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A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
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Fighting Muskie Online
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A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

It would have been pioneering for the day and I'm not sure if the value was there. Temple was already being booted. If UConn carried through with their plans to move up they join Temple as a MAC FB affiliate.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2018 09:34 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
10-08-2018 09:33 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
I’m sure there’s people that hate the idea or reasons why it couldn’t or wouldn’t have happened but I like it.

Atlantic: Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Maryland*, Miami
Coastal: Florida St, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Duke, Wake Forest, Virginia

*Maryland was sent to old Big East division since it split from the ACC in our timeline*

Connecticut and Temple as football-only members of the MAC may have happened if they could stay in the Big East for all other sports. If not, I could see them joining CUSA in 2005 and we might’ve had:

West: TCU, SMU, Houston, Tulane, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB, Navy*
East: Connecticut, Temple, Cincinnati, Louisville, East Carolina, South Florida, Central Florida, Army*

*Football-only
10-08-2018 10:10 PM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
Isn't this all, with minor adjustments, functionally what happened anyway? Big East Football and the ACC more or less merged, with the ACC nameplate on the door, and UConn/Temple joined CUSA. The non-football schools have the Big East brand. That's where we're at now in real life.
10-08-2018 10:16 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 09:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

It would have been pioneering for the day and I'm not sure if the value was there. Temple was already being booted. If UConn carried through with their plans to move up they join Temple as a MAC FB affiliate.

Because the the Big East would kinda cease to exist? It would be like the USA giving China the entire west coast of the USA for nothing.
10-08-2018 10:24 PM
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 09:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

It would have been pioneering for the day and I'm not sure if the value was there. Temple was already being booted. If UConn carried through with their plans to move up they join Temple as a MAC FB affiliate.

It would have made the ACC Network much easier to start, as it would have every state from Massachusetts down to Florida, including Pennsylvania, Maryland and New Jersey, excluding the other New England states. The problem is the ACC was always focused on getting Notre Dame to join and the efforts were aimed at getting them comfortable enough to associate with them. Other issues are that the old core ACC have problems with WVU and don't care about Rutgers.

Virginia Tech and Miami are acceptable because those two focus on football, which is the point of expansion.

The Big Ten would probably have no choice but to expand out of the Big 8, taking Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa State and Oklahoma. Colorado would still join the PAC and the UT-Austin would have a tough choice to make.
10-09-2018 01:32 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 09:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

It would have been pioneering for the day and I'm not sure if the value was there. Temple was already being booted. If UConn carried through with their plans to move up they join Temple as a MAC FB affiliate.


The Big East attempted a "football" only merger with the ACC both in 1990 as well as the late 90s, which would have kept the basketball separate for both leagues. The ACC was never interested in that kind of set-up. In terms of all-sports set-up, the Big East had no wish to give up Syracuse in basketball and the ACC was never a front-runner in terms of size of conference, they were always a follower.

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2018 04:22 AM by OrangeDude.)
10-09-2018 04:20 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #7
RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 09:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

What kind of "counter proposal" gives the other party MORE than they asked for, in exchange for LESS than they originally offered to give them?

That is like Peter Griffin style bartering...
10-09-2018 01:00 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 10:16 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Isn't this all, with minor adjustments, functionally what happened anyway? Big East Football and the ACC more or less merged, with the ACC nameplate on the door, and UConn/Temple joined CUSA. The non-football schools have the Big East brand. That's where we're at now in real life.

Not exactly.

In the real world, Louisville & Notre Dame joined the ACC instead of Rutgers & West Virginia.

I think the ACC would have preferred the OP's proposed setup, as long as Notre Dame was along for the ride with a similar deal to what they have in the real world today.

But methinks Notre Dame would have been quite happy in a 10-team Catholic-only all-sports conference (ND + C7 + Creighton + Xavier).
10-09-2018 03:14 PM
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MrCincy Offline
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Post: #9
RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
The AAC League: What would be wrong with these teams in our conference?
East: UConn, UMass, Temple, ECU, USF UCF, Cincinnati, Army FB only & VCU
West: SMU, Houston, Tulane, Colorado State, Air Force, Tulsa, Memphis, Navy FB only & Wichita State
I would love to have BYU, Boise State, SDSU & UNLV, but I don't think they would join the AAC.
10-09-2018 07:23 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
I think the perk for the ACC taking more schools than they intended in 2004-2005 is Syracuse basketball in the fold and MARKETS! NYC, Pittsburgh, and the Western NY markets are all nice pick ups and would lend itself well to a conference network.

The ACC 16, 2005-2012, would be equal or greater in basketball than the Big East 16 in the same period.

At the time it would be 3 additional AAU schools for a conference that cares about academics.
10-09-2018 08:33 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-09-2018 08:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think the perk for the ACC taking more schools than they intended in 2004-2005 is Syracuse basketball in the fold and MARKETS! NYC, Pittsburgh, and the Western NY markets are all nice pick ups and would lend itself well to a conference network.

The ACC 16, 2005-2012, would be equal or greater in basketball than the Big East 16 in the same period.

At the time it would be 3 additional AAU schools for a conference that cares about academics.

No it wouldn't have been equal or greater.
10-09-2018 08:59 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-08-2018 10:10 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I’m sure there’s people that hate the idea or reasons why it couldn’t or wouldn’t have happened but I like it.

Atlantic: Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Maryland*, Miami
Coastal: Florida St, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Duke, Wake Forest, Virginia

*Maryland was sent to old Big East division since it split from the ACC in our timeline*

Connecticut and Temple as football-only members of the MAC may have happened if they could stay in the Big East for all other sports. If not, I could see them joining CUSA in 2005 and we might’ve had:

West: TCU, SMU, Houston, Tulane, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB, Navy*
East: Connecticut, Temple, Cincinnati, Louisville, East Carolina, South Florida, Central Florida, Army*

*Football-only
So basically Louisville and West Virginia would be swapped between the ACC and Big 12, as I thing the Big 12 would bail Louisville and TCU out of C-USA. The American would be known as C-USA with Southern Miss and UAB instead of Tulsa. I think Army would have still checked out (especially with Louisville running roughshod over C-USA), and Navy would have never joined since this wasn’t a BCS AQ conference at the time.

The WAC would have Rice, UTEP, Tulsa, and Louisiana Tech, all currently in C-USA; New Mexico State may still be a full member of the Sun Belt. UTSA probably still would have gone to the WAC, although I’m not sure about Texas State. North Texas probably would still be in the Sun Belt, although a nearly all-Texas WAC might have been too tempting to pass up.

It’s possible the WAC could wind up as a nearly all-Texas conference:
UTEP, UTSA, North Texas, Rice, Texas State, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, Idaho

At that point you ask Missouri State and Texas-Arlington how serious they are about moving to FBS, and work out a plan to run Idaho off to the Big Sky. The other route of course would be to go after New Mexico State, Louisiana, and/or Arkansas State from the Sun Belt.
10-09-2018 10:14 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-09-2018 10:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(10-08-2018 10:10 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I’m sure there’s people that hate the idea or reasons why it couldn’t or wouldn’t have happened but I like it.

Atlantic: Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Maryland*, Miami
Coastal: Florida St, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Duke, Wake Forest, Virginia

*Maryland was sent to old Big East division since it split from the ACC in our timeline*

Connecticut and Temple as football-only members of the MAC may have happened if they could stay in the Big East for all other sports. If not, I could see them joining CUSA in 2005 and we might’ve had:

West: TCU, SMU, Houston, Tulane, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB, Navy*
East: Connecticut, Temple, Cincinnati, Louisville, East Carolina, South Florida, Central Florida, Army*

*Football-only
So basically Louisville and West Virginia would be swapped between the ACC and Big 12, as I thing the Big 12 would bail Louisville and TCU out of C-USA. The American would be known as C-USA with Southern Miss and UAB instead of Tulsa. I think Army would have still checked out (especially with Louisville running roughshod over C-USA), and Navy would have never joined since this wasn’t a BCS AQ conference at the time.

The WAC would have Rice, UTEP, Tulsa, and Louisiana Tech, all currently in C-USA; New Mexico State may still be a full member of the Sun Belt. UTSA probably still would have gone to the WAC, although I’m not sure about Texas State. North Texas probably would still be in the Sun Belt, although a nearly all-Texas WAC might have been too tempting to pass up.

It’s possible the WAC could wind up as a nearly all-Texas conference:
UTEP, UTSA, North Texas, Rice, Texas State, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, Idaho

At that point you ask Missouri State and Texas-Arlington how serious they are about moving to FBS, and work out a plan to run Idaho off to the Big Sky. The other route of course would be to go after New Mexico State, Louisiana, and/or Arkansas State from the Sun Belt.

I doubt the XII bails them in 2005 but maybe later.
10-09-2018 10:45 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
I agree, no reason for the XII to take them prior to losing Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M, and Missouri.
10-10-2018 05:26 AM
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Poster Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
You’re assuming that the ACC wanted to go to 16, which is a pretty big assumption. They didn’t even go to 14 until 2011. And that was mostly done to stabilize the league and prevent anybody from leaving for the SEC as A&M’s eastern partner. I don’t think the ACC had the slightest interest in expanding to 14 in the 00s, let alone 16.
10-10-2018 12:12 PM
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-09-2018 04:20 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2018 09:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if instead of suing to try to block the ACC raiding the Big East football conference if the Big East schools counter proposed a plan that would have sent Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and WVU to the ACC along with VT, Miami, and BC.

It would have been pioneering for the day and I'm not sure if the value was there. Temple was already being booted. If UConn carried through with their plans to move up they join Temple as a MAC FB affiliate.


The Big East attempted a "football" only merger with the ACC both in 1990 as well as the late 90s, which would have kept the basketball separate for both leagues. The ACC was never interested in that kind of set-up. In terms of all-sports set-up, the Big East had no wish to give up Syracuse in basketball and the ACC was never a front-runner in terms of size of conference, they were always a follower.

Cheers,
Neil

This x 1000
10-10-2018 12:15 PM
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McKinney Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-09-2018 07:23 PM)MrCincy Wrote:  The AAC League: What would be wrong with these teams in our conference?
East: UConn, UMass, Temple, ECU, USF UCF, Cincinnati, Army FB only & VCU
West: SMU, Houston, Tulane, Colorado State, Air Force, Tulsa, Memphis, Navy FB only & Wichita State
I would love to have BYU, Boise State, SDSU & UNLV, but I don't think they would join the AAC.

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10-10-2018 12:22 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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RE: A bold counter offer: the 2005 ACC-16
(10-10-2018 12:12 PM)Poster Wrote:  You’re assuming that the ACC wanted to go to 16, which is a pretty big assumption. They didn’t even go to 14 until 2011. And that was mostly done to stabilize the league and prevent anybody from leaving for the SEC as A&M’s eastern partner. I don’t think the ACC had the slightest interest in expanding to 14 in the 00s, let alone 16.

Well interestingly some ACC officials did talk about eventually going beyond 12 back in 2003, but after stabilizing at 12 for 5-7 years first.

Had FSU and Miami been football powerhouses in the mid-to-late 00s like they were previously they may never have expanded beyond 12 this decade. A bad TV contract negotiated in 2010 (which was actually a good contract by the standards of the time and turned out only to be bad by subsequent TV contracts negotiated shortly after) put them behind the 8-ball to try and catch-up or become a major victim of the conference realignment chaos of 2011 and 2012.

It also helped that the Big East spurned the ESPN offer on the table which gave the WWL in sports an incentive for the ACC to weaken that league even further.

As we get further and further away from that chaotic time period though, it seems for the most part what was meant to be came about.

Cheers,
Neil
10-10-2018 12:49 PM
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