Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

I presume Conference USA would be called Conference CSA, for starters.

Some schools would be named entirely different. A school like Clemson (founded 1889), for example, is probably named after John Wilkes Booth, who'd be a confederate legend.

So we'd be talking about the John Wilkes Booth Tigers winning CSA national championship.

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

Well, I dont think the structure of the CSA would look anything like the modern south. Iirc the CSA wanted strong state governments and had a pretty weak economy. As a result I think the individual states themselves would be more economically independent and as a result there would be a pretty big divide. Bigger than what we really have. Texas would probably be the wealthiest in a poor CSA. There would be less universities as a whole and they would probably be underfunded. Economics aside football might not even be a big thing in this CSA since it would probably be considered a "yankee sport" and possibly met with disdain by many. Similarly to soccer in real life.

(04-20-2020 10:21 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

I presume Conference USA would be called Conference CSA, for starters.

What would it look like if we'd lost WWII? What would conference alignment look like if the American Revolution had failed and we were under the rule of Elizabeth II? What would it look like if the Normans hadn't conquered England? What would it look like if the Caliphate had conquered and converted all of Europe? What if the Roman Empire had prevailed and repelled the barbarians? What if Hannibal had won?
What if those Roman lions had eaten all of the Christians? (I guess there'd be no Liberty University, eh?)

(04-20-2020 10:29 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Some schools would be named entirely different. A school like Clemson (founded 1889), for example, is probably named after John Wilkes Booth, who'd be a confederate legend.

So we'd be talking about the John Wilkes Booth Tigers winning CSA national championship.

There might me some things that are different:

For one, I think VMI becomes CMI, Confederate Military Institute, the CSA West Point, while the Citadel becomes the Confederate Naval Academy.

In all honesty, there’s probably no Lincoln assassination (why kill him if you won the war?). Mr. Booth probably moves from Maryland to Virginia and just gets remembered as the guy who played a really good Hamlet.

(04-20-2020 10:32 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

Well, I dont think the structure of the CSA would look anything like the modern south. Iirc the CSA wanted strong state governments and had a pretty weak economy. As a result I think the individual states themselves would be more economically independent and as a result there would be a pretty big divide. Bigger than what we really have. Texas would probably be the wealthiest in a poor CSA. There would be less universities as a whole and they would probably be underfunded. Economics aside football might not even be a big thing in this CSA since it would probably be considered a "yankee sport" and possibly met with disdain by many. Similarly to soccer in real life.

Maybe we need to also assume that schools founded after the war still get founded and that both the CSA and USA both develop a sport akin to football. Maybe CSA football looks a little different that USA football in the same way that Canadian football looks a little different (or even drastically different like Australian rules Football).

I am guessing the state of West Virginia would have been reabsorbed back into Virginia. It is questionable whether WVU would have existed in its current state, as the school was instituted in 1867 (after the war) under the Morrill-Land Grant Colleges Act.

I am guessing the University of Nebraska would be located in the city of Davis, Nebraska (instead of Lincoln).

Following the Spanish-American War the South would have grabbed Cuba as a colony. Eventually Cuba along with Puerto Rico would have been granted statehood.

For me, the North is easy:

The Big Ten’s history stays virtually unchanged through the 1980’s

The Big 8 runs into trouble. Nebraska, Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, and Missouri are stuck with the decision of staying in the MVC with Drake and Wash U or trying something different. I say they form the Big 8 with UK, L’ville, and Cincy, later becoming the Big 9 with Colorado.

The PAC 10 has a very similar history as now. They still boot out Montana and Idaho but they only have 8 members because they never add the AZ schools for the 2nd half of the 20th Century. In the 2010s they add Utah and BYU for 10.

Maryland helps Penn St get their Eastern Conference of:

Penn St, Pitt, Temple, WVU, Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse, and BC

Major Independents include ND, Army, and Navy

The MAC still forms but with the additions of WKU and Marshall.

There’s also the WAC: Wyoming, Colo St, AFA, Utah St, Boise St, Nevada, SDSU, SJSU, Fresno St, Hawaii (Las Vegas falls within the borders of CSA’s AZ so there is no UNLV, there’s a UALV)

In the Mid 2010s the NCAA (USA) adopts an 8 team playoff for the top level of football. Champs of the 6 conferences plus 2 at larges compete for the title.

(04-20-2020 11:06 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am guessing the state of West Virginia would have been reabsorbed back into Virginia. It is questionable whether WVU would have existed in its current state, as the school was instituted in 1867 (after the war) under the Morrill-Land Grant Colleges Act.

I am guessing the University of Nebraska would be located in the city of Davis, Nebraska (instead of Lincoln).

Following the Spanish-American War the South would have grabbed Cuba as a colony. Eventually Cuba along with Puerto Rico would have been granted statehood.

Nebraska falls squarely in Union territory so I think it’s safe to assume the Huskers represent UN-L.

The WV issue would probably depend on the terms of the treaty. My guess is that VA and the CSA wouldn’t want them back because the citizens of those counties turned their backs on their fellow Virginians.

More realistically, what will things look like when we become a monarchy?

Who friggin knows?

The US would be two Nations more or less at each others throats. The South would not have seen anywhere near the immigration from the old world as a slave owning country. There likely would have been a net migration of Whites out of the South, making it ripe eventually for a South Africa type situation, majority Black rising up to take over. The South's borders would look different, as Kentucky would be in the North. Industrialization might have only barely been much in the South.

If the White government held on, the SEC would never be anything since it would not have black athletes. Basketball and Football may not even have made it's way into the South. Cross border play would be unlikely.

Then you have to ask what would have been the impact of no Mexican American War? How would WWI have resolved? Would the North have joined, would the South have sided with the Kaiser? Obviously Europe would be different after that War.

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

Civil War? Do you mean the War of Northern Aggression or perhaps you might have heard it referred to as; The War for Southern Economic Independence or The War between the States....but that conflict should never be referred to as the Civil War, which is an annual football contest between Oregon and Oregon State.

My questions would be: 1) Do Alaska and Hawaii become states given the bifurcation? (It doesn't really effect realignment but still a question); 2) Do we really know how the West would be split between the USA and CSA or perhaps it'd be something like a third nation - PSA (Pacific States of America)? We can't assume today's political similarities between the Northeast and Pacific states would be the same given this hypothetical; 3) We must also assume states formed after the Civil War ended (1865) might not look like they do today. So how would those 14 states be formed?

Ultimately, I think the USA and CSA merge and become the USA we know today. I think we end up somewhere realignment was 30-50 years ago with more regionalized conferences but rapidly moving towards an alignment resembling where we are today due to the fast-paced changes in media, society, etc.

Didn't the south attack first? That's kind of aggessive

(04-20-2020 10:48 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-20-2020 10:32 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

Well, I dont think the structure of the CSA would look anything like the modern south. Iirc the CSA wanted strong state governments and had a pretty weak economy. As a result I think the individual states themselves would be more economically independent and as a result there would be a pretty big divide. Bigger than what we really have. Texas would probably be the wealthiest in a poor CSA. There would be less universities as a whole and they would probably be underfunded. Economics aside football might not even be a big thing in this CSA since it would probably be considered a "yankee sport" and possibly met with disdain by many. Similarly to soccer in real life.

Maybe we need to also assume that schools founded after the war still get founded and that both the CSA and USA both develop a sport akin to football. Maybe CSA football looks a little different that USA football in the same way that Canadian football looks a little different (or even drastically different like Australian rules Football).

CSA schools might not have big-time sports at all. Two reasons:

First, The Morrill Act that funded land grant schools was passed by the North in 1862. The Morril Act was actually first passed by Congress in 1859 but was vetoed by President Buchanan. It was opposed by Southern Democrats (like Buchanan), who believed that education was a state responsibility.

This impacts more than just land grant schools; I'd bet that education funding as a whole is reduced and all public Southern schools lose their influence in society.


Second, a professional CSA football league would take most of the fans. In real life, the SEC got popular because there were no pro teams in any sport in SEC territory until 1966 - the early pro teams were all in the much bigger Northern cities.

But if CSA has its own pro teams then maybe the Birmingham Barons or Mobile Marauders become much more popular than the Alabama Crimson Tide or Auburn Tigers.

(04-20-2020 01:31 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  My questions would be: 1) Do Alaska and Hawaii become states given the bifurcation? (It doesn't really effect realignment but still a question); 2) Do we really know how the West would be split between the USA and CSA or perhaps it'd be something like a third nation - PSA (Pacific States of America)? We can't assume today's political similarities between the Northeast and Pacific states would be the same given this hypothetical; 3) We must also assume states formed after the Civil War ended (1865) might not look like they do today. So how would those 14 states be formed?

Ultimately, I think the USA and CSA merge and become the USA we know today. I think we end up somewhere realignment was 30-50 years ago with more regionalized conferences but rapidly moving towards an alignment resembling where we are today due to the fast-paced changes in media, society, etc.

1. I’m going to say yes, both Union states

2. The CSA claimed Indian Terr (Okla), NM Terr, and AZ Terr (albeit then the border included the Southern part of modern Nevada where LV is; loyal Union NV asked for their border to be expanded to the Colorado River after the war) Had the South had the resources, they might have tried to annex more Mexican or Caribbean territory but I doubt they’d be war ready for some time after the 1860s. All the rest of the West was pretty well claimed for the Union.

3. Aside from the NV/AZ difference let’s assume most everything else stays the same.

(04-20-2020 10:08 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Since we are all bored out of our minds, what would conference alignment looked like had the South won the Civil War and there was an NCAA (USA) and an NCAA (CSA).

I’m still tweaking with my own ideas but will post eventually. Here are your guidelines:

No international membership (CSA and USA only conferences)

Border States Delaware, Maryland, WVU, Kentucky, and Missouri should be considered USA

Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are CSA.

Give a history of each of your conferences. Who founded them, who came and left, what is their current membership today?

I’ll dole out some rep points for good ideas.

It's debatable that the border states would have remained in the Union if the South wins. Probably depends on the victory conditions.

If the South crushes the North by destroying the Army of the Potomac (had a few more things gone right for the South in the Seven Days on the Peninsula, not impossible) and capturing Washington, they'd have been in a strong position to recognize the secessionist governments and take those states with them.

If the victory is simply that Lincoln is defeated in 1864, and McClellan negotiates a peace treaty, then the border states stay, as the CSA is in no position to dictate seizing additional territory. Under those conditions, even Oklahoma, Arizona, and New Mexico might remain Union. You also have the Union in control of several very pro-Unionist areas within states that seceded, chiefly east Tennessee and to a lesser degree northwest Arkansas. Could see some border realignment there.

(04-20-2020 10:29 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Some schools would be named entirely different. A school like Clemson (founded 1889), for example, is probably named after John Wilkes Booth, who'd be a confederate legend.

So we'd be talking about the John Wilkes Booth Tigers winning CSA national championship.

Booth would only be a legend in a scenario where the Confederacy lost. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been motivated to kill Lincoln. This version of history plays out with Booth never becoming anything more than a stage actor and his memory fades. No one would have ever heard of him outside of theater goers of the period.

I think we can also assume that had the Confederacy won, it would have been with the aid of Great Britain.

Now, we have to map out a political landscape where not only are the North and South divided, but also one in which the Confederacy has strong ties to the UK. Given the cultural ties between the two entities that stretch back even further into the Colonial era, I'm going to make the prediction that football as we know it doesn't really take off in the South.

Economically and socially, there ends up being a greater affinity for rugby and soccer.

(04-20-2020 02:30 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(04-20-2020 10:29 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Some schools would be named entirely different. A school like Clemson (founded 1889), for example, is probably named after John Wilkes Booth, who'd be a confederate legend.

So we'd be talking about the John Wilkes Booth Tigers winning CSA national championship.

Booth would only be a legend in a scenario where the Confederacy lost. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been motivated to kill Lincoln. This version of history plays out with Booth never becoming anything more than a stage actor and his memory fades. No one would have ever heard of him outside of theater goers of the period.

I think we can also assume that had the Confederacy won, it would have been with the aid of Great Britain.

Now, we have to map out a political landscape where not only are the North and South divided, but also one in which the Confederacy has strong ties to the UK. Given the cultural ties between the two entities that stretch back even further into the Colonial era, I'm going to make the prediction that football as we know it doesn't really take off in the South.

Economically and socially, there ends up being a greater affinity for rugby and soccer.

Indeed...actually, it's almost kind of surprising we don't have a Robert E. Lee University or Thomas J. Jackson University anyway given the plethora of high schools.

I think we can definitely expect there to be Lee, Jackson, Davis, and such universities in this alternate universe. But it's impossible to predict; the economies and populations of the states would be very different. Without building an entire timeline of political changes, we also can't know if there would be as much of a comprehensive public university system, whether the private schools might be more dominant and perhaps have some state support in lieu of more public universities, etc. etc. etc.