(04-26-2020 10:44 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would it make sense for those schools in Patriot, CAA and NEC to band together in a bball only conference?

At least for the CAA those schools have no interest in that, the CAA is generally ranked ahead of the NEC and Patriot in terms of RPI, and the College of Charleston and UNC Wilmington don't really care about any of the schools in the NEC

(04-27-2020 12:41 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 09:25 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 09:00 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 07:19 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 06:30 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Where did this misinformation come from? Football is a conference sponsored sport. This is not the same arrangement as the MVFC and MVC.

Pretty sure CAA Football is a stand-alone single-sport conference.

Yes and no. CAA Football is technically a separate conference, but it's run by and managed entirely by the CAA, Joe D'Antonio is the commissioner of both. I would guess it's some sort of paperwork/legal thing, but they're technically separate conferences, though for any practical sense it's one conference.

It doesn't really matter whether they share a commissioner, being a full member with all voting and rights privileges is a much more stable position to be in than an affiliate of a conference you aren't a full member of (and thus droppable). Whose name is at the top of the letterhead is window dressing.

I'm actually not sure how exactly it works for the CAA, but I think it's basically one conference, and I'm not sure the football only members actually have much influence. Like, the conference used the money from our "TV" deal on Flo sports for football and paid CBS to televise some CAA basketball games. I can't imagine the football only schools would have been too supportive of that.

When ODU left the CAA and was banned from its postseason events for their final year, it was reported that CAA Football had the option to allow ODU to compete for their NCAA bid. They voted against, probably informed in large part by the CAA's established rule, but they were under no legal obligation to follow it.

CAA Football is the spiritual, but not legal, successor to the Yankee Conference, which moved to Atlantic 10 administration in the 1990s. The CAA created its football conference for the southern A10/Yankee members, but when enough A10 members left for the CAA that they couldn't maintain the minimum needed for a bid, the rest followed suit and the A10 football conference died. The CAA did inherit the A10's NCAA bid.

CAA Football is a distinct entity. The football members who are not in the all sports CAA are full members of CAA Football with a full vote. There are no affiliate members of CAA Football. Yes, there are a number of shared resources with the all sports CAA but Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Albany, Stony Brook, Richmond, and Villanova have the same membership rights and vote as Delaware, Towson, JMU, Elon, and William and Mary. They have the ability to band together and outvote the core CAA schools.

I think the only distinction is that an all sports school admitted to the CAA gains automatic football admission.

Is CAA football obliged to offer membership to any full member of CAA?

(04-27-2020 07:28 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  CAA Football is a distinct entity. The football members who are not in the all sports CAA are full members of CAA Football with a full vote. There are no affiliate members of CAA Football. Yes, there are a number of shared resources with the all sports CAA but Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Albany, Stony Brook, Richmond, and Villanova have the same membership rights and vote as Delaware, Towson, JMU, Elon, and William and Mary. They have the ability to band together and outvote the core CAA schools.

I think the only distinction is that an all sports school admitted to the CAA gains automatic football admission.

(04-27-2020 08:02 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is CAA football obliged to offer membership to any full member of CAA?

CAA Football: Albany, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Towson, Villanova, William & Mary

Let's say the CAA said you had to be a football member to be in and you had to be all in or out. Villanova would be out for sure, they're not giving up the Big East. Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, and Stony Brook should easily give up the America East for the Colonial as in men's basketball it's a step up although geographically it's more of a challenge. But the CAA would be trading away Charleston, Drexel, Hofstra, Northeastern, and UNC Wilmington for Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, and Stony Brook. Stony Brook for Hofstra keeps the New York market. New Hampshire and Maine allows them to stay in New England but they won't be in Boston. They'd lose Philly in Drexel but is Delaware enough? They'd lose Charleston and South Carolina but that would save them travel on the south end, especially since teams will have to travel further north to go to New Hampshire/Maine. Elon is further north than Wilmington, NC so getting rid of UNCW will save them some southern miles. For the CAA football all in plan to work, Richmond and Rhode Island would have to give up the A-10. Is it worth the CAA to trade the non football schools for the football schools? Should Richmond and Rhode Island go from the A-10 to the CAA? If not, would a 9 team all in CAA work with just Albany, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Maine, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Towson, William & Mary?

(04-27-2020 08:02 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is CAA football obliged to offer membership to any full member of CAA?

I believe members of the CAA get automatic membership to CAA football (Like Elon), but members of CAA Football do not get automatic membership to the full CAA (Stony Brook allegedly has wanted to be a full member of the CAA, but have been blocked by Hofstra).

(04-27-2020 09:23 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-27-2020 07:28 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  CAA Football is a distinct entity. The football members who are not in the all sports CAA are full members of CAA Football with a full vote. There are no affiliate members of CAA Football. Yes, there are a number of shared resources with the all sports CAA but Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Albany, Stony Brook, Richmond, and Villanova have the same membership rights and vote as Delaware, Towson, JMU, Elon, and William and Mary. They have the ability to band together and outvote the core CAA schools.

I think the only distinction is that an all sports school admitted to the CAA gains automatic football admission.

(04-27-2020 08:02 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is CAA football obliged to offer membership to any full member of CAA?

CAA Football: Albany, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Towson, Villanova, William & Mary

Let's say the CAA said you had to be a football member to be in and you had to be all in or out. Villanova would be out for sure, they're not giving up the Big East. Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, and Stony Brook should easily give up the America East for the Colonial as in men's basketball it's a step up although geographically it's more of a challenge. But the CAA would be trading away Charleston, Drexel, Hofstra, Northeastern, and UNC Wilmington for Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, and Stony Brook. Stony Brook for Hofstra keeps the New York market. New Hampshire and Maine allows them to stay in New England but they won't be in Boston. They'd lose Philly in Drexel but is Delaware enough? They'd lose Charleston and South Carolina but that would save them travel on the south end, especially since teams will have to travel further north to go to New Hampshire/Maine. Elon is further north than Wilmington, NC so getting rid of UNCW will save them some southern miles. For the CAA football all in plan to work, Richmond and Rhode Island would have to give up the A-10. Is it worth the CAA to trade the non football schools for the football schools? Should Richmond and Rhode Island go from the A-10 to the CAA? If not, would a 9 team all in CAA work with just Albany, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Maine, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Towson, William & Mary?

The answer is no, Richmond and Rhode Island would not leave the A-10. Richmond left the CAA to join the A-10.

For the VA schools, Richmond is a big game, W&M and JMU, possibly others, would not be happy to have Richmond booted from the football side of the conference.

I'm entirely indifferent towards any of the New England schools, though UNH is at least generally one of the better FCS teams. Even Albany and Stony Brook aren't really games I care about.

Honestly, the CAA makes 0 sense. It used to be a strong, Virginia-centric basketball conference that would often get multiple bids. But, VCU, GMU, and ODU left, and the conference is kind of a mish mosh now of schools. The schools tend to invest more into athletics than other 1 bid leagues do, and it's generally a half step up from conferences like the ASun, American East, or NEC, but it really doesn't make any sense. In what world are Northeastern and the College of Charleston logical conference mates?

The conference works well enough for WM, as we get to make trips to some of the school's large student body recruiting bases in Philly, NYC ish, and Boston, but as a whole it's kind of a mess.

(04-27-2020 09:23 AM)schmolik Wrote:  CAA Football: Albany, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Towson, Villanova, William & Mary

Let's say the CAA said you had to be a football member to be in and you had to be all in or out.

Couple of big problems with this, the two major ones are that

1) I really can't stress this enough, every member of CAA Football is already all-in because it's a single-sport conference

2) There are only 5 football-playing CAA schools, so they don't have the votes to expell anyone from the CAA or remake CAA Football unilaterally. They probably can't even get the votes to add the necessary number of football schools to make football a CAA sport.

(04-27-2020 09:23 AM)schmolik Wrote:  For the CAA football all in plan to work, Richmond and Rhode Island would have to give up the A-10.

Nobody's leaving the A-10 for the CAA (nevermind Villanova). People also forget that there are two other A10 football schools stashed elsewhere as affiliates (I'll get back to this in a bit).

If, for the sake of the discussion, we assume JMU & Friends got the green light to make football a CAA no-affiliates sport, they could probably pry away Albany and Stony Brook as a duo, but URI/Richmond/Nova are all off the table from day 1. Maine and New Hampshire are trickier, because I don't think they want to be flying their Olympics all up and down the east coast, and I don't think the schools in the Carolinas want to be flying their Olympics to them either.

I suspect there's a good chance that in this scenario, where five schools blow up the top-end FCS conference in the East for apparent funsies, we see a re-launch of A10 football around a core of URI/Fordham/Duquesne/Richmond as well as Villanova. Monmouth is likely beside themselves at their good fortune and say yes as an affiliate at the first phone call, and that's six right there. My guess is Maine and UNH look at the cost of flying all their teams everywhere, look at the coalescing A10 football, and decide to stay in AE and dump the savings into their hockey teams (or, more accurately, decline to sign up for a big increase in travel at a time when universities are getting hammered). America East likely backfills with Central Connecticut and another team to get A10 football to 10 and there's your conference. Maybe Merrimack's geography and Hockey East connections get them the spot.

That being said, given the current climate around Covid as well as one-bid conferences with excessive Olympic travel, I don't think it's a given that two New York state universities get the go-ahead from the governor's office to significantly increase their travel if this northeastern league is coming into form. Maybe Albany and Stony Brook are gettable, maybe not.

On the CAA's side of things, they maybe get the two New York schools, and then they're probably grabbing three (or five) schools out of the Big South and/or SoCon. They can get to 10 football schools, but the conference is ballooned up to 15 members as a low-major and the non-football schools are likely unhappy losing their voting parity (and realistically you're adding a couple schools to keep them satisfied). It's a mess logistically and a step down from the current arrangement, which works for everyone.

Sorry, I'm posting a lot, but the CAA is just such an odd conglomerate of schools and it's kind of mind boggling how illogical it winds up being when you break it down.


If I could completely make a conference on my own, it would look something like:

W&M
JMU
Delaware
Towson
Elon
Stony Brook
UNCW (No football)
American (No football)
UNC Greensboro (No Football)
Hofstra (No Football)

Football only:
Richmond
Villanova

Maybe (Stretches the geography a bit, but Coc/Siena have pretty solid fan support, Northeastern adds the Boston market, and Albany gets us to 9 football playing schools):
College of Charleston
Siena/Northeastern/Albany

10 teams for basketball, 8 for football. It's a more geographically compact league, with teams based mostly in decent media markets or teams with decent followings and fan bases. I'm not certain Stony Brook or UNCG would actually have an interest in this league. The league splits well enough into a northern and southern half for both football (Elon, Richmond, WM, JMU////Villanova, Hofstra, Delware, Towson) and basketball (Elon, UNCW, UNCG, JMU, WM/////American, Towson, Delaware, Hofstra, Stony Brook). American isn't that strong athletically but every school in this conference recruits a lot of Northern VA kids and would love to have some presence there, the CAA is playing their basketball tournament in DC for a reason. Actually, that's an advantage this conference has in general, it covers a lot of ground that these schools all recruit students from in general.

I would be open to having UNH as a football only member, but I can't imagine they would actually be interested, without the other New England schools or Albany, as 9 or 10 football schools is probably more ideal for filling out schedules.

For the maybes, I also like the College of Charleston, but they're a real geographical outlier and I'm not sure how the northern schools feel about them. It is nice that 1 CAA school gets to compete in the Charleston Classic every year. I like Siena because they draw 5-6k fans per game and will travel to a conference tournament. Northeastern invests well in basketball and are generally competitive, but I don't think they tend to get 1,000 fans in the arena most nights.

If possible I would also want to have some rule where Nova and Richmond have to play at least 2 CAA schools a year in basketball, including at least one road game every other year. Not sure Nova would agree to that though. Richmond plays WM and JMU enough that I doubt they would really object.

(04-27-2020 12:21 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Sorry, I'm posting a lot, but the CAA is just such an odd conglomerate of schools and it's kind of mind boggling how illogical it winds up being when you break it down.


If I could completely make a conference on my own, it would look something like:

W&M
JMU
Delaware
Towson
Elon
Stony Brook
UNCW (No football)
American (No football)
UNC Greensboro (No Football)
Hofstra (No Football)

Football only:
Richmond
Villanova

Maybe (Stretches the geography a bit, but Coc/Siena have pretty solid fan support, Northeastern adds the Boston market, and Albany gets us to 9 football playing schools):
College of Charleston
Siena/Northeastern/Albany

10 teams for basketball, 8 for football. It's a more geographically compact league, with teams based mostly in decent media markets or teams with decent followings and fan bases. I'm not certain Stony Brook or UNCG would actually have an interest in this league. The league splits well enough into a northern and southern half for both football (Elon, Richmond, WM, JMU////Villanova, Hofstra, Delware, Towson) and basketball (Elon, UNCW, UNCG, JMU, WM/////American, Towson, Delaware, Hofstra, Stony Brook). American isn't that strong athletically but every school in this conference recruits a lot of Northern VA kids and would love to have some presence there, the CAA is playing their basketball tournament in DC for a reason. Actually, that's an advantage this conference has in general, it covers a lot of ground that these schools all recruit students from in general.

I would be open to having UNH as a football only member, but I can't imagine they would actually be interested, without the other New England schools or Albany, as 9 or 10 football schools is probably more ideal for filling out schedules.

For the maybes, I also like the College of Charleston, but they're a real geographical outlier and I'm not sure how the northern schools feel about them. It is nice that 1 CAA school gets to compete in the Charleston Classic every year. I like Siena because they draw 5-6k fans per game and will travel to a conference tournament. Northeastern invests well in basketball and are generally competitive, but I don't think they tend to get 1,000 fans in the arena most nights.

If possible I would also want to have some rule where Nova and Richmond have to play at least 2 CAA schools a year in basketball, including at least one road game every other year. Not sure Nova would agree to that though. Richmond plays WM and JMU enough that I doubt they would really object.

Yea, it's weird, CAA pulled a bunch of schools out of AE over the years and I like where AE wound up way more than the CAA's current alignment.

For me yes there should be requirements most in non conference rpi/net numbers. Though what's better winnable games or games that boosts just boost strength of schedule (tier 1 or tier 2 team) I'd prefer a all D1 basketball schedule for the schools though I'm curious if it's better stat wise to play 4 non D1 schools then 4 sub 300 net teams a year.

I don’t see A-10 football ever happening again. There isn’t a whole lot of homogeneity among their 4 FCS programs and they’re happy where they are.

If there was drama and intrigue in the CAA, say JMU goes to FBS, I see William & Mary (all sports) and Richmond (fb) to the Patriot being a plausible outcome. The Patriot, after all, has a better academic reputation, although CAA Is also highly respected.

At that point, I think the 4 America East schools take over administration of the football conference.

I think there’s just too much strife within the CAA for common ground to be found. Northeastern and Hofstra will block any FCS schools from becoming full members (CoC and UNCW will join that voting block)

Who knows. I could be all wrong. Losing JMU might not have any big repercussions and they just add someone like Hartford or a well regarded Southern school into the CAA and add Monmouth to CAA FB to maintain an even 12 members.

(04-27-2020 01:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I don’t see A-10 football ever happening again. There isn’t a whole lot of homogeneity among their 4 FCS programs and they’re happy where they are.

I don't think it will happen either, but this conversation was framed specifically if the 5 CAA schools withdrew from CAA Football and looked to add five football-playing schools as full members to the CAA. You're left with Richmond, URI, Nova, and whatever AE schools don't leave for the CAA. I think the first place they turn are the other A10 schools and Monmouth, if for no other reason than they aren't handcuffed by a primary conference affiliation (also geography). Whether it's the A-10, America East, or a brand new logo at the top of the letterhead - again, that's just window dressing.

(04-26-2020 09:25 PM)Bogg Wrote:  It doesn't really matter whether they share a commissioner, being a full member with all voting and rights privileges is a much more stable position to be in than an affiliate of a conference you aren't a full member of (and thus droppable).

That's the whole point, isn't it? The label "hybrid conference" isn't a thing; it's just a term people use on message boards.

If a school is a full member of a conference, whether or not the school has a football team in the conference, then they have the same rights (and the same security against being kicked out) as every other full member. If a school is an affiliate for only one sport, then they can lose their affiliation ("be kicked out") whenever their affiliate contract ends (e.g., Temple, New Mexico State, Idaho) and there doesn't need to be any reason given for ending the affiliation.

(04-27-2020 08:02 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is CAA football obliged to offer membership to any full member of CAA?

I don't believe so but that's a distinction without a difference anyway, since the schools they've added either a) had football that would be a good fit for CAA Football, or b) don't have football. If they wanted a Big South or SoCon football-playing school, football would probably have to be in the equation from the school's perspective, since the BS or SoCon wouldn't let their football stick around, most likely.

If Davidson with its non-scholarship football had taken the invitation that it was offered at the same time as Charleston, in theory that would have caused an issue, but in reality it's unlikely. If Davidson wanted scholarship FCS football, they would have joined the SoCon for that sport, and they never did. My guess is they'd be happy to keep it in the Pioneer while moving the rest of their sports. Moot point as they joined the A10 anyway.

tl;dr CAA Football isn't obligated to invite schools but if a CAA expansion candidate had substandard football that needed to come along, they probably wouldn't be a candidate for long anyway.

I posted this on the ODU board, but I wonder if the CAA and CAA Football could do something like the ASUN wants to do with the CCSA where it turns the CCSA into a full-sports conference and moves the original ASUN schools there, leaving the shell to rebuild into something else.

In this scenario, enough CAA schools for continuity purposes shift over to CAA Football, bringing with it the CAA name. The conference that used to be the CAA then adds enough schools to move forward as an FBS conference.

I *think* this would work, or at least be theoretically permissible:

CAA (formerly CAA Football):
William & Mary
Towson
Elon
Delaware
Drexel (non-FB)
Hofstra (non-FB)
Northeastern (non-FB)
UNC Wilmington (non-FB)
Albany
Stony Brook
New Hampshire (FB only)
Maine (FB only)
Rhode Island (FB only)
(Teams that qualify to give this group the continuity to continue as a conference are in italics)

EASTERN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION (former CAA)
ODU
JMU
Liberty
Marshall
Charlotte
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Middle Tennessee
WKU
Charleston (non-FB)
Belmont (non-FB)

If Delaware wanted to move up to FBS and join the EAA, there would be room and the 10 football teams would form divisions IF the Atlantic Sun's interpretation of seven schools forming continuity is correct, which it may not be. I believe both Elon and Charleston would be in the CAA long enough to qualify as part of the continuity block, at least per the ASUN's reckoning; I moved Charleston to the new conference on the premise that it would be a better basketball conference, though it's also possible that they'd prefer the relationship with the Northeast schools over the better basketball ones. EDIT: I now see that there's only eight basketball schools in the new CAA, so I converted Albany and Stony Brook to full members in the scenario that CAA administration told Hofstra to suck it up, buttercup.

That's probably an entirely too simplistic breakdown and would require a lot of dominoes to fall just so, and it could just be flat out wrong. So keep that in mind.

(04-26-2020 01:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If you look around FBS and FCS the following schools reside in football playing conferences but don’t sponsor football in the league:

What are your thoughts?

You're operating on the assumption that these nonfootball schools are getting a piece of the pie, and that if they're not putting resources into football, they're not earning their piece of the pie.

For most of these leagues, though, there really isn't any pie. There's one NCAA credit per year, divided between 8 and 14 schools.

So having schools like Arkansas-Little Rock in the Sun Belt makes travel work better, so they do it.

Yes, the CAA is kind of a mess. But it's not a mess because it's a hybrid, it's a mess because it was one thing (Virginia bus league with occassional multi-bid years), tried to become another thing (eastern seaboard league from Atlanta to Boston, a junior A-10) and then realignment wrecked both of those plans.

But I don't think that gets solved by the CAA trying to swing its football weight around--you're more likely to see Delaware and Towson join their eastern-seaboard-state-university brethren in America East.

But I don't think anybody's going to try a power play like that at the FCS / one-bid league level.

I never liked Drexel in the Colonial. I thought it was a Virginia dominated league before George Mason and VCU left, now it's mainly a Southern conference. The problem is I'm not sure there's a better conference for them. The Patriot League is geographically more friendly and academically better but probably a step down men's basketball wise. Would the Patriot League take Northeastern as a rival to Boston U or would BU not want them? I'm sure they'd take Hofstra in a second to get into New York but would Drexel and Hofstra leave? The MAAC is also geographically better, probably lower than the CAA but higher than the Patriot and lesser academically than the Patriot. Would the Metro Atlantic want another New York school (Hofstra)? Would they want Northeastern (adds Boston but it's a long trip for everyone)? Would they take just Drexel? If not, is there a suitable 12th team? I'd probably be happier if Drexel played in either the Patriot or MAAC although I'm not sure financially it would be for the best.

(04-27-2020 03:56 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I never liked Drexel in the Colonial. I thought it was a Virginia dominated league before George Mason and VCU left, now it's mainly a Southern conference. The problem is I'm not sure there's a better conference for them. The Patriot League is geographically more friendly and academically better but probably a step down men's basketball wise. Would the Patriot League take Northeastern as a rival to Boston U or would BU not want them? I'm sure they'd take Hofstra in a second to get into New York but would Drexel and Hofstra leave? The MAAC is also geographically better, probably lower than the CAA but higher than the Patriot and lesser academically than the Patriot. Would the Metro Atlantic want another New York school (Hofstra)? Would they want Northeastern (adds Boston but it's a long trip for everyone)? Would they take just Drexel? If not, is there a suitable 12th team? I'd probably be happier if Drexel played in either the Patriot or MAAC although I'm not sure financially it would be for the best.

Northeastern and Hofstra are not close to academically fit to be in the Patriot. Northeastern are strivers, and they aren't going to downgrade themselves to the MAAC willingly. People have asked why CofC and NU need to be conference mates, but honestly those are two VERY similar student bodies.

If JMU leaves for the FBS, I don't think there will be a big change for the CAA. The CAA would still be a much stronger football conference- the PL has been a one bid league for a while. Honestly, the last few years the question has been whether the Patriot League autobid would go to a team with a losing record. Also, the Academic Index isn't a great match for a public school, even a strong public like W&M. Travel, believe it or not, is probably better in the CAA. Maine and UNH are far, but are very close to airports with direct flights to Philly and DC (Manchester and Bangor). The same can't be said for Colgate, Bucknell, Lehigh, and Lafayette).

I don't think there's a major power play to be made by the America East, either. No one is going to buy that Maine and UNH want to play in a regional bus league. UNH has spent more on football lately than hockey. They didn't do that to play Central Connecticut, Bryant, and Merrimack. They have been a national power recently, and having one competitive conference game against Maine and five blowouts won't help. Maine does most of its recruiting in the mid-Atlantic (NY, PA, NJ, MD) and would rather play games down there. Also, I'm not sure Maine would look at the price tag of football as that palatable if the games were against small private New England schools.

I think the northern schools could take or leave Elon as a conference mate, but otherwise I don't know what school is unhappy in the CAA, or would be unhappy if JMU left. The CAA would still be a major power. Elon gets a ton of students from the Northeast anyways, so it isn't the end of the world for them to be on a geographic island.

To me one of the weirdest things is how Delaware, Towson, Drexel, and Hofstra have been together in three different conferences over the last few decades, and yet... is there anything else those schools all have in common? Because I've never been able to think of anything.