(12-08-2018 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(12-08-2018 10:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-08-2018 10:18 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It would have been interesting had the league been proactive and really pushed to get to 12 football members, while respecting and preserving the strength of the basketball side, before 2010. Memphis would have easily been approved as a full-member, especially coming their NCAA Championship game appearance with Calipari and Rose in 2008. Temple could have been re-added as a football-only, which would have balanced out Villanova's membership in Philadelphia, especially since they were coming off a 9-4 season in 2009. Navy would not have come along unless there was a Texas footprint, so they are out. However, Army could have been added in their place, which would have given the Big East access to the Army/Navy game (not unlike the AAC's access to it today). Finally, ECU can get added as a football-only, as they were back-to-back C-USA Champions, and would have given the football schools access to North Carolina. To cap it off, Big East Football could have held its championship game at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, or at MetLife Stadium in New York City. I am fairly confident that the league would have maintained its status as a power league in that scenario, while also maintaining its Northeast footprint for its schools.

Big East Football - North
Army
UConn
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
West Virginia

Big East Football - South
Cincinnati
ECU
Louisville
Memphis
Temple
USF

Big East Basketball
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Georgetown
Louisville
Marquette
Memphis
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Seton Hall
St. John's
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia
USF

No Providence?

He's retroactively throwing them out after their loss last night to UMass in basketball :)

My mistake. Fixed. Never want to leave out our Friars.

Bad loss last night, but plenty of great games today. Providence still has Texas before conference play begins too.

(12-08-2018 11:44 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(12-08-2018 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(12-08-2018 10:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-08-2018 10:18 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It would have been interesting had the league been proactive and really pushed to get to 12 football members, while respecting and preserving the strength of the basketball side, before 2010. Memphis would have easily been approved as a full-member, especially coming their NCAA Championship game appearance with Calipari and Rose in 2008. Temple could have been re-added as a football-only, which would have balanced out Villanova's membership in Philadelphia, especially since they were coming off a 9-4 season in 2009. Navy would not have come along unless there was a Texas footprint, so they are out. However, Army could have been added in their place, which would have given the Big East access to the Army/Navy game (not unlike the AAC's access to it today). Finally, ECU can get added as a football-only, as they were back-to-back C-USA Champions, and would have given the football schools access to North Carolina. To cap it off, Big East Football could have held its championship game at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, or at MetLife Stadium in New York City. I am fairly confident that the league would have maintained its status as a power league in that scenario, while also maintaining its Northeast footprint for its schools.

Big East Football - North
Army
UConn
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
West Virginia

Big East Football - South
Cincinnati
ECU
Louisville
Memphis
Temple
USF

Big East Basketball
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Georgetown
Louisville
Marquette
Memphis
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Seton Hall
St. John's
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia
USF

No Providence?

He's retroactively throwing them out after their loss last night to UMass in basketball :)

My mistake. Fixed. Never want to leave out our Friars.

Bad loss last night, but plenty of great games today. Providence still has Texas before conference play begins too.

Yeah love today's schedule....

For PC- Texas isn't quite what they seemed a few weeks ago. Lost 2 in a row after the Michigan St loss- and have Purdue tomorrow....

My dream still is this:

Cincinnati
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
UConn
USF
West Virginia

Boise State
Houston
San Diego State
SMU
UCF
TCU

Currently ranked: #6 UCF, #16 West Virginia, #20 Syracuse, #25 Boise State

Cincinnati, Houston, Louisville, Pittsburgh, San Diego State and TCU have also spent a lot of weeks in the rankings in recent years.

Basketball would still be the best league. I'd keep / invite four (assuming Boise State and San Diego State were football only) of the C7 for basketball.. Georgetown, Notre Dame, Villanova and either Marquette or St. John's. Nothing against Depaul, Providence or Seton Hall but I wouldn't want to go past 16 teams.

I'd be happy to get Buffalo a spot in that conference too.

(12-06-2018 10:56 PM)megadrone Wrote:  No major bowl tie in for the big East -- G-ish status but could have placed a team in the CFP every so often. It's hard to see this group getting the Orange or Peach bowl.

There were a lot of complaints when Big East 2.0 was allowed to stay in the BCS with its floater tie-in. That was barely allowed and the BE struggled to have a credible power bowl lineup for its #2/#3/#4 placed teams.

I think then a BE 3.0 grouping of 8 wouldn't have made the cut filled with newbies and left over programs.

(12-08-2018 01:55 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  There were a lot of complaints when Big East 2.0 was allowed to stay in the BCS with its floater tie-in. That was barely allowed and the BE struggled to have a credible power bowl lineup for its #2/#3/#4 placed teams.

I think then a BE 3.0 grouping of 8 wouldn't have made the cut filled with newbies and left over programs.

The new Big East had the third best non-conference record in football. I think they also had the best bowl record and a 5-3 BCS bowl record.

The complaints came from people who clearly didn't care about results and only cared that they didn't have a blue blood school.

If they would've went to 12 or 14 teams eventually like the one I laid out then it would've been a top notch conference.

The consensus seems to be "No they would not have remained a power conference in the CFP era." Let me throw out one final scenario. Hypothetically if BYU and Air Force had accepted the invitation to join the Big East for Football only, could that have saved the BEC's power status? This would have allowed Villanova to remain FCS for Football, and Temple would have never gotten invited back.

Here is the lineup:

Full Members:
USF
UCONN
Cincinnati
UCF
Houston
Memphis
SMU


Non-FB Members:
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St. John’s
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette

FB Only:
Boise St.
San Diego St.
Navy
BYU
Air Force

That would have given them 12 football teams, and 14 basketball teams.

WEST
SMU
Houston
Air Force (FB Only)
Boise St. (FB Only)
San Diego St. (FB Only)
BYU (FB Only)

EAST
UCONN
Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Navy (FB Only)

Could this lineup have kept power status? Keep in mind the BCS had 5 New Years Games (Including the National Championship), and the CFP has 6 New Years Games including 3 bowls with no conference contracts. Could they have kept their floating automatic bid to the CFP? Also this basketball lineup would have certainly garnered a good TV deal for the conference as a whole.

(12-10-2018 08:59 AM)prisonmike Wrote:  The consensus seems to be "No they would not have remained a power conference in the CFP era." Let me throw out one final scenario. Hypothetically if BYU and Air Force had accepted the invitation to join the Big East for Football only, could that have saved the BEC's power status? This would have allowed Villanova to remain FCS for Football, and Temple would have never gotten invited back.

Here is the lineup:

Full Members:
USF
UCONN
Cincinnati
UCF
Houston
Memphis
SMU


Non-FB Members:
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St. John’s
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette

FB Only:
Boise St.
San Diego St.
Navy
BYU
Air Force

That would have given them 12 football teams, and 14 basketball teams.

WEST
SMU
Houston
Air Force (FB Only)
Boise St. (FB Only)
San Diego St. (FB Only)
BYU (FB Only)

EAST
UCONN
Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Navy (FB Only)

Could this lineup have kept power status? Keep in mind the BCS had 5 New Years Games (Including the National Championship), and the CFP has 6 New Years Games including 3 bowls with no conference contracts. Could they have kept their floating automatic bid to the CFP? Also this basketball lineup would have certainly garnered a good TV deal for the conference as a whole.

That lineup wouldn't even have been able to keep FBS status. You need at least 8 full, FB-playing members, and you're one short.

(12-10-2018 09:10 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-10-2018 08:59 AM)prisonmike Wrote:  The consensus seems to be "No they would not have remained a power conference in the CFP era." Let me throw out one final scenario. Hypothetically if BYU and Air Force had accepted the invitation to join the Big East for Football only, could that have saved the BEC's power status? This would have allowed Villanova to remain FCS for Football, and Temple would have never gotten invited back.

Here is the lineup:

Full Members:
USF
UCONN
Cincinnati
UCF
Houston
Memphis
SMU


Non-FB Members:
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St. John’s
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette

FB Only:
Boise St.
San Diego St.
Navy
BYU
Air Force

That would have given them 12 football teams, and 14 basketball teams.

WEST
SMU
Houston
Air Force (FB Only)
Boise St. (FB Only)
San Diego St. (FB Only)
BYU (FB Only)

EAST
UCONN
Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Navy (FB Only)

Could this lineup have kept power status? Keep in mind the BCS had 5 New Years Games (Including the National Championship), and the CFP has 6 New Years Games including 3 bowls with no conference contracts. Could they have kept their floating automatic bid to the CFP? Also this basketball lineup would have certainly garnered a good TV deal for the conference as a whole.

That lineup wouldn't even have been able to keep FBS status. You need at least 8 full, FB-playing members, and you're one short.

BYU could have become a full member. Add Gonzaga to balance things out with another strong western member (and who would actually be a good cultural fit with the C7). (SDSU and Boise Olympics go to the Big West; Air Force Olympics join the WAC or Summit or something). Football division would remain the same. Basketball would grow to 16 teams.

Teams from the Eastern timezone would only be scheduled for the Gonzaga-BYU road trip once every 3 years or so.

I don't think an academy helps save power football status, though perhaps Navy doesn't particularly hurt it because of the vague "I don't want to seem unpatriotic" effect.

What you need there is Navy in the West rather than Air Force and some other school that helps in the East, and then you might be right on the edge, though it would still be touch and go.

I just do not think that school exists ... that is, if there was such a school, it would have already been in the old Big East. While the ACC edging into a position of being able to raid the old Big East left it badly wounded, it really seems like it was the geographical absurdity of the Big12 inviting West Virginia that really put the stake in the heart of the Old Big East.

The BE would have needed WV, Pitt & Syracuse to even have a shot at P6 status. The BE best shot would have been if WV, VT & Miami all stayed.

WV, VT, Miami, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, BC, Louisville, Cincinnati & UConn for a B12 style round robin schedule. If TCU could’ve been kept on board then maybe pair them with Houston for 11 & 12 but they would have been strong candidates for the B12. USF/UCF were still new on the scene but strong candidates for 11 & 12 along with Memphis in the mix. With the C7 & ND with a 4 or 5 game football agreement this group would have a good shot at P6 status.

Football:
Miami
WV
VT
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Louisville
Cincinnati
BC
Rutgers
UConn

Non football:
ND
Georgetown
Villanova
Marquette
St Johns
Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(12-06-2018 11:13 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 10:07 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  No, that line up would not have been considered a power conference. No Autonomy, no major bowl tie-in, and no guaranteed NY6 spot for their champion.

The real question is would the mostly original Big East still be a power conference.

North
-----
BC
UConn
Syracuse
Temple
Rutgers
South Florida

South
-----
Pitt
WVU
Cincy
Louisville
VT
Miami

8 of those 12 are in a power conferences today and Cincy is widely considered to be next on deck for a P5 invite. These teams did well and out performed the ACC back in the day. I think it would be P6 with the BE getting Autonomy, No major bowl tie in but a guaranteed spot in the NY6 for their champion.

I don't know if that's the "real question", but I'd split those teams up differently for better competitive balance. An ACC-style zipper alignment would likely be necessary:

Big: Boston College, Miami-FL, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia
East: Connecticut, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers, Virginia Tech

OR

Big: Boston College, Connecticut, Miami-FL, Rutgers, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
East: Syracuse, Cincinnati, South Florida, Temple, Louisville, Pittsburgh

Teams are listed in the same order as their protected crossover.

Some more thoughts on this alternate history alignment. Here the Big East obviously does not lose BC, Miami, and VT to the ACC. Instead they retain FB-only Temple, add UConn football, and expand, picking up Cincinnati and Louisville as full members and USF as FB-only. This gives 12 football members (and a CCG) and 16 basketball members.

Big East Football
Eastern: Cincinnati, Louisville, Pittsburgh, South Florida*, Temple*, West Virginia
Seaboard: Connecticut, Boston College, Syracuse, Miami-FL, Rutgers, Virginia Tech

* = FB only

The conference schedule is 8 games, with each team playing their 5 division mates, 1 protected crossover, and 2 rotating crossovers. Teams are listed above in the same order as their protected crossover.

Big East Basketball
Each team plays 3 protected opponents twice a year and the other 12 opponents once a year for a total of 18 conference games. Here are the protected opponents for each team:


What do you all think? I'm not too well-versed in Big East basketball rivalries, so I'm definitely open to rearranging the protected opponents.

Had the Big East been proactive in the early 2000's, before the ACC began raiding it, it likely would have survived as a power conference. The league had Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech and Temple (football-only) by 2002. They could have looked to add Cincinnati and Louisville as full members before the raid, as well as elevating UConn and East Carolina (football-only). This also would have prevented the league from adding non-football members in 2005 (DePaul and Marquette). It could have looked like this:

Big East North
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Big East South
Cincinnati
East Carolina
Louisville
Miami
Pittsburgh
Temple

(12-21-2018 11:51 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Had the Big East been proactive in the early 2000's, before the ACC began raiding it, it likely would have survived as a power conference. The league had Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech and Temple (football-only) by 2002. They could have looked to add Cincinnati and Louisville as full members before the raid, as well as elevating UConn and East Carolina (football-only). This also would have prevented the league from adding non-football members in 2005 (DePaul and Marquette). It could have looked like this:

Big East North
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Big East South
Cincinnati
East Carolina
Louisville
Miami
Pittsburgh
Temple

I don't know how this necessarily would have prevented defections to the ACC.

(12-07-2018 09:27 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Big East Football lost its long-term status as a power conference when it lost both Miami and Virginia Tech in in 2003. While Louisville, Cincinnati and USF all were incredibly strong additions for football (each had top-10 statuses at respective points), the reality is that rankings simply do not matter in the determinations and perceptions of power conferences. UCF's run over the past two years has proven and established that. Power leagues are anchored by blue-blood, power programs. While programs like Wake Forest, Rutgers, Kansas, Indiana, Oregon State, et. al. are not power programs, they are supported by their long-term associations with those types of programs. The Big East (circa 2012) was simply the final blow to the league as a true tweener conference, which lost that status when its automatic bowl tie-in was removed with the P5/G5 split.

The biggest problem in 2012 was that, due to the number of mass defections from Big East Football, there was a lot more added weight to the bottom of the league than the top. UCF, Navy, Memphis and Houston were all strong football additions to the league. However, other programs like Tulane, ECU, Tulsa and SMU, along with the steady downfall for UConn, have a strong impact towards the perception of the league. The power leagues can get away with the weak bottoms of their respective conferences. Established G5 leagues cannot. The other big problem facing the establishment of a true P6 conference is the lack of a clear power program that would help drive the reputation and perception of the said league. Even by taking the top of the AAC, along with the very top of the G5 (Boise State, SDSU, Fresno State, Army, et. al.), there still lacks a true anchor to drive the product. Long-term, I could envision a program like UCF becoming that (not unlike Miami's rise in the early 80's). However, by that point, UCF will have been taken by the ACC, SEC or Big 12, and the whole process gets blown up (once again).

Finally, it goes without saying, that the C7 would have wanted no part of that hypothetical league. The league's footprint was once again extended away from the NE, in addition to the acquisition of full members who simply did not put the resources into men's basketball, nor did they have the strong history or postseason success that the basketball league desired.

The team at the top is the key point. Miami made the Big East. Florida St. made the ACC. The Big East was doing ok with WVU and UL consistently ranked. But without 1 or 2 consistent teams along with a support cast, the perception as a power conference disappears.

(12-08-2018 11:55 AM)SUisBigEast4ever Wrote:  My dream still is this:

Cincinnati
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
UConn
USF
West Virginia

Boise State
Houston
San Diego State
SMU
UCF
TCU

Currently ranked: #6 UCF, #16 West Virginia, #20 Syracuse, #25 Boise State

Cincinnati, Houston, Louisville, Pittsburgh, San Diego State and TCU have also spent a lot of weeks in the rankings in recent years.

Basketball would still be the best league. I'd keep / invite four (assuming Boise State and San Diego State were football only) of the C7 for basketball.. Georgetown, Notre Dame, Villanova and either Marquette or St. John's. Nothing against Depaul, Providence or Seton Hall but I wouldn't want to go past 16 teams.

I'd be happy to get Buffalo a spot in that conference too.

Change the conference name and West Virginia and Syracuse are unranked with their record.

If Big East football was to survive you need the original eight football members, give temple full membership, and you need Penn St and ND. Penn st was always especially essential. Having a eastern league without PSU would be like having an SEC without Bama


Jackson

(12-21-2018 03:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:51 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Had the Big East been proactive in the early 2000's, before the ACC began raiding it, it likely would have survived as a power conference. The league had Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech and Temple (football-only) by 2002. They could have looked to add Cincinnati and Louisville as full members before the raid, as well as elevating UConn and East Carolina (football-only). This also would have prevented the league from adding non-football members in 2005 (DePaul and Marquette). It could have looked like this:

Big East North
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Big East South
Cincinnati
East Carolina
Louisville
Miami
Pittsburgh
Temple

I don't know how this necessarily would have prevented defections to the ACC.

Right. The ACC invited Miami and Virginia Tech to join in the summer of 2003. They would have accepted, as they actually did, no matter who was in the Big East at the time.

(12-24-2018 08:12 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 03:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:51 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Had the Big East been proactive in the early 2000's, before the ACC began raiding it, it likely would have survived as a power conference. The league had Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech and Temple (football-only) by 2002. They could have looked to add Cincinnati and Louisville as full members before the raid, as well as elevating UConn and East Carolina (football-only). This also would have prevented the league from adding non-football members in 2005 (DePaul and Marquette). It could have looked like this:

Big East North
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Big East South
Cincinnati
East Carolina
Louisville
Miami
Pittsburgh
Temple

I don't know how this necessarily would have prevented defections to the ACC.

Right. The ACC invited Miami and Virginia Tech to join in the summer of 2003. They would have accepted, as they actually did, no matter who was in the Big East at the time.

Yea, Miami and VT were always going to accept an ACC invite because of geography. It's that simple. Going further, even if Penn State had gotten admission to the Big East in the 80s, as a football-first institution they would have eventually accepted a Big 10 invite as well (and they were always the most obvious first expansion candidate for the Big 10). The biggest problem that the football side of the Big East ever had is that college football just isn't that big of a deal in the Northeast, and I don't think any sort of shoulda-woulda-coulda hindsight was ever going to change that reality.