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(11-15-2019 10:11 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 09:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Give the punishment to see the light a shot....if it doesn’t work, if it means we win, Christ, go back to the Cumberland Left and Cumberland Right Offense for just 5 months. I don’t care if it’s pretty. See UC football.

Maybe I'm drunk. Maybe you're drunk. But what?

Lol I thought it was me. Rath- dumb it down for us!

(11-15-2019 11:05 PM)bearcatjim Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 10:11 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 09:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Give the punishment to see the light a shot....if it doesn’t work, if it means we win, Christ, go back to the Cumberland Left and Cumberland Right Offense for just 5 months. I don’t care if it’s pretty. See UC football.

Maybe I'm drunk. Maybe you're drunk. But what?

Lol I thought it was me. Rath- dumb it down for us!

Ok I get it after my 10th read. I hear ya bro. But I think that Cumberland do what you want offense nets us another narrow entry and first round exit in the NCAA. I’d rather miss the tourney and set the table the right way.

(11-15-2019 11:09 PM)bearcatjim Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 11:05 PM)bearcatjim Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 10:11 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 09:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Give the punishment to see the light a shot....if it doesn’t work, if it means we win, Christ, go back to the Cumberland Left and Cumberland Right Offense for just 5 months. I don’t care if it’s pretty. See UC football.

Maybe I'm drunk. Maybe you're drunk. But what?

Lol I thought it was me. Rath- dumb it down for us!

Ok I get it after my 10th read. I hear ya bro. But I think that Cumberland do what you want offense nets us another narrow entry and first round exit in the NCAA. I’d rather miss the tourney and set the table the right way.

I’d rather make the tournament and take my chances no matter what. An offense without Cumberland as a factor may net us a NIT road game in round 1. Thus the dilemma if he doesn’t get on board.

Any NBA chance will go out the window if he does not play. Oh well.

His NBA chances were slim regardless. He’s likely going to make a lot of money in Europe no matter what happens this year.

(11-16-2019 06:01 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 11:09 PM)bearcatjim Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 11:05 PM)bearcatjim Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 10:11 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(11-15-2019 09:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Give the punishment to see the light a shot....if it doesn’t work, if it means we win, Christ, go back to the Cumberland Left and Cumberland Right Offense for just 5 months. I don’t care if it’s pretty. See UC football.

Maybe I'm drunk. Maybe you're drunk. But what?

Lol I thought it was me. Rath- dumb it down for us!

Ok I get it after my 10th read. I hear ya bro. But I think that Cumberland do what you want offense nets us another narrow entry and first round exit in the NCAA. I’d rather miss the tourney and set the table the right way.

I’d rather make the tournament and take my chances no matter what. An offense without Cumberland as a factor may net us a NIT road game in round 1. Thus the dilemma if he doesn’t get on board.

The good news is those aren't the only options. Overreacting now doesn't make sense. It never makes sense to overreact early in the season but particularly with a new coach. And in this case jarron has missed a lot of time. They aren't going to run slow down iso ball with jarron as their offense. They also aren't going to use jarron as an equal part in the offense. Jarron will be a high usage player.

My point was if they don’t get him on board and bought in what they run may not make a huge difference.

(11-15-2019 07:13 PM)Dont tase me bro Wrote:  Can we tap the brakes on Chris Vogt for a minute? He's not going to be able to do that dribble 3 times to get to his spot thing he did in this game. He'll never get a shot off against anyone in the AAC doing that. Everyone is going to foul him if he is the focal point of the offense. He shoots free throws at a 35% clip over his career. I think he could turn into a good player, but he still needs to develop his game and fix his foul shot.

You're overestimating the quality and size of big men in both the AAC and college basketball today. At his size he can move the big guys in this league as well, but it's not really about moving them. It's about setting up and sealing and being able to hit shots. As i said, he's a lot stronger and bigger than i thought. Sure he'll miss ft's, welcome to the big man syndrome. However, if he gets guys to foul him with the lack of big man depth he'll make it up on easy buckets while they are either on the bench, or in foul trouble and they can't challenge him. The key is for him to not foul and stay on the court. The fouls he picked up at Osu had less to do with the guys guarding him, or he guarding them and more to do with bad decisions, iffy calls and probably first game overreach. That foul he got going for ball when their big kid was out of control and dribbling out of bounds was awful, and the phantom block helping out on the drive were iffy at best. Give it a couple months, but my guess is he lives and learns.

Vogt is better than I thought he would be. He’s not skinny he has put on some bulk. He’s slow, but he has decent touch. If he can be consistent with that baby hook over either shoulder he can be a force down low. Not the defensive presence that Brooks was, but seems to be more polished on the offensive end. Still remains to be seen what he does against the better teams we will face, will he fade or will he be consistent? If we can get 20/10 out of our center position between him and Sorolla like we have been getting so far... I am more than happy with that.

(11-16-2019 11:20 AM)dsquare Wrote:  You're overestimating the quality and size of big men in both the AAC and college basketball today. At his size he can move the big guys in this league as well, but it's not really about moving them. It's about setting up and sealing and being able to hit shots. As i said, he's a lot stronger and bigger than i thought. Sure he'll miss ft's, welcome to the big man syndrome. However, if he gets guys to foul him with the lack of big man depth he'll make it up on easy buckets while they are either on the bench, or in foul trouble and they can't challenge him. The key is for him to not foul and stay on the court. The fouls he picked up at Osu had less to do with the guys guarding him, or he guarding them and more to do with bad decisions, iffy calls and probably first game overreach. That foul he got going for ball when their big kid was out of control and dribbling out of bounds was awful, and the phantom block helping out on the drive were iffy at best. Give it a couple months, but my guess is he lives and learns.

It's not so much the other bigs I'm concerned about, but the speed of the game and the other guys on the floor. Good teams are not going to allow him to put the ball on the floor in the paint.

I'm not sure what you mean by big man syndrome. Nearly everyone who plays manages to shoot free throws at a higher percentage than 35. It's a problem that he should be working on.

I hope I'm wrong and he is dunking on guys heads all year, but I don't see it.

(11-16-2019 01:31 PM)Dont tase me bro Wrote:  

(11-16-2019 11:20 AM)dsquare Wrote:  You're overestimating the quality and size of big men in both the AAC and college basketball today. At his size he can move the big guys in this league as well, but it's not really about moving them. It's about setting up and sealing and being able to hit shots. As i said, he's a lot stronger and bigger than i thought. Sure he'll miss ft's, welcome to the big man syndrome. However, if he gets guys to foul him with the lack of big man depth he'll make it up on easy buckets while they are either on the bench, or in foul trouble and they can't challenge him. The key is for him to not foul and stay on the court. The fouls he picked up at Osu had less to do with the guys guarding him, or he guarding them and more to do with bad decisions, iffy calls and probably first game overreach. That foul he got going for ball when their big kid was out of control and dribbling out of bounds was awful, and the phantom block helping out on the drive were iffy at best. Give it a couple months, but my guess is he lives and learns.

It's not so much the other bigs I'm concerned about, but the speed of the game and the other guys on the floor. Good teams are not going to allow him to put the ball on the floor in the paint.

I'm not sure what you mean by big man syndrome. Nearly everyone who plays manages to shoot free throws at a higher percentage than 35. It's a problem that he should be working on.

I hope I'm wrong and he is dunking on guys heads all year, but I don't see it.

I don't see it either, but I didn't think he'd be as good as he's been so far, so maybe I'll be wrong again. Defense and fouls are my biggest concerns. I think offensive production will go down and TO's will go up as well once competition gets tougher. The last two seasons he has averaged over 7.5 fouls/40 minutes. I think he will eventually figure it out, but not in a couple months. With luck by the end of the season, but more likely next season.

Still, he is playing well against bad competition. That's more than can be said for Sorolla.

(11-16-2019 11:47 AM)Bearcatbdub Wrote:  Vogt is better than I thought he would be. He’s not skinny he has put on some bulk. He’s slow, but he has decent touch. If he can be consistent with that baby hook over either shoulder he can be a force down low. Not the defensive presence that Brooks was, but seems to be more polished on the offensive end. Still remains to be seen what he does against the better teams we will face, will he fade or will he be consistent? If we can get 20/10 out of our center position between him and Sorolla like we have been getting so far... I am more than happy with that.

I get people wondering if the bigs will keep up against good competition but it's not like Brooks got better as the competition did. He was generally pretty bad against the Power 5 teams we play and good AAC teams.

OSU - 7 points
George Mason - 3 points
Ole Miss - 4 points
UNLV - 9
Xavier - 4
Miss. State - 7
Memphis - 0....I repeat....0
Houston - 7
Wichita- 3
UCF - 2
Houston - 2

Again, I'm not saying Vogt is better but I think people are really misremembering what Brooks did (or didn't do) now that he's gone. Also he had 4-5 in almost all of those games which is another concern people have for Vogt. I don't think we'll be getting much less from Vogt like people are thinking. If so we're screwed.
In full disclosure he did have a couple good games against moderate/good competition but I didn't include them because it's the exception.

Brooks was often a nonfactor against good teams. He couldn't stay on the floor.

(11-16-2019 02:27 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Brooks was often a nonfactor against good teams. He couldn't stay on the floor.

Exactly right. Look back at his box scores, and it was a common theme. He did improve offensively last year as he was dreadful his first two years finishing for a 6'11 guy. That said, he does not posses near the touch or array of shots for that matter that Vogt has shown and also what i saw from him in working out, and i credit that to Brannen which is encouraging. He's also not shy about playing offense which was a characteristic of Brooks time here for better or worse. He wasn't that skilled when he got to Nku. Key is he needs to stay on the court for 20 to 25 minutes. I have no doubt he will draw a lot of fouls which generally leads to good things in the course of 40 minutes particularly from a rebounding advantage.

(11-16-2019 02:27 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Brooks was often a nonfactor against good teams. He couldn't stay on the floor.

Exactly. I'm not sure why Skyblade continues to harp on his point about Vogt fouling when Brooks was terrible at it against any quality opponent.

(11-16-2019 02:27 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Brooks was often a nonfactor against good teams. He couldn't stay on the floor.

Brooks offensive rating last year was 121.6, Vogt so far this year is 116.9. Brooks wasn't as big of a scoring threat, but Cronin's offense didn't run through the center nearly as much as Brannen's did. Even so, he was in double digits scoring in 4 of our last 7 games. The biggest difference he made was rebounding (especially offensive rebounding) and defense - he also got quite good in the screen-and-roll with Jarron at the season progressed. Looking just at scoring will make Vogt look good, but scoring is Vogt's strongest suit and was Brooks weakest. Brooks was our second best player on the team last year (when in the game), Vogt is maybe our 5th best player.

As for fouls, yes Brooks had foul trouble. But Vogt has averaged about 2 more fouls per 40 minutes each of the last two years than Brooks did last year. Vogt is almost certainly going to commit more fouls per 40 minutes this year than Brooks did last year (probably by a fairly significant margin).

(11-16-2019 08:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  The good news is those aren't the only options. Overreacting now doesn't make sense. It never makes sense to overreact early in the season but particularly with a new coach. And in this case jarron has missed a lot of time. They aren't going to run slow down iso ball with jarron as their offense. They also aren't going to use jarron as an equal part in the offense. Jarron will be a high usage player.

You've framed it oddly (by definition, overreacting doesn't make), but I agree that obsessing over the team's play 3 games in is foolish. I think that's a different category of concern than this, though. The team's play will likely improve as the players get more comfortable in the system, bu who knows whether Jarron and Coach Brannen's relationship will get better or worse.

(11-16-2019 03:09 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(11-16-2019 02:27 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Brooks was often a nonfactor against good teams. He couldn't stay on the floor.

Brooks offensive rating last year was 121.6, Vogt so far this year is 116.9. Brooks wasn't as big of a scoring threat, but Cronin's offense didn't run through the center nearly as much as Brannen's did. Even so, he was in double digits scoring in 4 of our last 7 games. The biggest difference he made was rebounding (especially offensive rebounding) and defense - he also got quite good in the screen-and-roll with Jarron at the season progressed. Looking just at scoring will make Vogt look good, but scoring is Vogt's strongest suit and was Brooks weakest. Brooks was our second best player on the team last year (when in the game), Vogt is maybe our 5th best player.

As for fouls, yes Brooks had foul trouble. But Vogt has averaged about 2 more fouls per 40 minutes each of the last two years than Brooks did last year. Vogt is almost certainly going to commit more fouls per 40 minutes this year than Brooks did last year (probably by a fairly significant margin).

Where are you finding your offensive ratings? Kenpom has Brooks at 116 which is solid but makes sense because Brooks wasn't asked to do much. He was largely efficient because he was the fifth option scoring on putbacks. Of the major contributors he shot on the fewest percent of possessions. By comparison Vogt has a 114 offensive rating right now but is second to only jarron Cumberland in shot rate. He's creating offense.

I liked Brooks but he didn't stay on the floor against good teams and was limited on offense (though played within himself and was efficient as a result). I guess we'll see about foul rate but I have been more impressed with sorrolla than you and don't think the dropoff from Vogt to sorrolla is nearly as dramatic as Brooks to nsoseme.