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Fun with realignment
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rileylives Offline
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Post: #1
Fun with realignment
Let’s try and line up the future SEC, PAC, BIG and ACC shall we?

Let’s say these conferences break away from the G5 to form one tier. What do you get?

ACC Notre Dame, UCONN
SEC Oklahoma, Kansas
Big 16 Texas, WVU
PAC 16 Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Baylor, Texas Tech

So who’s left out?

Houston - Their only hope is if the reformed PAC whatever wants markets. They are fighting, IMHO with TCU, Baylor and Texas Tech.

Iowa State - Their location hurts. About the only conference I see wanting them would be the reformed BIG whatever. Could they get that spot over WVU? I don’t think so.

TCU - They fight the same battle as Houston.

UCF - There’s just not a logical fit for this upstart. SEC? I don’t think so. ACC? Again, Notre Dame has the edge, and I think they would want to add an established basketball program who naturally fits (UCONN). Their only hope is if the BIG whatever snags Notre Dame, but even then, their fighting for position against UCONN, Cincinnati and probably WVU.

Cincinnati - They could be in line for the ACC, but would fight that same uphill battle UCF fights.

I think those teams are on the outside.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 09:42 AM by rileylives.)
12-31-2018 09:36 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Fun with realignment
I'm not sure how I see the XII leftovers out at the end of the day. They have a few advantages in the discussion.

-All it takes is 8 to have an FBS football conference. If the XII was badly wounded losing 4-5 teams they could always rebuild by only 2 or 3 to 8 and still be a credible P5.

-They can take the best from East to West if needed. If they were down to just Iowa St, K-State, Oklahoma St, Baylor and TCU they could rebuild with Colorado St, Houston, Memphis and Cincinnati with something like BYU FB only to round things back out to 10. All additions with a 40,000+ seat stadium already in place.

-In the extreme case where the XII is just down to Iowa St, K-State and Baylor it could go back to 8 with SMU, Colorado St, Houston, Memphis and Cincinnati. That still gives the XII markets in Dallas and Houston, adds back in Colorado ect. Oklahoma St would be tough to replace.

XII has candidates and much more so than 20 years ago when SMU and Houston were down and out. They would have been ejected from the BCS for the rebuilding I am talking about above.
12-31-2018 10:25 AM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Fun with realignment
I love hypotheticals, but WVU to the BIG would happen under one condition:

1. WVU gets about $10 billion to invest in academic ventures, flips demographics with the state of Virginia, and their academic standing surpasses about 100 major universities that are in front of them. They are one of the lowest, if not the lowest, in academic standing among all of the P5. There is a reason that WVU has never even been mentioned in the wildest concoctions of realignment scenarios even though the are nestled between three existing BIG states. The BIG might take WVU if Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas all agreed to come contingent on WVU coming as well, which is also an alternate universe theory. Off the top of my head in no particular order, Texas, TCU, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Iowa State, Missouri, Kentucky, Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Duke, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Auburn, Vanderbilt, and probably even Buffalo would have to say no to the BIG before they would even throw WVU into the pool of expansion candidates. Even then, they would still compete in a pool with Louisville, Cincinnati, and Temple, and Louisville would win out that one as evidenced by their invite to the ACC rather than WVU. Bottom line is that WVU is not going to the BIG in this next phase of realignment. WVU needs generational growth in basically every facet of their institution except on the field/court performance.

Just a quick glance at a map shows that Texas essentially by itself to the BIG makes no logistical sense and would render them without even a whiff of a rival that makes any sense. Even their longest shot at a rival, Nebraska, seems to have left the Big 12 because they were fed up with Texas. If Texas was to move anywhere by themselves, I see the BIG as the least viable option in comparison to the SEC, ACC, or PAC.

The bottom line for Big 12 movement is going to be nothing less than a move by Texas. Even Oklahoma and Kansas can hypothetically leave, and all of the other Big 12 schools would stay with Texas because they would have no better option. Based on recent moves and financial dispositions, Texas and Oklahoma are the only Big 12 schools that any conference would take as standalone schools at this point. Kansas would likely get a stand alone invite from the other P5 conferences, but it may take some convincing. Other than that, none of the other 7 Big 12 schools move the needle enough as an entire package to get a standalone invite to the PAC, SEC, BIG, or ACC.

If we are talking reality (as far as these discussions go), I think below is what could happen to the Big 12 with the understanding that the Big 12 is the 3rd highest revenue conference and this would just be palatable, not desired, by the other conferences:

PAC - TCU, Texas Tech, Texas, Kansas State
BIG - Kansas, Iowa State
SEC - Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia, Baylor

Again, no one would be happy about these arrangements, but this is what I could think would happen if the other power conferences were forced to take Big 12 schools. To be honest, Baylor and West Virginia would have difficult times finding landing spots at all, and Texas Tech, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, and TCU would be tagalongs with a package including Texas and/or Oklahoma. I don't mean that disparagingly; it is just what the revenue numbers bear out. TCU has excellent overall revenue numbers and academic chops as an institution, but their economic impact for a regional conference would be low.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 11:21 AM by bigblueblindness.)
12-31-2018 11:11 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Fun with realignment
West Virginia has geography and rivalries going for it in the B1G discussion. Penn St and Maryland are instant rivalries for them.

But I think the 10 conference system is probably to stay because TV money has leveled off so its becoming more about the per school distribution. In both the A5 and G5 groupings membership for football is ranging from 14-10.

SEC 14
B1G 14
ACC 14
PAC 12
XII 10

CUSA 14
AAC 12
MWC 12
MAC 12
SBC 10

If there was to be a move such as the PAC to 16 with TT/UT/TCU/OU the ripple expansion becomes muted as it reaches downstream.

XII (Colorado St., Houston, SMU, Cincinnati)
AAC (Rice)
MWC (UTEP)

PAC 16
SEC 14
B1G 14
ACC 14
XII 10

CUSA 12
MWC 12
MAC 12
AAC 10
SBC 10

Major realignment by the PAC doesn't ripple down to the SBC, only just a little bit to the MWC and AAC who then in turn fix CUSA's excess school problem.

The big opportunity to move to FBS was at the beginning of this decade. Coastal won the lottery and JMU shot itself in the foot IMO.
12-31-2018 11:35 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Fun with realignment
Breaking up the Big 12:
Texas >>> Independent (ACC Olympic Sports)
Oklahoma >>> SEC
Oklahoma State >>> PAC
Texas Tech >>> PAC
Baylor >>> AAC
TCU >>> SEC
Kansas >>> B1G
Kansas State >>> PAC
Iowa State >>> B1G
West Virginia >>> ACC

ACC
North
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Atlantic
Duke
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Wake Forest
Virginia

South
Clemson
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami

Non-Football
Notre Dame
Texas

B1G
East
Indiana
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Northwestern
Ohio State
Penn State
Rutgers

West
Illinois
Iowa
Iowa State
Kansas
Minnesota
Nebraska
Purdue
Wisconsin

PAC
North
California
Oregon
Oregon State
Washington
Washington State

East
Colorado
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Texas Tech
Utah

South
Arizona
Arizona State
Stanford
UCLA
USC

SEC
East
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
Missouri
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

West
Alabama
Arkansas
Auburn
LSU
Ole Miss
Mississippi State
TCU
Texas A&M
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 04:56 PM by GoldenWarrior11.)
12-31-2018 04:53 PM
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toddjnsn Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Fun with realignment
Problem is, I can't see a conference getting 16 teams. Not unless they expand # of regular-season games (good luck with that; won't happen). It'll feed into less OOC games *or* you have too few games played in-conference.

14 is already "too much".

Splitting a conference into 4 divisions if it has 16 teams and has it's own playoff -- ugggh.

You do want a good amt of OOC play. You don't want it too isolated in a bubble for conference play. No way is going to get lower than 3 OOC games. Especially with G5 vs P5. Is that good G5 Conference having a great year better than that lower P5? I dunno anymore! We're only playing 2 OOC games!

Unless you make P5 into P4 and it being it's OWN FBS, while putting the G5 into it's own CFB sub-division -- not going to happen.

But let's say it does. :) And with an 8-team playoff obviously around the corner or the next corner, you don't want to be an Independent, as a Conf Championship gives you more room to make it in, and not playing one makes it easier to be scooted out as an at-large.

P4 (B12 crumbles):

P12 (+4 extra to make 16)
B1G (+2 extra to make 16)
SEC (+2 extra to make 16)
ACC (+1 extra to make 16; Notre Dame joins)
= + 9 extra teams; 1 slot short (*Baylor out)

It then immediately shifts to a P5:

NEW AAC TO JOIN P4->P5:

EAST:
UCF
Temple
Cincinnati
USF
E Carolina
UConn
Memphis
Tulane

WEST:
Houston
SMU
Navy
Tulsa
+Baylor
+BYU
+Boise State
+Fresno State or San Diego State
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 05:21 PM by toddjnsn.)
12-31-2018 05:20 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Fun with realignment
To truly create a "best of the rest" conference, you can't just expand on an existing conference. A 16 team conference will carry too much dead weight to ever be viewed as a power conference.

The only way to create a true "best of the rest" conference (9 or 12 programs), is for the top G5 programs to break away and start a new league. But, I'm sure the NCAA has several obstacles in place to prevent that from happening.
12-31-2018 05:31 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Fun with realignment
Lets not forget the pay for play lawsuit. The verdict is still out, but if it goes against the NCAA and the schools? We could lose schools from the P5. We could wind up 1A and 1AA for all sports.

P5 schools leaving P5 status.
Notre Dame
Duke
Wake Forest
Boston College
Northwestern
Baylor? They have a lot of legal issues right now.
TCU?
Syracuse?
Miami?
Stanford
USC?
Vanderbilt

G5 schools?
Tulsa
Tulane
SMU
Rice
Eastern Michigan
BYU

FCS and non-football private schools will follow Notre Dame's lead.

ACC adds:
UConn.
Cincinnati
UCF
West Virginia
Navy (football only) VCU

Big 10 adds:
Kansas

PAC 12 adds:
San Diego State
Boise State

SEC adds:
Oklahoma

Big 12 adds:
Houston
UTSA
Colorado State
New Mexico
Memphis
Air Force
North Dakota State

AAC gets decimated.
12-31-2018 07:44 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Fun with realignment
Fox (or the next rights holder after them) tries to buy the Big 10 the pieces it needs to be dominant again:

West - Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Iowa
North - Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern
Central - Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue
East - Penn State, Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland

The SEC can't just sit back and let the Big Ten encroach on its territory.

West - Texas A&M, LSU, Arkansas, Oklahoma State
South - Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi, Mississippi State
Central - Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
East - Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, West Virginia

The ACC at first tries to get Notre Dame to join in football thinking it may possibly have a deal to add just Kansas, but of course Notre Dame balks. The ACC then settles on TCU and Kansas.

West - TCU, Kansas, Louisville, Pittsburgh
South - Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson
East - North Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, NC State
North - Virginia, Virginia Tech, Syracuse, Boston College

The Pac 12 is left to clean up the Big 12, the latter of which is down to four teams. Baylor doesn't make the cut and is replaced by Houston:

East - Texas Tech, Houston, Kansas State, Iowa State
North - Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State
West - California, UCLA, Stanford, Southern California
South - Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Colorado

The ACC agrees not to support the champs-only model in exchange for further concessions from Notre Dame (chiefly, a sixth game every three years to accommodate TCU and Kansas). It proves unnecessary as the SEC continues to push an 8-team playoff in the hopes of securing 2-3 bids each season.

Baylor joins the American, replacing Houston.
12-31-2018 10:56 PM
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Big Frog II Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Fun with realignment
The Pac 12 is the one in trouble. Poor leadership and lagging TV ratings are to blame.
12-31-2018 11:03 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Fun with realignment
(12-31-2018 11:03 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The Pac 12 is the one in trouble. Poor leadership and lagging TV ratings are to blame.

I agree. The Big 12 is down, but the PAC is in trouble. Top to bottom, that conference is growing weaker by the day. The PAC has only sent 2 teams to the FBS Playoff since it started. That is the fewest among the P5 conferences. If I were the Big 12, I'd be looking to drop West Virginia and poach a few PAC programs to get the conference back to 12.
01-01-2019 10:24 PM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Fun with realignment
(01-01-2019 10:24 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 11:03 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The Pac 12 is the one in trouble. Poor leadership and lagging TV ratings are to blame.

I agree. The Big 12 is down, but the PAC is in trouble. Top to bottom, that conference is growing weaker by the day. The PAC has only sent 2 teams to the FBS Playoff since it started. That is the fewest among the P5 conferences. If I were the Big 12, I'd be looking to drop West Virginia and poach a few PAC programs to get the conference back to 12.

At this point the Pac-12 needs the Big XII more than the other way around.

I can see an schedule alliance in football and basketball and the Pac-12 network becomes a joint venture. The network gets Central time exposure and keeps Texas happy.
01-01-2019 10:54 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Fun with realignment
(01-01-2019 10:54 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(01-01-2019 10:24 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 11:03 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The Pac 12 is the one in trouble. Poor leadership and lagging TV ratings are to blame.

I agree. The Big 12 is down, but the PAC is in trouble. Top to bottom, that conference is growing weaker by the day. The PAC has only sent 2 teams to the FBS Playoff since it started. That is the fewest among the P5 conferences. If I were the Big 12, I'd be looking to drop West Virginia and poach a few PAC programs to get the conference back to 12.

At this point the Pac-12 needs the Big XII more than the other way around.

I can see an schedule alliance in football and basketball and the Pac-12 network becomes a joint venture. The network gets Central time exposure and keeps Texas happy.

I think the Big 12 should strike while the PAC is wounded. Drop West Virginia. They just don't fit. Houston poached their coach, so that reflects negatively on the Big 12. Let them be an independent. After removing WV, the Big 12 should bring back Colorado, and add Arizona and Arizona State. This new configuration of the Big 12 should get a better media deal then the current version, so every program in the conference would get a raise. Split it into divisions.

Texas
Oklahoma
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
Oklahoma State

Kansas State
Kansas
Iowa State
Colorado
Arizona
Arizona State
01-03-2019 11:59 AM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Fun with realignment
I'd like to see a return to Independent teams.

Texas - Indy w/ Oly in ACC
UConn - Indy w/ Big East Oly
Temple - Indy w/ Big East Oly
UMass - Indy w/ A10 Oly
Navy - Indy w/ Patriot Oly
Army - Indy w/ Patriot Oly
ECU - Indy w/ ASUN Oly
Marshall - Indy w/ Big South Oly
Southern Miss - Indy w/ Big South Oly
South Florida - Indy w/ ASUN Oly
Georgia Southern - Indy w/ Big South Oly



These teams would join together

SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU
La Tech
Texas State
01-03-2019 12:25 PM
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Big Frog II Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Fun with realignment
No to more independent teams.
01-03-2019 12:27 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Fun with realignment
(01-03-2019 11:59 AM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(01-01-2019 10:54 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(01-01-2019 10:24 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 11:03 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The Pac 12 is the one in trouble. Poor leadership and lagging TV ratings are to blame.

I agree. The Big 12 is down, but the PAC is in trouble. Top to bottom, that conference is growing weaker by the day. The PAC has only sent 2 teams to the FBS Playoff since it started. That is the fewest among the P5 conferences. If I were the Big 12, I'd be looking to drop West Virginia and poach a few PAC programs to get the conference back to 12.

At this point the Pac-12 needs the Big XII more than the other way around.

I can see an schedule alliance in football and basketball and the Pac-12 network becomes a joint venture. The network gets Central time exposure and keeps Texas happy.

I think the Big 12 should strike while the PAC is wounded. Drop West Virginia. They just don't fit. Houston poached their coach, so that reflects negatively on the Big 12. Let them be an independent. After removing WV, the Big 12 should bring back Colorado, and add Arizona and Arizona State. This new configuration of the Big 12 should get a better media deal then the current version, so every program in the conference would get a raise. Split it into divisions.

Texas
Oklahoma
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
Oklahoma State

Kansas State
Kansas
Iowa State
Colorado
Arizona
Arizona State

If only CU, UA, and ASU would actually want to leave the Pac.

(01-03-2019 12:25 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  I'd like to see a return to Independent teams.

Texas - Indy w/ Oly in ACC
UConn - Indy w/ Big East Oly
Temple - Indy w/ Big East Oly
UMass - Indy w/ A10 Oly
Navy - Indy w/ Patriot Oly
Army - Indy w/ Patriot Oly
ECU - Indy w/ ASUN Oly
Marshall - Indy w/ Big South Oly
Southern Miss - Indy w/ Big South Oly
South Florida - Indy w/ ASUN Oly
Georgia Southern - Indy w/ Big South Oly



These teams would join together

SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU
La Tech
Texas State

The Big East wouldn't take Temple basketball before, so why would they now? Villanova would have a fit.
01-03-2019 12:34 PM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Fun with realignment
When the original post had WVU going to the B10 I just assumed I could throw darts at a board.
01-03-2019 12:41 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Fun with realignment
(01-03-2019 12:25 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  These teams would join together

SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU
La Tech
Texas State

Absolutely not.

4 small private schools is far too many. And, this collection of schools also has more underfunded programs then our current division. There is no good alternative for North Texas at this moment. C-USA West will remain our home.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2019 02:35 PM by Side Show Joe.)
01-03-2019 02:32 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: Fun with realignment
(01-03-2019 12:41 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  When the original post had WVU going to the B10 I just assumed I could throw darts at a board.

Fair enough. 04-cheers
01-03-2019 03:00 PM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Fun with realignment
(01-03-2019 02:32 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 12:25 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  These teams would join together

SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU
La Tech
Texas State

Absolutely not.
C-USA West will remain our home.


That's the saddest realization I've ever read on this board. UNT could be so much better.
01-03-2019 03:10 PM
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