(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Agreed, as a Texas fan who is content with the Big 12 as of now.. I would also have zero interest in Louisville in the Big 12.

(03-28-2020 07:47 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 07:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 06:39 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 05:21 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.

1) ND would likely want partial membership in this conference as well, with football being independent.

2) For what it is worth, Father John Jenkins (ND's president) has said on multiple occasions that ND will not participate as well.

3) An emphatic yes to that entire paragraph.

There was never going to be a 4 team playoff either. We were told that repeatedly.
Money talks. If Notre Dame gets enough of what they want, they will do it.
If they get lots of money, better playoff access, attractive conference opponents AND scheduling flexibility, they most certainly will listen carefully.

They could have had most or all of that in 2010. The Big Ten was after them, hard.

The result? A big no.

This scheme? ND might listen, but I think would decline.

That is just an attempt at "conference member creep" in trying to push ND to full membership.

("Its only two more games" would be the cry if ND ever agreed to this)

Even ND administrators were forced to watch the baby shark song for an entire month straight on endless loop, they still wouldn't join a conference for football IMO.

(03-29-2020 06:22 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 07:47 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 07:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 06:39 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 05:21 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.

1) ND would likely want partial membership in this conference as well, with football being independent.

2) For what it is worth, Father John Jenkins (ND's president) has said on multiple occasions that ND will not participate as well.

3) An emphatic yes to that entire paragraph.

There was never going to be a 4 team playoff either. We were told that repeatedly.
Money talks. If Notre Dame gets enough of what they want, they will do it.
If they get lots of money, better playoff access, attractive conference opponents AND scheduling flexibility, they most certainly will listen carefully.

They could have had most or all of that in 2010. The Big Ten was after them, hard.

The result? A big no.

This scheme? ND might listen, but I think would decline.

That is just an attempt at "conference member creep" in trying to push ND to full membership.

("Its only two more games" would be the cry if ND ever agreed to this)

Even ND administrators were forced to watch the baby shark song for an entire month straight on endless loop, they still wouldn't join a conference for football IMO.

Ouch. One of my granddaughters loves Baby Shark Song. That would be painful.

(03-28-2020 03:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...

Always puzzling to me that people so often suggest that Navy should be in a P5 conference. They should get a pay raise from their current $2 million, or so, to the B1G $55 million so that ND won't have to play them out of conference. Am I reading this right Bearcat?

The ND-Navy series should be discontinued anyway. Navy has won once in the last 50 years, or so. It is really just an annual fundraiser held by ND to benefit the Naval Academy in return for their support during the last world war. ND should just schedule another California school in place of Navy and just send The Academy a check.

Navy beat Notre Dame 3 times in 4 years recently. ND donors I’ve spoke with love that series, and like that Navy’s gotten good over the last 20 years. Navy’s finished top-20 twice in the last 5 years.

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

(03-28-2020 06:32 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-28-2020 03:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...

That is not nearly enough for ND to shelve its brand, its current status/setup and its 133 year tradition of being a football independent.

It is not just the national schedule part (although that is part of it).

ND just doesn't want to put its football program in a conference, even if it made more money and could play a national schedule by doing so.

It is the very idea of putting football in a conference that it rejects and has always rejected since the 1920's.

People seem to have an inability to understand this.

ND could have joined any conference it wanted since then.

It could have joined the Big East in full from 1995-2012 or the ACC in full at any time since 2012.

It could have joined the Big Ten (Everyone wants to join the Big Ten, right?) at any time since the 1970's.

It has refused to do so....every single time.

It will take desperation or lack of all other options on ND's part to change that.

Terry, you just keep fightin' the good fight. You should save those bullet points to your desktop and just paste them in to future threads on this subject, over and over again 'til people stop messin' with Notre Dame.
I'm sympathetic to your cause... but we gotta talk.

1. That is not nearly enough for ND to shelve its brand...


What is it that constitutes the ND Brand? Does altering it amount to "shelving it?" Was the Brand shelved in the 1940s with admission of Black students; in the 1970s with the admission of women? Are those changes more, or less monumental than changing the associations of the athletic department?

2. It is not just the national schedule...

To most of us, that seems to be the primary benefit of independence... what else is it?


3. even if it made more money and...

The money in a few years may be outrageous. What if ABC doesn't keep up. If a huge revenue jump is available, would the administration be irresponsible to reject it?

4. It is the very idea of putting football in a conference...

"Why, the very idea!," said the snooty matron in the Victorian drama on PBS. Terry, would you really stop supporting your school/team if they chose to join a conference. What would change between you and Notre Dame if they made that move?

5. People seem to have an inability to understand this.

I think that I understand it. And so do many others. Where others part company with you is that it is so much more important to you and a helluva lot of ND fans than many think is rational. But it's not personal to us, as it clearly is to you. Even if it is just plain stubbornness, it's entirely appropriate because it's sports. That's the place in our society where grudges, vengeance, irrational loyalty to athletes who we never heard of 'til last week are deemed to be fully acceptable.

Keep up your struggle. But remember that time goes by; things change; always. When that first coed walked into her first class in 1972, somewhere in the back of the room was heard, "The very idea."

Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

(03-29-2020 10:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

Actually Louisville fans can drive to every road game, except Miami or BC, in less than 12 hours.

https://cardinalsportszone.com/2012/11/2...c-schools/

(03-30-2020 04:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 10:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

Actually Louisville fans can drive to every road game, except Miami or BC, in less than 12 hours.

https://cardinalsportszone.com/2012/11/2...c-schools/

and who doesn't love 10 plus hours on the rd..one way?

(03-30-2020 04:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 10:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

Actually Louisville fans can drive to every road game, except Miami or BC, in less than 12 hours.

https://cardinalsportszone.com/2012/11/2...c-schools/

With that standard, the same is true of the Big 12 except for Texas and Texas Tech. Baylor may be just over 12 hours.

(03-30-2020 04:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

You know you love us. At least partially.

(03-30-2020 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 04:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 10:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

Actually Louisville fans can drive to every road game, except Miami or BC, in less than 12 hours.

https://cardinalsportszone.com/2012/11/2...c-schools/

With that standard, the same is true of the Big 12 except for Texas and Texas Tech. Baylor may be just over 12 hours.

Geographically the Big Ten (Indiana, Ohio State, Purdue) and SEC (Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt) would be better for Louisville. Too bad neither conference is interested. Of course so would the MAC but Louisville wouldn't go for that either.

(03-30-2020 04:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

If ND values independence so much, you'd think they'd want to be independent in all sports. If I were the ACC, I'd cut them adrift. I've never been a big fan of tails wagging dogs.

(03-30-2020 09:41 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 04:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 10:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-29-2020 05:51 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.

Louisville pretty much has to travel to road games in an airplane in the ACC.

But the theory in this scenario is that the ACC and ESPN doesn't give UL a choice, but do give them a soft landing while offering the Big 12 an incentive to expand to 12, which they were interested in a couple years ago if the TV partners would participate.

Actually Louisville fans can drive to every road game, except Miami or BC, in less than 12 hours.

https://cardinalsportszone.com/2012/11/2...c-schools/

With that standard, the same is true of the Big 12 except for Texas and Texas Tech. Baylor may be just over 12 hours.

Geographically the Big Ten (Indiana, Ohio State, Purdue) and SEC (Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt) would be better for Louisville. Too bad neither conference is interested. Of course so would the MAC but Louisville wouldn't go for that either.

Louisville has always had to fend for itself the best way it could. In athletics and in State funding. The traditional "ding" on Louisville is that its academics are not up to snuff, from either the ACC or the Big Ten perspective.

Beginning in 1970, Louisville was required by the State to change who it accepted as students. Only then did its academics begin a decline.

Louisville has done very well in athletics for a considerable time. Its academics rankings have been improving, comparatively, over the last 15 years. It is a very long road, and Louisville is quite used to having little assistance in achieving academics and athletics success from any source, including its own state.

Louisville appreciates having been allowed to be a part of the ACC for the last 6 years.

If Louisville were forced to become a vagabond again, it would land on its feet.

(03-30-2020 10:01 AM)colohank Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 04:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

If ND values independence so much, you'd think they'd want to be independent in all sports. If I were the ACC, I'd cut them adrift. I've never been a big fan of tails wagging dogs.

The same contract that binds them to us also binds us to them. Of course the real beneficiary is ESPN.

(03-30-2020 10:01 AM)colohank Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 04:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

If ND values independence so much, you'd think they'd want to be independent in all sports. If I were the ACC, I'd cut them adrift. I've never been a big fan of tails wagging dogs.

Setting aside the actual reasons this couldn't happen, the ACC values the football scheduling arrangement and Notre Dame's basketball too much to do this. Notre Dame's absolute worst-case scenario is a return to the Big East, so there isn't really any leverage the conference would have in an "all-in or all-out" ultimatum, and they aren't going to boot a brand that they actually want just for the fun of it.

(03-30-2020 11:23 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 10:01 AM)colohank Wrote:  

(03-30-2020 04:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  Unfortunately, we are stuck with the Irish at least until 2036-37.

If ND values independence so much, you'd think they'd want to be independent in all sports. If I were the ACC, I'd cut them adrift. I've never been a big fan of tails wagging dogs.

Setting aside the actual reasons this couldn't happen, the ACC values the football scheduling arrangement and Notre Dame's basketball too much to do this. Notre Dame's absolute worst-case scenario is a return to the Big East, so there isn't really any leverage the conference would have in an "all-in or all-out" ultimatum, and they aren't going to boot a brand that they actually want just for the fun of it.

Yes, to this. Notre Dame is a brand you want on your schedule. Even if they are terrible, the Irish draw fans to games and interest from laypeople. If the ACC gives Notre Dame an ultimatum at the end of the contract to join for football or leave (which I seriously doubt will happen), Notre Dame will have good opportunities to go elsewhere and maintain football independence if they choose.

I have read the Big 12 offered Notre Dame the ACC deal but with a 6 game requirement.

Now SEC and Big 10 are not going to give Notre Dame a special deal. Pac 12 makes no sense. Notre Dame wouldn't go for a G5. And I don't think any non football conference would go for them. They wouldn't want their non-rev sports to be overwhelmed by Notre Dame's football money. Otherwise Notre Dame might still be in the Big East.

So for Notre Dame, its ACC (a better institutional fit) or Big 12.

(03-30-2020 09:21 PM)bullet Wrote:  I have read the Big 12 offered Notre Dame the ACC deal but with a 6 game requirement.

Now SEC and Big 10 are not going to give Notre Dame a special deal. Pac 12 makes no sense. Notre Dame wouldn't go for a G5. And I don't think any non football conference would go for them. They wouldn't want their non-rev sports to be overwhelmed by Notre Dame's football money. Otherwise Notre Dame might still be in the Big East.

So for Notre Dame, its ACC (a better institutional fit) or Big 12.

I can agree with that. We didn't stay with the big east partially for that reason. Other Big reasons were bowls and late season games. The big east doesn't help with either.