I’ve wanted to do an extended post on this subject for a while now. Prior to 1960 their was no permanent professional football presence in the South. A few one season long failed attempts, yes, but they were exactly that, failures. Back then, small private schools, as well as academically elite publics who had similar strict admissions standards, could pull a steady draw from the community because they were the biggest show in town.

Fast forward to today and there are 9 NFL teams in the South. The NFL arrived in those cities in the following years:

Dallas 1960
Houston 1960
Atlanta 1966
Miami 1966
New Orleans 1967
Tampa Bay 1976
Jacksonville 1995
Charlotte 1995
Nashville 1998

The loyalties of the populace in those have shifted towards the pro game. The private, academic types. In places like Tampa, Jacksonville, and Charlotte there weren’t local teams that were directly impacted but the same cannot be said of the others. Look at the average attendances at these programs from 2019:

Tulane 20.3K
Rice 22.2K
SMU 23.6K
Vandy 26.3K

GT and U of Miami haven’t been hit quite as hard: 44.6K and 52.8K What separates them from the first 4 is that they’ve enjoyed some successful seasons since the arrival of the NFL but if they fall on hard times and wins become scarce they could be right there too.

I venture to say that the presence of the Carolina Panthers also pulls away fans from privates like Duke (25.8K) and WF (27.0K).

Fighting for relevance in a crowded market when your alumni base is small is far from a Southern phenomenon. Ask Boston College, Pitt, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern how it’s been; they’ve been dealing with it for far longer. Or ask Syracuse, who also got a rival for the hearts of Western New Yorkers in 1960, the same year that professional football began its invasion of the South.

The conclusion I’m drawing is that the college game is losing a protracted war of attrition in places where the local school is small and/or has high admissions standards or is a relative newcomer (UNC Charlotte, Georgia St, USF, FIU types). Vanderbilt is a dead man walking; maybe the rest of the SEC already knows this, maybe they don’t.

I think these types of programs should consider pooling together into their own athletic conference, a Magnolia League. Their academic reputation speaks for themselves. They all have big endowments. Why keep trying to keep up with the Alabama’s and Texas’s of college sports in an arms race they can’t win?

There was a program at the University of Tampa, but I believe they dropped football just before the Buccanneers came to town.

Texas A&M in the 50s played its home games vs. Rice at Rice Stadium because they drew better crowds. The Cotton Bowl was known as the "House that Doak Built." (Heisman winner Doak Walker at SMU). It seated over 60,000 because SMU filled it.

There is no doubt that the Oilers and Cowboys killed the SWC. It just took SMU's death penalty to finish off what the pros started. The SWC had 4 schools in Houston and DFW. All had anemic attendance by the 90s. It is not just politics that the 4 programs that joined the Big 12 were not in Houston or DFW.

Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

I’ll also toss out this idea: if the Texas governor still insists on Baylor getting to tag along in 1996 maybe we get a Big 14 with BYU as the 14th member. This would have some carryover impact on the WAC—if Nevada is in the WAC instead of BYU maybe we get a stable WAC-16. Utah could be in the Quad with Wyoming, Colorado St, and AFA while Nevada, UNLV, UTEP, and UNM formed another. No airport meeting, no MWC.

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

You are one short - South Carolina would be in the spot vacated by Ga Tech. So the ACC would still need one more to get to 14 football schools. It would come down to Louisville vs WVU.

Tulane is up with the Big boys, who gets sent to the minors in their place?

(05-15-2020 01:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve wanted to do an extended post on this subject for a while now. Prior to 1960 their was no permanent professional football presence in the South. A few one season long failed attempts, yes, but they were exactly that, failures. Back then, small private schools, as well as academically elite publics who had similar strict admissions standards, could pull a steady draw from the community because they were the biggest show in town.

Fast forward to today and there are 9 NFL teams in the South. The NFL arrived in those cities in the following years:

Dallas 1960
Houston 1960
Atlanta 1966
Miami 1966
New Orleans 1967
Tampa Bay 1976
Jacksonville 1995
Charlotte 1995
Nashville 1998

The loyalties of the populace in those have shifted towards the pro game. The private, academic types. In places like Tampa, Jacksonville, and Charlotte there weren’t local teams that were directly impacted but the same cannot be said of the others. Look at the average attendances at these programs from 2019:

Tulane 20.3K
Rice 22.2K
SMU 23.6K
Vandy 26.3K

GT and U of Miami haven’t been hit quite as hard: 44.6K and 52.8K What separates them from the first 4 is that they’ve enjoyed some successful seasons since the arrival of the NFL but if they fall on hard times and wins become scarce they could be right there too.

I venture to say that the presence of the Carolina Panthers also pulls away fans from privates like Duke (25.8K) and WF (27.0K).

Fighting for relevance in a crowded market when your alumni base is small is far from a Southern phenomenon. Ask Boston College, Pitt, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern how it’s been; they’ve been dealing with it for far longer. Or ask Syracuse, who also got a rival for the hearts of Western New Yorkers in 1960, the same year that professional football began its invasion of the South.

The conclusion I’m drawing is that the college game is losing a protracted war of attrition in places where the local school is small and/or has high admissions standards or is a relative newcomer (UNC Charlotte, Georgia St, USF, FIU types). Vanderbilt is a dead man walking; maybe the rest of the SEC already knows this, maybe they don’t.

I think these types of programs should consider pooling together into their own athletic conference, a Magnolia League. Their academic reputation speaks for themselves. They all have big endowments. Why keep trying to keep up with the Alabama’s and Texas’s of college sports in an arms race they can’t win?

Duke and WF are 90 minutes to 2 hours away from Charlotte. Both have a stadium with less than 35,000 seats. Wake has 4,000 students and a limited alumni base.

(05-15-2020 04:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

You are one short - South Carolina would be in the spot vacated by Ga Tech. So the ACC would still need one more to get to 14 football schools. It would come down to Louisville vs WVU.

Tulane is up with the Big boys, who gets sent to the minors in their place?

Right. I missed that.

My guess is Louisville or WVU.

I think it’s a toss up for who get’s Maryland’s spot in the ACC. Whichever one doesn’t get picked stays in the AAC.

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

I’ll also toss out this idea: if the Texas governor still insists on Baylor getting to tag along in 1996 maybe we get a Big 14 with BYU as the 14th member. This would have some carryover impact on the WAC—if Nevada is in the WAC instead of BYU maybe we get a stable WAC-16. Utah could be in the Quad with Wyoming, Colorado St, and AFA while Nevada, UNLV, UTEP, and UNM formed another. No airport meeting, no MWC.

I do not think Baylor would have been a consideration for the Big 12 in 2012. Assuming they would have been in CUSA since at least 2005 (perhaps in the WAC before that?), they would have been a nothing program. Baylor was absolutely flaming garbage on the field until Art Briles showed up. And they couldn't have had that rebirth without the Big 12 money flowing in. I think Baylor would have been, at best, an SMU level program and potentially worse. In 2012, assuming TCU is as excellent as they were IRL, they are joined either by a Big East team (WVU) or BYU.

I was just playing out the South Carolina situation on the PS3 by having Miami join the SEC East instead of USC with FSU still going to the ACC. I debated back and forth about whether the ACC would want them as a 10th school, but I ended up pushing them into a slightly reconfigured Big East that also includes East Carolina. WVU-VT-USC-ECU gives the conference a decent southern feel despite the northern teams. I may add Louisville and Cincinnati at some point on the road to 12.

(05-15-2020 05:18 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

I’ll also toss out this idea: if the Texas governor still insists on Baylor getting to tag along in 1996 maybe we get a Big 14 with BYU as the 14th member. This would have some carryover impact on the WAC—if Nevada is in the WAC instead of BYU maybe we get a stable WAC-16. Utah could be in the Quad with Wyoming, Colorado St, and AFA while Nevada, UNLV, UTEP, and UNM formed another. No airport meeting, no MWC.

I do not think Baylor would have been a consideration for the Big 12 in 2012. Assuming they would have been in CUSA since at least 2005 (perhaps in the WAC before that?), they would have been a nothing program. Baylor was absolutely flaming garbage on the field until Art Briles showed up. And they couldn't have had that rebirth without the Big 12 money flowing in. I think Baylor would have been, at best, an SMU level program and potentially worse. In 2012, assuming TCU is as excellent as they were IRL, they are joined either by a Big East team (WVU) or BYU.

I was just playing out the South Carolina situation on the PS3 by having Miami join the SEC East instead of USC with FSU still going to the ACC. I debated back and forth about whether the ACC would want them as a 10th school, but I ended up pushing them into a slightly reconfigured Big East that also includes East Carolina. WVU-VT-USC-ECU gives the conference a decent southern feel despite the northern teams. I may add Louisville and Cincinnati at some point on the road to 12.

Baylor would have been in the WAC from 1996-2004 (instead of Tulsa). In 2005 they would have gone to C-USA with Rice, Houston, and SMU the same as Tulsa did. (Ironically I think Tulsa ends up in C-USA earlier in place of Tulane).

If TCU was able to make the G5 to P5 transition I think Baylor could too.

(05-15-2020 06:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 05:18 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

I’ll also toss out this idea: if the Texas governor still insists on Baylor getting to tag along in 1996 maybe we get a Big 14 with BYU as the 14th member. This would have some carryover impact on the WAC—if Nevada is in the WAC instead of BYU maybe we get a stable WAC-16. Utah could be in the Quad with Wyoming, Colorado St, and AFA while Nevada, UNLV, UTEP, and UNM formed another. No airport meeting, no MWC.

I do not think Baylor would have been a consideration for the Big 12 in 2012. Assuming they would have been in CUSA since at least 2005 (perhaps in the WAC before that?), they would have been a nothing program. Baylor was absolutely flaming garbage on the field until Art Briles showed up. And they couldn't have had that rebirth without the Big 12 money flowing in. I think Baylor would have been, at best, an SMU level program and potentially worse. In 2012, assuming TCU is as excellent as they were IRL, they are joined either by a Big East team (WVU) or BYU.

I was just playing out the South Carolina situation on the PS3 by having Miami join the SEC East instead of USC with FSU still going to the ACC. I debated back and forth about whether the ACC would want them as a 10th school, but I ended up pushing them into a slightly reconfigured Big East that also includes East Carolina. WVU-VT-USC-ECU gives the conference a decent southern feel despite the northern teams. I may add Louisville and Cincinnati at some point on the road to 12.

Baylor would have been in the WAC from 1996-2004 (instead of Tulsa). In 2005 they would have gone to C-USA with Rice, Houston, and SMU the same as Tulsa did. (Ironically I think Tulsa ends up in C-USA earlier in place of Tulane).

If TCU was able to make the G5 to P5 transition I think Baylor could too.

Baylor was a disaster after Grant Teaff retired in the 90s.

(05-15-2020 01:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think these types of programs should consider pooling together into their own athletic conference, a Magnolia League. Their academic reputation speaks for themselves. They all have big endowments. Why keep trying to keep up with the Alabama’s and Texas’s of college sports in an arms race they can’t win?

Except I don't think Vandy is actually trying to "keep up" with Bama ... they seem to be trying to have some home wins in any given year and avoid totally humiliating themselves in FB, which in turn keeps them in a high major Basketball conference that typically offers an unusually high percentage of easy wins for a high major BBall conference.

They don't really have to play the Bama game of having a bigger off-field FB staff than the number of players they are allowed to put on scholarship, because the championships they are realistically aiming for are in BBall and the other Olympic sports.

(05-15-2020 04:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

You are one short - South Carolina would be in the spot vacated by Ga Tech. So the ACC would still need one more to get to 14 football schools. It would come down to Louisville vs WVU.

Tulane is up with the Big boys, who gets sent to the minors in their place?

IMO SC ends up in the Big East in the early 90s with former Metro Conference opponents and then probably gets the nod over Missouri in 2012

(05-15-2020 01:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve wanted to do an extended post on this subject for a while now. Prior to 1960 their was no permanent professional football presence in the South. A few one season long failed attempts, yes, but they were exactly that, failures. Back then, small private schools, as well as academically elite publics who had similar strict admissions standards, could pull a steady draw from the community because they were the biggest show in town.

Interesting idea, but we'd need before-and-after data to know, and some of the schools just do not fit the model. Tulane left the SEC in 1965, before the Saints arrived. Miami boomed during the 1980s, after the Dolphins arrived. SMU was a Big Deal in Dallas despite the Cowboys, it was the cheating scandal that knocked them down. Rice and Vandy were never much in the way of attendance or prominence. Duke and Wake Forest attendance wasn't any better before Carolina Panthers arrived.

Hell ... that's just about everyone you mentioned, LOL. And overall, I wouldn't say college football is any less popular "in the South" than it was before the NFL invaded the territory.

The other question that ties to this is would Tampa have stayed in D1 if the Bucs hadn't come and as a result, would USF have been more reluctant to start their program if they had to compete with a UTampa team that has access to Tampa Stadium?

(05-15-2020 01:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  There was a program at the University of Tampa, but I believe they dropped football just before the Buccanneers came to town.

True.

The Tampa Spartans actually had a serious albeit small-time program for about 40 years and turned out a handful of NFL players — Freddie Solomon of the 49’ers probably the last big-name star. Also, they had quite a few notable Head Coaches, including Earle Bruce (Ohio State HC) and 1942 Heisman-winner Frank Sinkwich.

Ultimately they just could not devote the financial resources needed to keep it going, and they disbanded the program after the 1974 season. The existence of the Buccaneers had been publicly announced earlier that year, and I can’t help but wonder if that played a role in UT’s decision, even though the Bucs would not take the field until ’76.

(05-16-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 04:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a shadow of what they were in 1966 when they left the SEC. They didn't leave the SEC because of the competition like Suwannee and Tulane did.

That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

You are one short - South Carolina would be in the spot vacated by Ga Tech. So the ACC would still need one more to get to 14 football schools. It would come down to Louisville vs WVU.

Tulane is up with the Big boys, who gets sent to the minors in their place?

IMO SC ends up in the Big East in the early 90s with former Metro Conference opponents and then probably gets the nod over Missouri in 2012

I think they start as a football only Big East member but during the 04-05 realignment, if not sooner they go to the ACC.

If you’re correct, and they never make it to the ACC then you’re right; SC makes sense in the SEC in 2012, mainly because it allows them to add an East school that’s actually in the East.

But if they do go to the ACC I think they end up in a similar scenario as VT where they used all their political capital to secure the ACC invite and are now bound to their instate rival.

(05-16-2020 08:11 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  There was a program at the University of Tampa, but I believe they dropped football just before the Buccanneers came to town.

True.

The Tampa Spartans actually had a serious albeit small-time program for about 40 years and turned out a handful of NFL players — Freddie Solomon of the 49’ers probably the last big-name star. Also, they had quite a few notable Head Coaches, including Earle Bruce (Ohio State HC) and 1942 Heisman-winner Frank Sinkwich.

Ultimately they just could not devote the financial resources needed to keep it going, and they disbanded the program after the 1974 season. The existence of the Buccaneers had been publicly announced earlier that year, and I can’t help but wonder if that played a role in UT’s decision, even though the Bucs would not take the field until ’76.

I venture to say that you are correct. The administration at U of Tampa realized they couldn’t compete with the pro team that was on its way so they cut bait.

(05-16-2020 08:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-16-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 04:08 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 03:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  That brings up an interesting side discussion.

What would the SEC be like if Tulane and GT had never left the SEC?

That would have left them at 12, with at the time no room/need for South Carolina and Arkansas. And if they did go to 14 in 2012, would they have picked either of those two instead of Missouri and TAMU?

I’ll bite. Arkansas ends up the Big 12 in 1996 instead of Baylor.

South Carolina gets nervous and gets back into the ACC, which costs BC their slot in 2005.

When the SEC goes to 14 in 2012, Arkansas goes instead of Missouri. The Big 12 replaces Arkansas and Texas A&M with Baylor and TCU.

When the Big 10 also goes to 14 the ACC takes BC, Pitt, and Cuse.

So most everything in the P5 stays the same except:

Missouri (Big 12)
WVU (AAC)
Louisville (AAC)
South Carolina (ACC)

You are one short - South Carolina would be in the spot vacated by Ga Tech. So the ACC would still need one more to get to 14 football schools. It would come down to Louisville vs WVU.

Tulane is up with the Big boys, who gets sent to the minors in their place?

IMO SC ends up in the Big East in the early 90s with former Metro Conference opponents and then probably gets the nod over Missouri in 2012

I think they start as a football only Big East member but during the 04-05 realignment, if not sooner they go to the ACC.

If you’re correct, and they never make it to the ACC then you’re right; SC makes sense in the SEC in 2012, mainly because it allows them to add an East school that’s actually in the East.

But if they do go to the ACC I think they end up in a similar scenario as VT where they used all their political capital to secure the ACC invite and are now bound to their instate rival.

Very very possible that that happens too. They’re mostly gone now, but in the 90s and 2000s there were still a lot of old school ACC boosters and trustees around that probably would’ve pushed for it.

(05-16-2020 07:44 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-15-2020 01:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve wanted to do an extended post on this subject for a while now. Prior to 1960 their was no permanent professional football presence in the South. A few one season long failed attempts, yes, but they were exactly that, failures. Back then, small private schools, as well as academically elite publics who had similar strict admissions standards, could pull a steady draw from the community because they were the biggest show in town.

Interesting idea, but we'd need before-and-after data to know, and some of the schools just do not fit the model. Tulane left the SEC in 1965, before the Saints arrived. Miami boomed during the 1980s, after the Dolphins arrived. SMU was a Big Deal in Dallas despite the Cowboys, it was the cheating scandal that knocked them down. Rice and Vandy were never much in the way of attendance or prominence. Duke and Wake Forest attendance wasn't any better before Carolina Panthers arrived.

Hell ... that's just about everyone you mentioned, LOL. And overall, I wouldn't say college football is any less popular "in the South" than it was before the NFL invaded the territory.

Rice was consistently ranked from ‘46 to ‘61, with three Cotton Bowls, and a Orange, Sugar, and Bluebonnet Bowl appearance. They also played in a very large stadium (still do).

The Houston Oilers and the AFL started in 1960.

On the flip side, the public Houston Cougars had post-Oilers success, largely due to their creative head coach.