(09-01-2020 02:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-01-2020 11:23 AM)CenterSquarEd Wrote:  Did you dig into the CDC data about what the comorbidities for Covid are? The #1 is pneumonia. These aren’t people who had pre-existing pneumonia conditions when they caught Covid. This is just how death certificates are filled in, the person died of Covid and pneumonia. Or they died of Covid and a heart attack. I wouldn’t read too much into this.

Huh? I've always assumed death certificates are serious documents and doctors don't list things as causes of death unless they, well, helped cause the death.

E.g., if someone has diabetes and gets flattened by a bus crossing a street, is the death certificate going to list a co-cause of diabetes and the bus? No, just the bus, because the diabetes had nothing to do with the death - absent the diabetes, the person still dies via the bus.

But that's not the case with Covid and diabetes. Diabetes is being listed because it contributed to the death - no diabetes, and the person doesn't die from their case of Covid-19, just like absent Covid-19, they don't die from the diabetes.

As for pneumonia, unless it is reported, we don't know if the person who died of covid and pneumonia caught one first or the other first. But it was the one-two punch that killed them.

Let’s start with what you and I agree on. We agree that death certificates are real and contain causes of death.

Now let’s double check those Covid comorbidities ourselves. They’re right here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid.../index.htm

So, as you read them, you can see that not all of these describe pre-existing medical conditions. Not only is the #1 comorbidity pneumonia, but the #2 comorbidity is respiratory failure. You can’t come in alive with a pre-existing case of respiratory failure. That death certificate gets filled out not just with Covid but that the patient died of respiratory failure.

So when you see that 94% number, that’s just the number of Covid death certificates that had a second thing filled out on it. It doesn’t mean Covid only attacks the sick.

(09-01-2020 05:43 PM)CenterSquarEd Wrote:  

(09-01-2020 02:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-01-2020 11:23 AM)CenterSquarEd Wrote:  Did you dig into the CDC data about what the comorbidities for Covid are? The #1 is pneumonia. These aren’t people who had pre-existing pneumonia conditions when they caught Covid. This is just how death certificates are filled in, the person died of Covid and pneumonia. Or they died of Covid and a heart attack. I wouldn’t read too much into this.

Huh? I've always assumed death certificates are serious documents and doctors don't list things as causes of death unless they, well, helped cause the death.

E.g., if someone has diabetes and gets flattened by a bus crossing a street, is the death certificate going to list a co-cause of diabetes and the bus? No, just the bus, because the diabetes had nothing to do with the death - absent the diabetes, the person still dies via the bus.

But that's not the case with Covid and diabetes. Diabetes is being listed because it contributed to the death - no diabetes, and the person doesn't die from their case of Covid-19, just like absent Covid-19, they don't die from the diabetes.

As for pneumonia, unless it is reported, we don't know if the person who died of covid and pneumonia caught one first or the other first. But it was the one-two punch that killed them.

Let’s start with what you and I agree on. We agree that death certificates are real and contain causes of death.

Now let’s double check those Covid comorbidities ourselves. They’re right here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid.../index.htm

So, as you read them, you can see that not all of these describe pre-existing medical conditions. Not only is the #1 comorbidity pneumonia, but the #2 comorbidity is respiratory failure. You can’t come in alive with a pre-existing case of respiratory failure. That death certificate gets filled out not just with Covid but that the patient died of respiratory failure.

Well, first, I never assumed that all co-morbidities describe "pre-existing medical conditions" in the sense of being an ongoing, chronic thing. I do not regard pneumonia as such, nobody just chronically walks around with pneumonia for years the way you do with say aesthma. You catch pneumonia, and then hopefully, you beat it and it is gone. But you can surely catch pneumonia before you catch covid-19, or vice-versa.

Second, apparently, you can come in alive to a hospital with respiratory failure as it is a condition you can have on an ongoing basis:

https://medlineplus.gov/respiratoryfailu...%20organs.

You guys are seemingly taking terms like this, and "MTurn's" mention of "Cardiac arrest" too literally. As in "the person dropped dead of not breathing" and the like which obviously you can't do and then catch Covid 19. But these can be 'chronic' things. Someone can have a history of respiratory failure before catching CV19.

So it makes sense that something like respiratory failure would be listed as a co-morbid on a death certificate only if they came to the hospital with that as something they had before CV, that the medical examiner believed independently combined with CV to kill the patient. It would not make sense to list a cardiac arrest or respiratory failure that only existed because of CV, that was created/caused by CV, as a co-cause of death. The way i describe it seems to fit much better with what a "co-morbidity" is.