Much has been said regarding what Eastern football would have looked like had the JoePa Eastern all sports conference been formed but not much has been written about what Eastern basketball would have looked like. Or maybe they are at the Big East at the very beginning but leave in the 80s.

Who do Providence, UConn, St John’s, Villanova, and Georgetown get to round out the league?

What heights does this conference reach without Syracuse as one of its chief anchors and Pitt and BC absent as well?

(08-04-2020 06:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Much has been said regarding what Eastern football would have looked like had the JoePa Eastern all sports conference been formed but not much has been written about what Eastern basketball would have looked like. Or maybe they are at the Big East at the very beginning but leave in the 80s.

Who do Providence, UConn, St John’s, Villanova, and Georgetown get to round out the league?

What heights does this conference reach without Syracuse as one of its chief anchors and Pitt and BC absent as well?

If Syracuse and BC never signed on, then the other original members likely wouldn’t have been interested in forming this league in the first place. Therefore, Pitt and Villanova (early members but not original members) wouldn’t have been a part of this league either. What would have happened is that some schools would have then begged the Atlantic 10 for a spot.

We might have a Midwest conference with the following lineup:

Butler (Big East)
Creighton (Big East)
Dayton (Atlantic 10)
DePaul (Big East)
Drake (Missouri Valley)
Loyola - Chicago (Missouri Valley)
Marquette (Big East)
Saint Louis (Atlantic 10)
Wichita St (American)
Xavier (Big East)

(08-04-2020 06:56 PM)UConnHusky Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 06:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Much has been said regarding what Eastern football would have looked like had the JoePa Eastern all sports conference been formed but not much has been written about what Eastern basketball would have looked like. Or maybe they are at the Big East at the very beginning but leave in the 80s.

Who do Providence, UConn, St John’s, Villanova, and Georgetown get to round out the league?

What heights does this conference reach without Syracuse as one of its chief anchors and Pitt and BC absent as well?

If Syracuse and BC never signed on, then the other original members likely wouldn’t have been interested in forming this league in the first place. Therefore, Pitt and Villanova (early members but not original members) wouldn’t have been a part of this league either. What would have happened is that some schools would have then begged the Atlantic 10 for a spot.

You don’t think Gavitt could have convinced St John’s and Georgetown into joining them and then the others would have fallen in place?

The NCAA was making it harder for the Eastern independents to make the tournament so forming conferences in the Northeast was inevitable. You don’t think the region’s strongest programs, free of having to consider football interests, would have gravitated towards each other?

BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

(08-04-2020 07:13 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  We might have a Midwest conference with the following lineup:

Butler (Big East)
Creighton (Big East)
Dayton (Atlantic 10)
DePaul (Big East)
Drake (Missouri Valley)
Loyola - Chicago (Missouri Valley)
Marquette (Big East)
Saint Louis (Atlantic 10)
Wichita St (American)
Xavier (Big East)

In the late 80s we had something close to that in the MCC:

Evansville
Xavier
Butler
Loyola
Detroit Mercy
St Louis
Notre Dame
Dayton
Marquette

The only big private basketball schools in the region they were missing were DePaul and Creighton.

This, of course got wrecked by the Metro’s internal fighting, split, and reunion.

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

I’ve read that. (I also read that they preferred Rutgers to Seton Hall but Rutgers opted to stay loyal to Penn St and declined).

Maybe Boston University would be in there to plant a flag in the market but I have no idea what condition their basketball program was in.

I don’t think upstate NY was essential—they took Syracuse because they were Syracuse. Maybe Duquesne for a Pittsburgh presence?

(08-04-2020 08:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

I’ve read that. (I also read that they preferred Rutgers to Seton Hall but Rutgers opted to stay loyal to Penn St and declined).

Maybe Boston University would be in there to plant a flag in the market but I have no idea what condition their basketball program was in.

I don’t think upstate NY was essential—they took Syracuse because they were Syracuse. Maybe Duquesne for a Pittsburgh presence?

Yes, I was thinking maybe of Boston U to get in Boston. Maybe they'd seek out Temple or St. Joseph's to double down in Philadelphia.

(08-04-2020 08:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

I’ve read that. (I also read that they preferred Rutgers to Seton Hall but Rutgers opted to stay loyal to Penn St and declined).

Maybe Boston University would be in there to plant a flag in the market but I have no idea what condition their basketball program was in.

I don’t think upstate NY was essential—they took Syracuse because they were Syracuse. Maybe Duquesne for a Pittsburgh presence?

Pitt wasnt an orginal and was added in response to turning down Penn St.

Syracuse was one of the big dogs and I dont think the Big East would have been the same without them. I don't know of a basketball power with their size and commitment level that could have filled the spot.
If the Eastern 8 dream had come true and included
Penn St, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, and BC, then Dave Gavitt's vision would have still come true but would have had to find 2 replacements and would have had serious competition for northeast dominance. They may have had the same prestige level the A10 currently has.

The northeast corridor (DC to Boston) has lots of great basketball talent. Even without Syracuse (or Pitt and BC), schools that were focused on basketball could have still created a strong basketball-first conference.

Providence (Gavitt), StJohns (Carnasecca), Villanova (Massimino) and Georgetown (Thompson) all had strong investment in basketball and stable future hall-of-fame coaching. These schools would be the core.

UConn, UMass and Temple would be the most likely public schools to join in to new basketball-oriented conference. These three were all trying to create basketball brands.

You then fill-up the balance of the conference with geographic complements (Seton Hall and/or Rutgers; Duquesne and/or WVU). The new conference just needs to ensure that the other schools are committed to basketball.

Basketball in the northeast is like football in the southeast...there is an abundance of talent. Given that Ivy League didn’t want to compete at the highest levels...the territory was ready for a new league.

Pitt and BC didn't add much to basketball in the early years. No loss at all.

Probably bring in Boston U. or Northeastern as #7. Then you have a bunch of options in the A10 as #8 or #9. UMass or Rhode Island. Programs like Fordham and Duquesne that would be projects. St. Bonaventure had a decent history. Richmond.

UMass would have been a suitable replacement for BC.

Still cannot replace Syracuse though

I’ve always wondered what would have happened if Syracuse and BC just decided to join the Eastern 8 as a potential precursor to creating an east coast football league. The members would have been Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Penn State, West Virginia, Rutgers, Villanova, UMass, GW, and Duquesne. Do they cut the basketball schools when they want to form football or does it become a hybrid like the Big East?

The all eastern concept I can buy into is the one Temple’s AD tried to sell and not Paterno’s. Paterno just had ideas and opinions, but Casale’s seemed to have actual buy-in, until Penn State didn’t, then others, like Army and Navy, wouldn’t go either.

Had Casale been able to swing it, and you had those BE schools with PSU and the SA’s, I wonder if there’s a chance the Big East doubles down in Philly and taps Saint Joe’s with Villanova, or something similar in the DC metro or NY metro.

I doubt that the Big East would have been as low as A-10 level. Not having Syracuse hurts but it also creates a vacuum for someone else to fill. Georgetown, St John’s, and Villanova were still capable of carrying that league.

(08-05-2020 06:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The all eastern concept I can buy into is the one Temple’s AD tried to sell and not Paterno’s. Paterno just had ideas and opinions, but Casale’s seemed to have actual buy-in, until Penn State didn’t, then others, like Army and Navy, wouldn’t go either.

Had Casale been able to swing it, and you had those BE schools with PSU and the SA’s, I wonder if there’s a chance the Big East doubles down in Philly and taps Saint Joe’s with Villanova, or something similar in the DC metro or NY metro.

What was available in the late 70s and 1980s was not the holy-grail “eastern concept”...that Eastern conference would require PSU, Pitt, Cuse and WVU to gel and collaborate.

I’m wondering about forming a powerful eastern basketball-first conference. Similar to the original Big East, but without the complexities of having to be a hybrid conference. Syracuse, BC and Pitt have been committed to high level collegiate athletics...but football revenue has been growing so much faster than basketball revenue over the past 40 years, that hybrid model became too difficult to maintain over the years.

Schools like Georgetown, Providence, StJohn’s and Nova didn’t sponsor FBS football, so they are appropriately focused on building the conference’s basketball brand. But these schools would have greatly benefited from diversifying away from being a conference of small, Catholic institutions.

UConn and UMass would be easy candidates for this basketball-first conference. Both schools were investing heavily in basketball (see JCalhoun and JCalipari) and did not sponsor FBS football. Temple also would have been a great candidate. Temple had a great run with Litwack, acquired Chaney from Cheney, and built McGonigle Hall to create independence from the Palestra/Big 5...in brief, Temple prioritized basketball. Although they’ve had FBS football, Temple seemed to be deprioritizing football for many decades.

As basketball brands, replacing BC and Pitt would have been easier than losing out on Syracuse. A school with the basketball pedigree of Temple would have elevated the new conference’s visibility without creating the FBS-revenue growth dilemma.

Without the football schools, a new Northeast-ish basketball conference would have been relatively weak. It would have had access to the four quality programs all have mentioned - Providence, St. John's, Villanova and Georgetown. But there are no other programs that came anywhere close to their stature in the late 1970's, either from the standpoint of marketability or on court performance.

Dayton, Temple and maybe UConn would have been marginal choices at best, and Xavier and UMass would never have been considered. They didn't begin to have success until much later. Calhoun and Cheney weren't yet established coaches - Temple would have been living off Litwak's reputation at that time, and he was long gone.

Most important, I don't think whatever league might have been cobbled together would have drawn the same level of commitment by the fledgling network ESPN. It was that commitment and its marketing success that elevated ALL the original Big East schools, with the subsequent recruiting benefits they reaped.

What might have happened is that instead of an eastern conference those four programs might have joined forces with midwestern Catholic schools sooner. Schools like DePaul (which was actually good under Ray Meyer) and Marquette. Those would have given the league a base of six very good programs, and would have allowed for filling in the geographical holes with schools like Dayton and Temple.

Even so, you would have to wonder whether that league could have withstood poaching by bigger, stronger conferences over time.

(08-04-2020 08:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

I’ve read that. (I also read that they preferred Rutgers to Seton Hall but Rutgers opted to stay loyal to Penn St and declined).

Maybe Boston University would be in there to plant a flag in the market but I have no idea what condition their basketball program was in.

I don’t think upstate NY was essential—they took Syracuse because they were Syracuse. Maybe Duquesne for a Pittsburgh presence?

Why didn't Holy Cross join? Anyone know?

Instead, Holy Cross joined the ECAC North (precursor to the America East) in the same year that the Big East started. It's not a very strong conference - Northeastern, Boston U, Maine, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire, Niagara, Colgate, Canisius. It was a men's basketball-only conference.

I bet they're regretting that decision today.

(08-05-2020 10:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  Without the football schools, a new Northeast-ish basketball conference would have been relatively weak. It would have had access to the four quality programs all have mentioned - Providence, St. John's, Villanova and Georgetown. But there are no other programs that came anywhere close to their stature in the late 1970's, either from the standpoint of marketability or on court performance.

Dayton, Temple and maybe UConn would have been marginal choices at best, and Xavier and UMass would never have been considered. They didn't begin to have success until much later. Calhoun and Cheney weren't yet established coaches - Temple would have been living off Litwak's reputation at that time, and he was long gone.

Most important, I don't think whatever league might have been cobbled together would have drawn the same level of commitment by the fledgling network ESPN. It was that commitment and its marketing success that elevated ALL the original Big East schools, with the subsequent recruiting benefits they reaped.

What might have happened is that instead of an eastern conference those four programs might have joined forces with midwestern Catholic schools sooner. Schools like DePaul (which was actually good under Ray Meyer) and Marquette. Those would have given the league a base of six very good programs, and would have allowed for filling in the geographical holes with schools like Dayton and Temple.

Even so, you would have to wonder whether that league could have withstood poaching by bigger, stronger conferences over time.

You don’t need all 8 schools to be goliaths. I think a basketball conference with the 6 non-fb schools plus 2-3 others from the region could have gotten on quite well.

(08-05-2020 10:27 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 08:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

I’ve read that. (I also read that they preferred Rutgers to Seton Hall but Rutgers opted to stay loyal to Penn St and declined).

Maybe Boston University would be in there to plant a flag in the market but I have no idea what condition their basketball program was in.

I don’t think upstate NY was essential—they took Syracuse because they were Syracuse. Maybe Duquesne for a Pittsburgh presence?

Why didn't Holy Cross join? Anyone know?

Instead, Holy Cross joined the ECAC North (precursor to the America East) in the same year that the Big East started. It's not a very strong conference - Northeastern, Boston U, Maine, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire, Niagara, Colgate, Canisius. It was a men's basketball-only conference.

I bet they're regretting that decision today.

Not 100% sure but the schools had to have a commitment to playing in a TV friendly arena and not just the on-campus gym. Seton Hall, St. John's and Villanova were all willing to comply. I think the Big East was forming for all sports as well and not just basketball -- the Eastern 8 started as a basketball only league, similar to the ECAC. It could have been a commitment larger than Holy Cross wanted to make.