(09-07-2018 09:37 AM)usffan Wrote:  While not Duke or Northwestern, Nebraska is leaps and bounds ahead of Louisville.

Academically, Nebraska is far closer to Louisville than it is to the best academic institutions (public or private) in either the Big Ten or ACC.

You like the US News rankings, so look at the comparison between Nebraska and Louisville there. Not much difference.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=157289

(09-07-2018 12:48 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 12:39 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 12:31 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 12:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 11:56 AM)usffan Wrote:  Do you even believe half of the stuff you write? First off, Nebraska was added to the AAU in 1909. Who were they stunting for, Teddy Roosevelt?

Second, it's easy to dismiss the notion that the B1G is better off academically if you simply refuse to believe any of the barometers used to measure such a thing. For example, I can claim to be the most attractive man on the planet and simply refuse to believe anybody else's evidence to the contrary.



In this thread, I've already provided two different indices for evaluating academic standing that people choose to dismiss. So I'll go with a third one (which also has its flaws but I believe to be relevant here since we're talking in part about research coalitions). Namely, endowments. Counting Chicago, who is a full participant in the Big Ten Academic Consortium, the B1G have 10 of the top 50 endowments of all North American universities compared with 5 from the ACC (6 if you count Notre Dame). In fact, prior to the last expansion, every member of the B1G had an endowment north of $1BB, and the addition of Maryland and Rutgers added two members with endowments of $900MM+. That's still more than 6 members of the ACC have (NC State, Miami, VT, FSU, Clemson and, oh hey, look who it is again, Louisville). So by 3 different measurable comparisons, the B1G comes out on top of the ACC. So unless your sole criteria for evaluating the academic qualities of these different conferences is on the number of Confederate statues they have within a 5 mile radius of campus, there's simply no comparison.

I find it funny that you are simultaneously arguing that the ACC has higher academic standing than the B1G AND that they took in Louisville (who we all agree is the weakest link in this discussion) over UConn. You really can't have it both ways.

Finally, to simplify South Carolina's exit from the ACC to be exclusively about SAT scores is ridiculous. Frank McQuire cared far less about SAT scores than he did about Tobacco Road's undue influence and the fact that his top 10 teams were denied a chance of going to the NCAA tournament because conferences were limited to a single participant.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go take a Silkwood shower after having to defend the B1G, a conference to whom I have absolutely no allegiance.



USFFan

I don't know where you get your information, but most of it's wrong.

Nebraska joining AAU in 1909:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/education/03aau.html

Academic endowments:

https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2015/...ments.html

You can look up the USNWR and ARWU links on your own.

The South Carolina stuff comes from a friend who's a USC fan who told me that 100 times. Don't have a link to all the info.

You can quibble about a thing here or there, but I daresay that "most of it's wrong" is, funny enough, wrong.

USFFan

The fact that you can not seem to find primary information on the internet speaks to a poor education. One of the points of a college degree is the supposed ability to research a topic and produce some synthesized understanding. I don't need someone with as South Florida community college degree, with a friend who is a Sandlapper, lecturing me about the ACC.

Wow, I posted links to all but one facet, and the response I get is an ad hominem attack on both myself, may alma mater and what I must presume is also an insult of the University of South Carolina, even though a quick Google search found links to at least a half dozen "reasons" for South Carolina leaving the ACC, one of which is exactly what I said. I'll be sure to ignore your posts from now on.

Oh, and you're right, you don't need me lecturing you. Feel free to ignore me, too. But at least I'm posting and backing up what I post, rather than resorting to name calling.

USFFan

You don't even comprehend the difference between the University of MD College Park, and the UM System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University...f_Maryland


U of Maryland at College Park only has an endowment of a little over 500M.


You have been looking at co-mingled numbers for MD that included MDCP and other institutions like UM in Baltimore, etc, etc. The system has a billion under management. https://thebestschools.org/features/rich...-research/


When you look up UNC Chapel Hill and NC State you see that UNC has 3 Billion and NC State a Billion - you don't see these institutions co-mingled and reporting 4 Billion. UMCP has serious fiscal problems and has had them for decades. I just assumed you knew this so that's part of the reason I insulted you. Sorry

(09-06-2018 07:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-06-2018 06:17 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-06-2018 03:44 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-06-2018 03:37 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Shows the lengths the ACC was willing to go to not add UConn, and if you cross a line once it;s much easier to cross it a second time.

Eh, it was more a display of the leverage a couple of schools could have with no GOR in place and the Big 12 sitting there with openings (and that's why ESPN intimidated the Big 12 into giving up the pro rata clause for essentially nothing - those four spots were intended for FSU, Clemson, UNC, and Duke, not AAC schools the network already had the rights to at one-tenth the cost). I don't think it's a coincidence that a GOR got worked out in the wake of that decision.

LOL

Clemson would rather temporarily cripple their program than permanently cripple it by elevating UConn as a peer.

If you're implying that Clemson still has the ability to threaten to leave: They don't. ESPN made sure of that.

Think what you want.

Clemson would rather temporarily cripple their program by forgoing the rights to our home games than permanently cripple our program by sharing a conference with a football black hole like UConn.

(09-07-2018 01:32 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 09:37 AM)usffan Wrote:  While not Duke or Northwestern, Nebraska is leaps and bounds ahead of Louisville.

Academically, Nebraska is far closer to Louisville than it is to the best academic institutions (public or private) in either the Big Ten or ACC.

You like the US News rankings, so look at the comparison between Nebraska and Louisville there. Not much difference.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=157289

124 <<< 165. 36% 4 year graduation rate vs. 28%. More selective vs. selective. I consider more than "not much difference."

USFFan

(09-07-2018 02:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 01:32 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 09:37 AM)usffan Wrote:  While not Duke or Northwestern, Nebraska is leaps and bounds ahead of Louisville.

Academically, Nebraska is far closer to Louisville than it is to the best academic institutions (public or private) in either the Big Ten or ACC.

You like the US News rankings, so look at the comparison between Nebraska and Louisville there. Not much difference.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=157289

124 <<< 165. 36% 4 year graduation rate vs. 28%. More selective vs. selective. I consider more than "not much difference."

USFFan

Duke #9, Northwestern #11, Virginia #25, Michigan #28. Nebraska is much closer to Louisville than any of these, as I said above.

Nebraska's 4 year graduation rate is 36%. Virginia's is 88%. Michigan's is 76%. Again, Nebraska is much closer to Louisville than it is to the top of the Big Ten or ACC.

(09-07-2018 03:02 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 02:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 01:32 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 09:37 AM)usffan Wrote:  While not Duke or Northwestern, Nebraska is leaps and bounds ahead of Louisville.

Academically, Nebraska is far closer to Louisville than it is to the best academic institutions (public or private) in either the Big Ten or ACC.

You like the US News rankings, so look at the comparison between Nebraska and Louisville there. Not much difference.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=157289

124 <<< 165. 36% 4 year graduation rate vs. 28%. More selective vs. selective. I consider more than "not much difference."

USFFan

Duke #9, Northwestern #11, Virginia #25, Michigan #28. Nebraska is much closer to Louisville than any of these, as I said above.

Nebraska's 4 year graduation rate is 36%. Virginia's is 88%. Michigan's is 76%. Again, Nebraska is much closer to Louisville than it is to the top of the Big Ten or ACC.

I can completely agree with that. But the point is that Louisville is much closer to a school like the University of Houston (with a 23% four year graduation rate) than it is to even the second lowest rated schools in the ACC (Florida State and NC State).

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=225511

While I'm not arguing that Nebraska = Harvard, they're far closer to the next two schools up the list in the B1G (Indiana and Michigan State) than Louisville is from any of these schools.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/com..._id=171100

USFFan

(09-07-2018 02:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Think what you want.

Clemson would rather temporarily cripple their program by forgoing the rights to our home games than permanently cripple our program by sharing a conference with a football black hole like UConn.

It's refreshing when people just come right out and show they don't know what they're talking about. No, Clemson isn't going to voluntarily give up their revenue into the mid-thirties to avoid playing a basketball school in football once every four years. Considering the only way UConn would be joining is if Notre Dame have up independence (and they won't) - No, adding Notre Dame and UConn's football teams would not cripple any ACC programs.

(09-07-2018 03:30 PM)Bogg Wrote:  It's refreshing when people just come right out and show they don't know what they're talking about. No, Clemson isn't going to voluntarily give up their revenue into the mid-thirties to avoid playing a basketball school in football once every four years. Considering the only way UConn would be joining is if Notre Dame have up independence (and they won't) - No, adding Notre Dame and UConn's football teams would not cripple any ACC programs.

Serious question: How would UCONN be a more appealing pairing with Notre Dame than ... Cincinnati? Or West Virginia? WVU would cause another heated spat over academics, because admission of WVU would be the equivalent of shooting academics in the head repeatedly. But I think that would only strengthen Cincinnati's case as the compromise candidate and geographical bridge to South Bend.

(09-07-2018 03:36 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 03:30 PM)Bogg Wrote:  It's refreshing when people just come right out and show they don't know what they're talking about. No, Clemson isn't going to voluntarily give up their revenue into the mid-thirties to avoid playing a basketball school in football once every four years. Considering the only way UConn would be joining is if Notre Dame have up independence (and they won't) - No, adding Notre Dame and UConn's football teams would not cripple any ACC programs.

Serious question: How would UCONN be a more appealing pairing with Notre Dame than ... Cincinnati? Or West Virginia? WVU would cause another heated spat over academics, because admission of WVU would be the equivalent of shooting academics in the head repeatedly. But I think that would only strengthen Cincinnati's case as the compromise candidate and geographical bridge to South Bend.

I've never said that UConn would be a shoe-in for the ACC or that they'd 100% be the next team up. I'm actually on record somewhere on this board (not this thread) predicting that the ACC's #16 will be Texas olympics while Texas football gets the Notre Dame treatment so they can keep their TV channel in a 16 full/14 football setup. I'm just responding to why UConn is where it is, because there are some message-board narratives that ignore available evidence (like Pitt getting an invite despite being a primary on the lawsuit).

That's all fine by me, btw - if you're a basketball program in the ACC you're only ever at best a second-tier citizen behind Duke/UNC. I understand that the financial reality is that so long as UConn fields a football program they would have to accept any invitation to the ACC or B1G, but I'm pretty convinced that with the Big East chugging along as a high-major basketball conference winning titles the best home for UConn basketball is the Big East, full stop. A UConn program back on track would be positioned to battle Villanova in MSG on an annual basis to be the king of basketball in the northeast. It's actually not that far off from your GT football stance regarding the B1G - what's most lucrative isn't always what's the best platform to succeed. Connecticut football is fine as a thing to do on some fall afternoons, but it shouldn't be the primary focus.

(09-07-2018 03:30 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 02:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Think what you want.

Clemson would rather temporarily cripple their program by forgoing the rights to our home games than permanently cripple our program by sharing a conference with a football black hole like UConn.

It's refreshing when people just come right out and show they don't know what they're talking about. No, Clemson isn't going to voluntarily give up their revenue into the mid-thirties to avoid playing a basketball school in football once every four years. Considering the only way UConn would be joining is if Notre Dame have up independence (and they won't) - No, adding Notre Dame and UConn's football teams would not cripple any ACC programs.

This is all hypothetical and kinda far fetched, but IF ND football joined the ACC before 2037 (which is doubtful), I don't think that the Irish would be pushing for UConn's admittance to the ACC.

There is no relationship between the two schools, except maybe a cool/cold/bad one.

ND would have no real reason to want UConn in the ACC. ND recruits some in that state and in New England, but it is not a football recruiting hotbed.

UConn football is bad and doesn't seem likely to get better to the point that it is a TV money making asset for the ACC.

I think that even in an age of cord cutting, ACC Network and content/brand driven expansion, UConn basketball would not be enough to overcome the deficiencies in UConn football, money wise.

ND would not have the complete say in such a scenario, but enough that I think that some school other than UConn would be pushed for #16. (Cincy, Navy/Georgetown, WVU?).

I also think that schools like FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech, North Carolina State and Miami would be opposed to the idea of UConn joining the ACC.

I hate to bring this up again, but.......................lawsuit.

UConn as NO CHANCE of ever being invited to join the ACC.

(09-08-2018 07:50 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This is all hypothetical and kinda far fetched, but IF ND football joined the ACC before 2037 (which is doubtful), I don't think that the Irish would be pushing for UConn's admittance to the ACC.

There is no relationship between the two schools, except maybe a cool/cold/bad one.

ND would have no real reason to want UConn in the ACC. ND recruits some in that state and in New England, but it is not a football recruiting hotbed.

UConn football is bad and doesn't seem likely to get better to the point that it is a TV money making asset for the ACC.

I think that even in an age of cord cutting, ACC Network and content/brand driven expansion, UConn basketball would not be enough to overcome the deficiencies in UConn football, money wise.

ND would not have the complete say in such a scenario, but enough that I think that some school other than UConn would be pushed for #16. (Cincy, Navy/Georgetown, WVU?).

I also think that schools like FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech, North Carolina State and Miami would be opposed to the idea of UConn joining the ACC.

Alright, well....can you think up another scenario where UConn would be joining the ACC? The point wasn't that UConn and ND are joined at the hip, it's that the only way the ACC adds another member is if they're going to 16 in football because ND brought their football program in-house. In that scenario you could pair ND with literally any school and ACC football still comes out ahead (because the original comment was that Clemson would be athletically crippled if they had to share a conference with UConn, such that they'd give up something like 16 years' worth of TV money to get away).

(09-08-2018 08:11 AM)XLance Wrote:  I hate to bring this up again, but.......................lawsuit.

UConn as NO CHANCE of ever being invited to join the ACC.

I mean, this stuff is all out there with people quoted and everything. UConn was one of the original targets of the ACC the last round of expansion. The ACC wound up taking the other primary on the lawsuit. The "But Lawsuit!" argument mostly exists on message boards because it's something good for the Internet Outrage Brigade to get indignant about. It's clear why what happened happened, so at least make the effort to be correct.

http://archive.boston.com/sports/college...?page=full

Quote:The first target was Syracuse, which had been on the original ACC expansion list eight years ago. The Orangemen, like BC, were disappointed when they didn’t make the final cut, passed over for Virginia Tech and Miami.
Under coach Jim Boeheim, Syracuse was clearly one of the elite basketball teams in the country and would boost the ACC’s stature in that sport.
The second target was Connecticut, which was part of the Northeast footprint the ACC wanted, and was coming off the daily double of a BCS bid in football and a championship in men’s basketball (the third for Jim Calhoun).
In addition, the women’s basketball program under Geno Auriemma had established itself as the most dominant in the sport over the past 15 years.
...
DeFilippo does not deny that BC opposed the inclusion of UConn.
“We didn’t want them in,’’ he said. “It was a matter of turf. We wanted to be the New England team.’’
...
Veteran Big East observers could only shake their heads at the irony. Pittsburgh, led by president Mark Nordenberg, was one of BC’s strongest critics when it left the Big East. It blasted BC when it left after being rejected by the ACC the first time and then regrouping with the other Big East schools to formulate a battle plan for survival, with Nordenberg describing BC as the “fox in the henhouse.’’
What prompted the lawsuit by UConn and Pitt was not the jump to the ACC. All the schools involved, including UConn, conceded that if they had been called, they probably would have done the same thing. What caused the rage was the timing, which was after the initial rejection and during what Big East schools considered confidential strategy sessions."

So, UConn appears to be locked out of the ACC. They won't be a target for the B1G. Thus, their optimal situation appears to be a Big 12/AAC merger, minus Texas/Oklahoma and possibly others?

Putting AAU quibbling between the ACC and the Big Ten aside I'd like to revisit fall of 2011. I think that if Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Louisville, and Cincinnati all announced impending departures and considering th Big 12 needed at least one of the 3 they poached to join for fall 2012 I think we likely would have seen the whole football side collapse.

The Catholic 7 and ND would have had little incentive to rebuild the way that Rutgers, UConn, and USF desired. Not only would there be little appetite for football driven expansion but the timing would be rough. They'd need at least one new school to sign on for 2012 and a total of 5 by 2013. There's also the added difficulty of finding schools willing to take a chance on joining a totally gutted league.

Let's say the basketball schools say no more full members. You're looking at Temple, UMass, Navy, Army, and Villanova upgrading to FBS as your initial phone calls and if Navy couldn't commit until 2015 I'm guessing Army would face similar difficulties so they can't solve the initial need.

My guess is that the last 3 schools are forced to prepare for life as independents or making FB affiliate relationships if not for the 2012 season, definitely the 2013.

Assuming by November 2012 that Big East football never was able to get a survival plan in place one is no longer necessary as both Rutgers and UConn found P5 homes. USF moves to C-USA. Assuming that we are looking at the same expansion candidates that C-USA chose in real life we are looking at #14 coming from the ranks of ODU, Charlotte, FIU, UNT, UTSA, and LA Tech. UNT and FIU would be unnecessary redundancies. I'm guessing the addition of an eastern school probably merits that they balance it with a western one so either LA Tech or UTSA gets the call. The SBC is untouched but the WAC gets knocked down to 6 football schools and the need for a rebuild becomes even more evident. I'm not sure if they manage to find western schools to do it or if they have to pull in football affiliates from the southern schools who no longer had a SBC or C-USA slots they could backfill.

(09-08-2018 11:22 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  So, UConn appears to be locked out of the ACC. They won't be a target for the B1G. Thus, their optimal situation appears to be a Big 12/AAC merger, minus Texas/Oklahoma and possibly others?

That's what it looks like to me, but I still wouldn't call it optimal. If football is still going to drive decision making their best-case is basically half the AAC jumping ship in around 2025 to join up with the leftover half of the Big 12 after ESPN buys the top programs a la carte.

I think the most interesting scenario would be what if Notre Dame joined the Catholic 7 instead of the ACC. Who gets left out of Xavier, Butler and Creighton? Or do they go to 12, does Saint Louis get the magic ticket for #12?

(09-08-2018 03:57 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  I think the most interesting scenario would be what if Notre Dame joined the Catholic 7 instead of the ACC. Who gets left out of Xavier, Butler and Creighton? Or do they go to 12, does Saint Louis get the magic ticket for #12?

Creighton becomes the odd man out. I'm actually a little shocked that ND shackled itself to the ACC with the obligation of 5 games a year and the tricky rule that prevents them from joining any other conference for football until the next millennium.

(09-08-2018 05:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-08-2018 03:57 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  I think the most interesting scenario would be what if Notre Dame joined the Catholic 7 instead of the ACC. Who gets left out of Xavier, Butler and Creighton? Or do they go to 12, does Saint Louis get the magic ticket for #12?

Creighton becomes the odd man out. I'm actually a little shocked that ND shackled itself to the ACC with the obligation of 5 games a year and the tricky rule that prevents them from joining any other conference for football until the next millennium.

I don't think Creighton, or anyone, gets left out. They stick to 11 and play a 20-game complete round-robin in basketball.

(09-08-2018 03:57 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  I think the most interesting scenario would be what if Notre Dame joined the Catholic 7 instead of the ACC. Who gets left out of Xavier, Butler and Creighton? Or do they go to 12, does Saint Louis get the magic ticket for #12?

Probably Butler is left out. ND won't want in-state competition.

(09-08-2018 08:11 AM)XLance Wrote:  I hate to bring this up again, but.......................lawsuit.

UConn as NO CHANCE of ever being invited to join the ACC.

Agreed, UConn is a non-starter. Not only will the southern football schools vote 'No', BC and SU will vote 'No' as well. I feel bad for them and their fans since I believe they have one of the strongest athletic departments but even that is in decline now due to their circumstances. It is what it is.

Cheers,
Neil