(04-23-2022 02:36 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  

(04-22-2022 06:42 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(04-22-2022 10:14 AM)Ewglenn Wrote:  Personally I feel like the idea of staying put is going to cause a collapse in the ACC. The Big 12 did that and they are hurting because of it. I think Clemson and FSU are going to get tired of being at a disadvantage from their SEC competition. Fan support is important and Wake, Duke (football), a lesser degree Syracuse and BC just don’t have enough. The article below is old but it shows a significant drop off at the bottom. I think getting more teams that can get above 40k is important. WVU averages over 55k. UCF, while playing worse home schedules and smaller capacity, averaged slightly less than Syracuse. Cincinnati is similar but just below BC. Cincy sold out all of their games this season with the exception of Murray St. UCF had over 40k in most games. Those numbers are based off 5 year averages.

https://www.si.com/college/ncstate/.amp/...e-rankings

Syracuse has always averaged in the low to mid 40's in attendance except for the last 10 to 12 years. The losing got to be too much for the fanbase. Once they get to being a regular winning program the fans will come back. Looking back at the lone winning season that SU had the last 6 or 7 years, the attendance was well over 40,000. The UCF team that you are promoting to replace some NE programs, has had really good seasons the past 5 years in their 45,000 seat stadium and still averaged less than the 36,000 that SU averaged the last 5 seasons. If UCF had as many fans as you think, it seems they would be expanding their stadium. Not to be overlooked is the fact that SU usually travels very well to bowl games (usually over 20,000) and even outselling WV in their last bowl played against each other in 2018.

They are expanding their stadium. Also, UCF doesn’t have Clemson and FSU on the schedule yearly. I’m sure if UCF had Louisville, Purdue, UVA, NCSU, FCS, ND and FSU on the home schedule they’d have way more fans than Cuse. This year UCF has FCS, Louisville, GT, SMU, Temple, Cincinnati and Navy. That’s probably their best home schedule in a long time.

If I was a foot taller, I would be way taller than most guys on this board. Syracuse does have a pretty good home schedule this season but its not always this good. A point that you seem to overlook is UCF the last 5 seasons went:

9-4
6-4 (covid shortened season)
10-3
12-1
13-0

With that record the last 5 years theey should have averaged more than 36,000, in a metro area of almost 3 million people. I dont know if whos on the home schedule would matter that much. But I do know that if Syracuse was winning like that the last 5 years, it wouldnt matter who is on the schedule, as long as its a schedule thats we are used to playing, the Dome would be pretty full on average, and close to capacity. Now Syracuse, the last 5 years went:

4-8
10-3
5-7
1-10
5-7

Thats a huge difference in the number of wins. And yet Syracuse still had a larger average attendance

And regarding UCF's expansion, they are renovating the stadium. They are removing seats from one section and adding seats to another section for a grand total of 1450 net new seats.

(04-23-2022 02:44 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(04-22-2022 11:23 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-21-2022 06:07 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  In terms of TV revenue, yes, FSU has probably the highest value. But that doesn’t mean that it is the most politically attractive school in the ACC. The TV Value and the influence can be two different things.

Let’s say FSU leaves the ACC and wants to creates its own conference. Who would join? Maybe USF and Jax state?

Then, let’s say UNC decides to leave the ACC and creates a new conference? Duke, NC State and UVa would follow. In turn VT and Wake have to follow. Most likely Clemson and/or GT would follow. That’s already seven or eight schools and from that point, the new conference will be in a position to invite good candidates.

As for the B12, Texas has the most TV value and the biggest influence and that’s why it was able to completely control the conference.

For the Northeast, PSU has the most TV value and the biggest influence and therefore should have created its own conference. It didn’t work out. Still, PSU attracts other Northeastern schools. If Pitt or Cuse were invited to the BIG, they would take it even if the money were same. I even suspect that PSU might have been a factor (not a primary one) for UMCP’s departure. UMCP used to play PSU annually.

As for the ACC, we have a weird political dynamics because the most influential schools don’t generate much football revenue. It’s not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don’t like a Texas style dominant school controlling a conference. My understanding is that many old Hokies didn’t like Louisville because UL was that dominant school in the Metro conference.

I agree with your distinction between highest value (FSU) and most power (UNC). Football generates the most revenue, and value comes from finances…FSU has frequently been the ACC’s best football program. While power is mainly about enabling structural advantages or social preferences…UNC can build and lead coalitions of schools, as well as influence conference decisions. It’s important that Jim Phillips balance decisions to keep those two happy.

With regards to the relationship between PSU and UMCP, I completely disagree. IMO, in the 1960s-80s Maryland somewhat looked down on the academics and tried to blunt the potential future power of PSU. Similar to how UVa opposed VT’s admission into the ACC for many decades, Maryland opposed overtures to PSU. Maryland had influence in the ACC, and used its power to push Penn State away. If anything, renewing the annual football losses to PSU was a negative in Maryland’s decision.

UMCP’s political power and the stance had been changed. It used to reject all the ACC expansion but agreed to accepting later schools inclduing VT, Miami, BC, Cuse and Pitt. To me UMCP had changed from an attracting school to a school being attracted.

PSU was probably not a major factor for UMCP’s decision to join the BIG but I had heard from UMCP fans something like “we lose rivalries with UVa and Duke but we will renew a rivaly with PSU and start a new one with OSU.”

It was Penn State who dropped MD from their schedule back in 94. MD had no "rivalry" with PSU because they could not beat them. You have to be able to win at least one game in 5 or 6 to make it a rivalry. When you are 1-45-1 you are just a happy meal. The only part PSU played in the move was the tip off to the B10 that PSU was talking with WF and VT about a move to the ACC.

Y'all need to remember, UMCP is a slow motion self-immolation that started in 1970.

1970 - Professional and Grad Schools to Baltimore.
1986 - Bobby Ross goes off at UNC thinking that UNC has been given a free time out to kick a winning FG - grabs an official. Former MD AD Bob James makes Bobby sit in the press box next game but crickets out of MD President in the wake of Len Bias overdose and the firing of Lefty.
1987 Bobby Ross goes straight to GT, MD pissed at ACC
1987 Bob James dies unexpectedly
1988 Gene Corrigan replaces James, MD now has no "in" in the ACC office
1990's Monstrous Mismanagement In The Academic and Fund Raising Side of the UMCP - Digs monster holes.
2002 - MD wins NCAA title but is not treated on a par with Duke and UNC, not even on par with NC State when it came to basketball.
2008-9 - The Fridge renege on retirement, MD loses James Franklin
2010 - Sweaty Gary has stop recruiting, appears drunk in dorm photo with girls, Debbie Yow pissed, Debbie leaves but Washington Post and Sweaty Gary take fight public.
2012 - MD System President decides to move UMCP to Big 10. UMCP Chancellor plays along with ACC as a sort of cut out man. Late 2012, MD makes move, tipping off UM and Wisky of PSU wandering eyes. Exposes WF and VT.
2022 - MD remains ****** up. Fund raising still lags because the monies get diverted. They continue to support too many programs and to cling to Title IX like it is a mother hogs last teat.

MD makes $35 million more today than it did in the ACC. In the ACC MD would have made 18 million more than 2012 making the net gain just $15 million. Eventually that spread might rise to $25-30 million once MD has paid back all it's loans and fronted money.

MD now spends even more money from student fees to be in the bottom 25% of the Big 10. They have negotiated a $40 million raise for a cost of $30 million. Maybe this is why no one has heard of MD's Business School?

Here's a better way to look at the genius of Maryland - football revenue for the last decade compared to NC State and Indiana

Year MD NC State Indiana

2011 14 M 22 M 24 M
2012 19 M 25 M 25 M
2013 16 M 32 M 24 M
2014 22 M 38 M 26 M
2015 30 M 40 M 37 M
2016 30 M 39 M 35 M
2017 34 M 45 M 47 M
2018 47 M 46 M 53 M
2019 45 M 48 M 56 M
2020 31 M 33 M 33 M (Covid Fall)

If you read the Baltimore papers they will go into this in detail. The Post, probably due to Feinstein, avoids or obfuscates.

(04-23-2022 06:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Here's a better way to look at the genius of Maryland - football revenue for the last decade compared to NC State and Indiana

Year MD NC State Indiana

2011 14 M 22 M 24 M
2012 19 M 25 M 25 M
2013 16 M 32 M 24 M
2014 22 M 38 M 26 M
2015 30 M 40 M 37 M
2016 30 M 39 M 35 M
2017 34 M 45 M 47 M
2018 47 M 46 M 53 M
2019 45 M 48 M 56 M
2020 31 M 33 M 33 M (Covid Fall)

If you read the Baltimore papers they will go into this in detail. The Post, probably due to Feinstein, avoids or obfuscates.

What a shame.

Even before the timeline Statefan mentioned, Maryland was talking about leaving the ACC and going Indy. This might have been ~1960.

It was bound to happen, and I’d rather have South Carolina back. What the conference did to them was wrong: changing the rules they protested immediately after they left and then not letting them back in.

There were some that thought ten was the magic number after adding GaTech. Nine and ten would have been VaTech and SC. I wish that would have happened.

(04-24-2022 07:36 AM)esayem Wrote:  Even before the timeline Statefan mentioned, Maryland was talking about leaving the ACC and going Indy. This might have been ~1960.

It was bound to happen, and I’d rather have South Carolina back. What the conference did to them was wrong: changing the rules they protested immediately after they left and then not letting them back in.

There were some that thought ten was the magic number after adding GaTech. Nine and ten would have been VaTech and SC. I wish that would have happened.

As soon as the SEC began holding their CCG in football, 12 became the minimum.

(04-24-2022 08:20 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-24-2022 07:36 AM)esayem Wrote:  Even before the timeline Statefan mentioned, Maryland was talking about leaving the ACC and going Indy. This might have been ~1960.

It was bound to happen, and I’d rather have South Carolina back. What the conference did to them was wrong: changing the rules they protested immediately after they left and then not letting them back in.

There were some that thought ten was the magic number after adding GaTech. Nine and ten would have been VaTech and SC. I wish that would have happened.

As soon as the SEC began holding their CCG in football, 12 became the minimum.

But then the Big 12 made a stink because they only had ten, and even though the ACC request was denied to hold a championship game with 11, the Big 12's request to have a championship game with only 10 was approved.
Huh!

(04-24-2022 08:20 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-24-2022 07:36 AM)esayem Wrote:  Even before the timeline Statefan mentioned, Maryland was talking about leaving the ACC and going Indy. This might have been ~1960.

It was bound to happen, and I’d rather have South Carolina back. What the conference did to them was wrong: changing the rules they protested immediately after they left and then not letting them back in.

There were some that thought ten was the magic number after adding GaTech. Nine and ten would have been VaTech and SC. I wish that would have happened.

As soon as the SEC began holding their CCG in football, 12 became the minimum.

Right, but I’m talking late 70’s. If the ACC was at 10 already a decade later then FSU would have gone to the SEC with Arkansas. Then in another decade the ACC would have added Miami and either BC or Syracuse for the CCG.

(04-23-2022 05:33 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(04-23-2022 02:44 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(04-22-2022 11:23 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-21-2022 06:07 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  In terms of TV revenue, yes, FSU has probably the highest value. But that doesn’t mean that it is the most politically attractive school in the ACC. The TV Value and the influence can be two different things.

Let’s say FSU leaves the ACC and wants to creates its own conference. Who would join? Maybe USF and Jax state?

Then, let’s say UNC decides to leave the ACC and creates a new conference? Duke, NC State and UVa would follow. In turn VT and Wake have to follow. Most likely Clemson and/or GT would follow. That’s already seven or eight schools and from that point, the new conference will be in a position to invite good candidates.

As for the B12, Texas has the most TV value and the biggest influence and that’s why it was able to completely control the conference.

For the Northeast, PSU has the most TV value and the biggest influence and therefore should have created its own conference. It didn’t work out. Still, PSU attracts other Northeastern schools. If Pitt or Cuse were invited to the BIG, they would take it even if the money were same. I even suspect that PSU might have been a factor (not a primary one) for UMCP’s departure. UMCP used to play PSU annually.

As for the ACC, we have a weird political dynamics because the most influential schools don’t generate much football revenue. It’s not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don’t like a Texas style dominant school controlling a conference. My understanding is that many old Hokies didn’t like Louisville because UL was that dominant school in the Metro conference.

I agree with your distinction between highest value (FSU) and most power (UNC). Football generates the most revenue, and value comes from finances…FSU has frequently been the ACC’s best football program. While power is mainly about enabling structural advantages or social preferences…UNC can build and lead coalitions of schools, as well as influence conference decisions. It’s important that Jim Phillips balance decisions to keep those two happy.

With regards to the relationship between PSU and UMCP, I completely disagree. IMO, in the 1960s-80s Maryland somewhat looked down on the academics and tried to blunt the potential future power of PSU. Similar to how UVa opposed VT’s admission into the ACC for many decades, Maryland opposed overtures to PSU. Maryland had influence in the ACC, and used its power to push Penn State away. If anything, renewing the annual football losses to PSU was a negative in Maryland’s decision.

UMCP’s political power and the stance had been changed. It used to reject all the ACC expansion but agreed to accepting later schools inclduing VT, Miami, BC, Cuse and Pitt. To me UMCP had changed from an attracting school to a school being attracted.

PSU was probably not a major factor for UMCP’s decision to join the BIG but I had heard from UMCP fans something like “we lose rivalries with UVa and Duke but we will renew a rivaly with PSU and start a new one with OSU.”

It was Penn State who dropped MD from their schedule back in 94. MD had no "rivalry" with PSU because they could not beat them. You have to be able to win at least one game in 5 or 6 to make it a rivalry. When you are 1-45-1 you are just a happy meal. The only part PSU played in the move was the tip off to the B10 that PSU was talking with WF and VT about a move to the ACC.

Y'all need to remember, UMCP is a slow motion self-immolation that started in 1970.

1970 - Professional and Grad Schools to Baltimore.
1986 - Bobby Ross goes off at UNC thinking that UNC has been given a free time out to kick a winning FG - grabs an official. Former MD AD Bob James makes Bobby sit in the press box next game but crickets out of MD President in the wake of Len Bias overdose and the firing of Lefty.
1987 Bobby Ross goes straight to GT, MD pissed at ACC
1987 Bob James dies unexpectedly
1988 Gene Corrigan replaces James, MD now has no "in" in the ACC office
1990's Monstrous Mismanagement In The Academic and Fund Raising Side of the UMCP - Digs monster holes.
2002 - MD wins NCAA title but is not treated on a par with Duke and UNC, not even on par with NC State when it came to basketball.
2008-9 - The Fridge renege on retirement, MD loses James Franklin
2010 - Sweaty Gary has stop recruiting, appears drunk in dorm photo with girls, Debbie Yow pissed, Debbie leaves but Washington Post and Sweaty Gary take fight public.
2012 - MD System President decides to move UMCP to Big 10. UMCP Chancellor plays along with ACC as a sort of cut out man. Late 2012, MD makes move, tipping off UM and Wisky of PSU wandering eyes. Exposes WF and VT.
2022 - MD remains ****** up. Fund raising still lags because the monies get diverted. They continue to support too many programs and to cling to Title IX like it is a mother hogs last teat.

MD makes $35 million more today than it did in the ACC. In the ACC MD would have made 18 million more than 2012 making the net gain just $15 million. Eventually that spread might rise to $25-30 million once MD has paid back all it's loans and fronted money.

MD now spends even more money from student fees to be in the bottom 25% of the Big 10. They have negotiated a $40 million raise for a cost of $30 million. Maybe this is why no one has heard of MD's Business School?

This is the weirdest setup I have seen.

UMCP is billed as a state flagship but it doesn’t have a law school or a medical school. UMCP called itself “UMD” or “Maryland”. But there is a separate University of Maryland, which is older than UMCP and has a law school and a medical school.

(04-24-2022 01:44 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(04-23-2022 05:33 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(04-23-2022 02:44 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(04-22-2022 11:23 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-21-2022 06:07 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  In terms of TV revenue, yes, FSU has probably the highest value. But that doesn’t mean that it is the most politically attractive school in the ACC. The TV Value and the influence can be two different things.

Let’s say FSU leaves the ACC and wants to creates its own conference. Who would join? Maybe USF and Jax state?

Then, let’s say UNC decides to leave the ACC and creates a new conference? Duke, NC State and UVa would follow. In turn VT and Wake have to follow. Most likely Clemson and/or GT would follow. That’s already seven or eight schools and from that point, the new conference will be in a position to invite good candidates.

As for the B12, Texas has the most TV value and the biggest influence and that’s why it was able to completely control the conference.

For the Northeast, PSU has the most TV value and the biggest influence and therefore should have created its own conference. It didn’t work out. Still, PSU attracts other Northeastern schools. If Pitt or Cuse were invited to the BIG, they would take it even if the money were same. I even suspect that PSU might have been a factor (not a primary one) for UMCP’s departure. UMCP used to play PSU annually.

As for the ACC, we have a weird political dynamics because the most influential schools don’t generate much football revenue. It’s not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don’t like a Texas style dominant school controlling a conference. My understanding is that many old Hokies didn’t like Louisville because UL was that dominant school in the Metro conference.

I agree with your distinction between highest value (FSU) and most power (UNC). Football generates the most revenue, and value comes from finances…FSU has frequently been the ACC’s best football program. While power is mainly about enabling structural advantages or social preferences…UNC can build and lead coalitions of schools, as well as influence conference decisions. It’s important that Jim Phillips balance decisions to keep those two happy.

With regards to the relationship between PSU and UMCP, I completely disagree. IMO, in the 1960s-80s Maryland somewhat looked down on the academics and tried to blunt the potential future power of PSU. Similar to how UVa opposed VT’s admission into the ACC for many decades, Maryland opposed overtures to PSU. Maryland had influence in the ACC, and used its power to push Penn State away. If anything, renewing the annual football losses to PSU was a negative in Maryland’s decision.

UMCP’s political power and the stance had been changed. It used to reject all the ACC expansion but agreed to accepting later schools inclduing VT, Miami, BC, Cuse and Pitt. To me UMCP had changed from an attracting school to a school being attracted.

PSU was probably not a major factor for UMCP’s decision to join the BIG but I had heard from UMCP fans something like “we lose rivalries with UVa and Duke but we will renew a rivaly with PSU and start a new one with OSU.”

It was Penn State who dropped MD from their schedule back in 94. MD had no "rivalry" with PSU because they could not beat them. You have to be able to win at least one game in 5 or 6 to make it a rivalry. When you are 1-45-1 you are just a happy meal. The only part PSU played in the move was the tip off to the B10 that PSU was talking with WF and VT about a move to the ACC.

Y'all need to remember, UMCP is a slow motion self-immolation that started in 1970.

1970 - Professional and Grad Schools to Baltimore.
1986 - Bobby Ross goes off at UNC thinking that UNC has been given a free time out to kick a winning FG - grabs an official. Former MD AD Bob James makes Bobby sit in the press box next game but crickets out of MD President in the wake of Len Bias overdose and the firing of Lefty.
1987 Bobby Ross goes straight to GT, MD pissed at ACC
1987 Bob James dies unexpectedly
1988 Gene Corrigan replaces James, MD now has no "in" in the ACC office
1990's Monstrous Mismanagement In The Academic and Fund Raising Side of the UMCP - Digs monster holes.
2002 - MD wins NCAA title but is not treated on a par with Duke and UNC, not even on par with NC State when it came to basketball.
2008-9 - The Fridge renege on retirement, MD loses James Franklin
2010 - Sweaty Gary has stop recruiting, appears drunk in dorm photo with girls, Debbie Yow pissed, Debbie leaves but Washington Post and Sweaty Gary take fight public.
2012 - MD System President decides to move UMCP to Big 10. UMCP Chancellor plays along with ACC as a sort of cut out man. Late 2012, MD makes move, tipping off UM and Wisky of PSU wandering eyes. Exposes WF and VT.
2022 - MD remains ****** up. Fund raising still lags because the monies get diverted. They continue to support too many programs and to cling to Title IX like it is a mother hogs last teat.

MD makes $35 million more today than it did in the ACC. In the ACC MD would have made 18 million more than 2012 making the net gain just $15 million. Eventually that spread might rise to $25-30 million once MD has paid back all it's loans and fronted money.

MD now spends even more money from student fees to be in the bottom 25% of the Big 10. They have negotiated a $40 million raise for a cost of $30 million. Maybe this is why no one has heard of MD's Business School?

This is the weirdest setup I have seen.

UMCP is billed as a state flagship but it doesn’t have a law school or a medical school. UMCP called itself “UMD” or “Maryland”. But there is a separate University of Maryland, which is older than UMCP and has a law school and a medical school.

The original U of MD is a surgical college in Baltimore. In 1970 politics moved several of UMCP's graduate programs to Baltimore in an effort to spread economic development. UMCP was always the Morell Land Grant, orginially called Maryland A&M, the Maryland State College, then UM.

"Flagship" means nothing like the term "Beauty Queen" or "Bell of the Ball". That's a term that people outside higher education use when they are communicating to rubes.

UNC tried to steal the NC land grant in the 1870's. But that's not uncommon.

UNC actually received the land grant money for nearly two decades without doing anything other than padding their accounts until it became a political issue in the 1880's.

It just so happened that a man in Raleigh had a reason to hate things attached to UNC because of something between Stanhope Pullen and John Motley Morehead's son over a woman. (Pullen as in Pullen Park, Morehead as in Morehead Scholars). Pullen gave the land for NC State and in 1887 the Legislature made it happen and transferred to Land Grant from UNC to NC A&M (NC State has not always been the loser in battles with UNC).

This is why UNC is a "girls school" now. Having lost the Land Grant, they lost their Engineering School in 1931 when UNC, Woman's Collage (UNC-G), and NC State College were merged at the administrative level into the UNC System.

The State of NC has no official "Flagship". You can't be a Flagship without an Engineering and Ag School. But try to explain this to media folks. They are so stupid and their depth research so shallow that the often do not know their ass from hole in the ground.

If you want fun reading, read about VPI&SU fighting with Virginia State over the name "State".

(04-24-2022 02:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  UNC tried to steal the NC land grant in the 1870's. But that's not uncommon.

UNC actually received the land grant money for nearly two decades without doing anything other than padding their accounts until it became a political issue in the 1880's.

It just so happened that a man in Raleigh had a reason to hate things attached to UNC because of something between Stanhope Pullen and John Motley Morehead's son over a woman. (Pullen as in Pullen Park, Morehead as in Morehead Scholars). Pullen gave the land for NC State and in 1887 the Legislature made it happen and transferred to Land Grant from UNC to NC A&M (NC State has not always been the loser in battles with UNC).

This is why UNC is a "girls school" now. Having lost the Land Grant, they lost their Engineering School in 1931 when UNC, Woman's Collage (UNC-G), and NC State College were merged at the administrative level into the UNC System.

The State of NC has no official "Flagship". You can't be a Flagship without an Engineering and Ag School. But try to explain this to media folks. They are so stupid and their depth research so shallow that the often do not know their ass from hole in the ground.

If you want fun reading, read about VPI&SU fighting with Virginia State over the name "State".

When was it that NC State stopped using PINK & BROWN as their school colors?

(04-24-2022 02:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  UNC tried to steal the NC land grant in the 1870's. But that's not uncommon.

UNC actually received the land grant money for nearly two decades without doing anything other than padding their accounts until it became a political issue in the 1880's.

It just so happened that a man in Raleigh had a reason to hate things attached to UNC because of something between Stanhope Pullen and John Motley Morehead's son over a woman. (Pullen as in Pullen Park, Morehead as in Morehead Scholars). Pullen gave the land for NC State and in 1887 the Legislature made it happen and transferred to Land Grant from UNC to NC A&M (NC State has not always been the loser in battles with UNC).

This is why UNC is a "girls school" now. Having lost the Land Grant, they lost their Engineering School in 1931 when UNC, Woman's Collage (UNC-G), and NC State College were merged at the administrative level into the UNC System.

The State of NC has no official "Flagship". You can't be a Flagship without an Engineering and Ag School. But try to explain this to media folks. They are so stupid and their depth research so shallow that the often do not know their ass from hole in the ground.

If you want fun reading, read about VPI&SU fighting with Virginia State over the name "State".

I guess adding &SU to the VPI was important. It's made for an extremely long institutional name. Most people that refer to VT either use VT or VPI; I don't see VPI&SU very often.

It's interesting that Virginia has a Virginia State University and a Virginia Commonwealth University. You'd think it would have to be one or the other.

(04-24-2022 06:23 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(04-24-2022 02:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  UNC tried to steal the NC land grant in the 1870's. But that's not uncommon.

UNC actually received the land grant money for nearly two decades without doing anything other than padding their accounts until it became a political issue in the 1880's.

It just so happened that a man in Raleigh had a reason to hate things attached to UNC because of something between Stanhope Pullen and John Motley Morehead's son over a woman. (Pullen as in Pullen Park, Morehead as in Morehead Scholars). Pullen gave the land for NC State and in 1887 the Legislature made it happen and transferred to Land Grant from UNC to NC A&M (NC State has not always been the loser in battles with UNC).

This is why UNC is a "girls school" now. Having lost the Land Grant, they lost their Engineering School in 1931 when UNC, Woman's Collage (UNC-G), and NC State College were merged at the administrative level into the UNC System.

The State of NC has no official "Flagship". You can't be a Flagship without an Engineering and Ag School. But try to explain this to media folks. They are so stupid and their depth research so shallow that the often do not know their ass from hole in the ground.

If you want fun reading, read about VPI&SU fighting with Virginia State over the name "State".

When was it that NC State stopped using PINK & BROWN as their school colors?

State's official website says Pink and Blue from 92-95, then someone decided Brown would be better creating a consternation and leading to campus vote and Red and White was chosen in 1895. Pink and Brown are likely the mix and match because there is a blub where the University says it's not going to keep paying to change colors.

The exact colors used on the field by UNC are really difficult to pin down prior to the 20's. Everything at an official level has been retconned by the University to support all the logo, merchandising, and trademarks. But I can remember displays in old Fetzer Gym that reference Green, Brown, and Pink in addition to Blue. The colors used in commencement were more official that athletic colors. I would also think that it would not take much to turn red into pink back then.

My experience is that many, many things from the 90's to the early 30's that were racially touchy or otherwise controversial were heavily sanitized under the direction of Frank Porter Graham. He was successful to the point that most at UNC-Ch don't even know their late 19th Century History.

This led to people being surprised about William Kenan.

The Rathskeller used to have real football programs from the 30's to the 50's and other articles posted. So did Suttons Drug store. Now it seems as if UNC was always coed and integrated.

It just dawned on me that State's official color scheme and that of the ball clubs were not the same thing so I am going back to the 20's on the overall color change.

It is fun listening to old guys talk about sh!t from 50 to 130 years ago. BTW, Cuse was Pea Green and Pink before going all Orange. We feel your pain Wolf Pack.

https://www.syracuse.edu/about/history/traditions/

(04-25-2022 09:28 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  It is fun listening to old guys talk about sh!t from 50 to 130 years ago. BTW, Cuse was Pea Green and Pink before going all Orange. We feel your pain Wolf Pack.

https://www.syracuse.edu/about/history/traditions/

Better Wolf Pack rather than Wolp Pack

(04-25-2022 09:28 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  It is fun listening to old guys talk about sh!t from 50 to 130 years ago. BTW, Cuse was Pea Green and Pink before going all Orange. We feel your pain Wolf Pack.

https://www.syracuse.edu/about/history/traditions/

In the 19th century, pink was considered a masculine color while blue was considered feminine. It wasn’t until the mid to late 1920s that switched, as department stores started selling boys clothes in blue and girl’s in pink. In the 19th century, pink was just seen as another shade of red. Men frequently wore pink clothing items.

(04-25-2022 01:58 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-25-2022 09:28 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  It is fun listening to old guys talk about sh!t from 50 to 130 years ago. BTW, Cuse was Pea Green and Pink before going all Orange. We feel your pain Wolf Pack.

https://www.syracuse.edu/about/history/traditions/

In the 19th century, pink was considered a masculine color while blue was considered feminine. It wasn’t until the mid to late 1920s that switched, as department stores started selling boys clothes in blue and girl’s in pink. In the 19th century, pink was just seen as another shade of red. Men frequently wore pink clothing items.

https://twitter.com/MLS/status/1518308974872911881

EN VOGUE