(04-17-2023 10:49 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  ... The best HS talent, and the highest interest levels, are still overwhelmingly concentrated around the Interstate 95 Corridor from Northern Virginia up into New England. ...

Yes, it's my impression that the two MAC schools in Ohio that have started women's Lax in the past decade are thinking at least in part on getting in the frame for students in that area ... when the top schools have taken the top recruits, then in the areas with a lot of talent and a lot of interest there's their team-mates who want to keep on playing in college.

(04-17-2023 07:31 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-16-2023 04:32 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  Heard from a high school tennis coach that lacrosse is really decimating high school tennis teams. I guess it is a similar skill set with the benefit of a team sport.

Lacrosse is a great sport for athletic kids of average height. The #1 HS recruit last year is probably 5' 10" and quick but not extremely fast. But he is extremely skilled.

Well football has gotten to be for the freakishly big or freakishly fast. Basketball for the freakishly tall or freakishly fast. Baseball for the kids who started at 5 years old and played travel ball. That could lead to room for kids to migrate to other sports.

(04-17-2023 07:48 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-17-2023 10:49 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  ... The best HS talent, and the highest interest levels, are still overwhelmingly concentrated around the Interstate 95 Corridor from Northern Virginia up into New England. ...

Yes, it's my impression that the two MAC schools in Ohio that have started women's Lax in the past decade are thinking at least in part on getting in the frame for students in that area ... when the top schools have taken the top recruits, then in the areas with a lot of talent and a lot of interest there's their team-mates who want to keep on playing in college.

2 MLAX programs probably would've resulted in a MAC/HORIZON partnership similar to their womens prorgams and an AQ for the tourney. was hoping would bowling green re-started their program instead of baseball a couple of years ago, but a donation never hurts!!

(04-17-2023 09:35 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  

(04-17-2023 07:48 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-17-2023 10:49 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  ... The best HS talent, and the highest interest levels, are still overwhelmingly concentrated around the Interstate 95 Corridor from Northern Virginia up into New England. ...

Yes, it's my impression that the two MAC schools in Ohio that have started women's Lax in the past decade are thinking at least in part on getting in the frame for students in that area ... when the top schools have taken the top recruits, then in the areas with a lot of talent and a lot of interest there's their team-mates who want to keep on playing in college.

2 MLAX programs probably would've resulted in a MAC/HORIZON partnership similar to their womens prorgams and an AQ for the tourney. was hoping would bowling green re-started their program instead of baseball a couple of years ago, but a donation never hurts!!

I reckon Kent State would start a Men's Lax program, if someone endowed enough scholarships to cover the scholarship costs and Title IX offset. Otherwise it seems unlikely.

In my opinion, baseball is so intertwined with American culture so neither lacrosse or soccer will ever considered as a peer sport with basketball, baseball and football.

(04-17-2023 11:18 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  In my opinion, baseball is so intertwined with American culture so neither lacrosse or soccer will ever considered as a peer sport with basketball, baseball and football.

These things do ebb and flow. At one time, the most American of sports was horse racing. Before WWII, track was a much bigger deal in America than it is today.

Statista's 2019 figures on popularity of sports by age (not broken down by pro/college), for the oldest, middle, and youngest cohorts yields:

65+: FB 31%, Baseball 20%, BB 8%, Hockey 5%, Soccer 3%
45-55: FB 46%, Baseball 13%, BB 8%, Hockey 4%, Soccer 2%
18-29: FB 24%, BB 23%, Baseball 12%, Soccer 10%, Hockey 7%

Among the youngest Americans, soccer has already basically caught up with baseball. In another decade, soccer will be more popular among 18-29 year olds than baseball. It can't be helped. FIFA 23 is just a more popular video game than The Show.

But where in American football, many (though not all) football fans have a pro team and a college team, the best American soccer can realistically hope for is many American soccer fans to have a big league team and also an MLS team.

I do wonder if soccer's structure doesn't make it endearing. That people get burned out or up over it all in a way that doesn't happen in other sports. The travel league component, imo, is a scam at worst or just a mess at best. I do remember travel teams being something you aged into, but then recreational leagues being something still strong "for the rest of us." Now, at least around my parts, rec leagues are just junk after a certain but still young age and the focus (and money) is in the travel teams, and they start very young. Even getting multiple teams at the same age level in the same club/organization. I can see people falling out of love with it. It might be one of those games where there is just too much structure.

That being said, there are schools and regions where soccer has a presence on the college campus. Or, at least, used to. D3 up in PA, MD, and NJ could pull some decent crowds. If anyone has seen a game at Messiah College/University, you'll witness it. Then again, I don't know what the feel is like at these schools with football (Messiah, for example, doesn't have it).

(04-19-2023 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I do wonder if soccer's structure doesn't make it endearing. That people get burned out or up over it all in a way that doesn't happen in other sports. ...

This gets into the issue of how important the participation of kids at a high level is in generating the growing popularity of the sport (as documented above), versus the importance of other factors, like the popularity of the FIFA video game.

As far as the question the US soccer establishment faces in how to grow more US talent into high level players, the questions of the burden of traveling soccer teams versus rec teams may come up. My own late son who was a soccer player was growing up in Australia at that stage in his development, where there was a three tier system of rec leagues, "association" youth leagues (he played in the Northern NSW association youth leagues) and then the development teams for the local clubs (he played for the Broadmeadow Magic, which at one time was Broadmeadow Macedonia, even though he was far from qualifying as Macedonian). That club Under17s development layer for emerging soccer player seems like something that is absent in the US system.

But for the popularity of soccer, I don't know that this issue is a major driver.

(04-19-2023 08:19 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-19-2023 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I do wonder if soccer's structure doesn't make it endearing. That people get burned out or up over it all in a way that doesn't happen in other sports. ...

This gets into the issue of how important the participation of kids at a high level is in generating the growing popularity of the sport (as documented above), versus the importance of other factors, like the popularity of the FIFA video game.

As far as the question the US soccer establishment faces in how to grow more US talent into high level players, the questions of the burden of traveling soccer teams versus rec teams may come up. My own late son who was a soccer player was growing up in Australia at that stage in his development, where there was a three tier system of rec leagues, "association" youth leagues (he played in the Northern NSW association youth leagues) and then the development teams for the local clubs (he played for the Broadmeadow Magic, which at one time was Broadmeadow Macedonia, even though he was far from qualifying as Macedonian). That club Under17s development layer for emerging soccer player seems like something that is absent in the US system.

But for the popularity of soccer, I don't know that this issue is a major driver.

This is a good point.

I think a lot of people have the belief that "participation = spectator interest", but I don't know if that's really the case.

For instance, I've seen the argument that the Southern markets will watch more football long-term because the participation rates are still high there. Yet, I can tell you that you won't find more rabid football fans - both NFL and college combined - than about an hour north of me when you cross into the State of Wisconsin. Wisconsin hasn't had particularly high football participation rates for many years compared to other states and they don't produce a lot of top level talent, but *watching* football is religion. The stench of Packer fandom with a side of Badger love is oppressive as soon as you cross the state line. There are lots of places that *watch* a ton of football yet the participation rates are weak (and I'm including both pro and college football viewership here).

To your point, my son seems to be an encapsulation of someone that didn't play anything more than rec league soccer when he was younger, but is really into the FIFA video game and now follows the Premier League and Champions League closely. Heck, even speaking for myself, I can barely skate much less play ice hockey, yet my hockey fandom came from playing EA Sports NHL all of the time back in the '90s.

(04-19-2023 09:06 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-19-2023 08:19 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-19-2023 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I do wonder if soccer's structure doesn't make it endearing. That people get burned out or up over it all in a way that doesn't happen in other sports. ...

This gets into the issue of how important the participation of kids at a high level is in generating the growing popularity of the sport (as documented above), versus the importance of other factors, like the popularity of the FIFA video game.

As far as the question the US soccer establishment faces in how to grow more US talent into high level players, the questions of the burden of traveling soccer teams versus rec teams may come up. My own late son who was a soccer player was growing up in Australia at that stage in his development, where there was a three tier system of rec leagues, "association" youth leagues (he played in the Northern NSW association youth leagues) and then the development teams for the local clubs (he played for the Broadmeadow Magic, which at one time was Broadmeadow Macedonia, even though he was far from qualifying as Macedonian). That club Under17s development layer for emerging soccer player seems like something that is absent in the US system.

But for the popularity of soccer, I don't know that this issue is a major driver.

This is a good point.

I think a lot of people have the belief that "participation = spectator interest", but I don't know if that's really the case.

For instance, I've seen the argument that the Southern markets will watch more football long-term because the participation rates are still high there. Yet, I can tell you that you won't find more rabid football fans - both NFL and college combined - than about an hour north of me when you cross into the State of Wisconsin. Wisconsin hasn't had particularly high football participation rates for many years compared to other states and they don't produce a lot of top level talent, but *watching* football is religion. The stench of Packer fandom with a side of Badger love is oppressive as soon as you cross the state line. There are lots of places that *watch* a ton of football yet the participation rates are weak (and I'm including both pro and college football viewership here).

To your point, my son seems to be an encapsulation of someone that didn't play anything more than rec league soccer when he was younger, but is really into the FIFA video game and now follows the Premier League and Champions League closely. Heck, even speaking for myself, I can barely skate much less play ice hockey, yet my hockey fandom came from playing EA Sports NHL all of the time back in the '90s.

Both of my kids played rec league and FIFA but aren't really into MLS or EPL. More than I am, but not especially.

Of course both liked Call of Duty and Madden more than FIFA.

(04-19-2023 09:06 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  ... To your point, my son seems to be an encapsulation of someone that didn't play anything more than rec league soccer when he was younger, but is really into the FIFA video game and now follows the Premier League and Champions League closely. ...

For soccer in particular, I do think the participation has been a driver for its growth in popularity in the last thirty years. Ever since the collapse of the big Midwestern factory teams in the Great Depression, it was very much a niche sport, and the big youth participation rates led to a pool of potential viewers who basically know what is going on if they come across a game on TV.

But my guess -- and it's only a guess -- would be that other factors would be more important in terms of the total numbers of people who stop and watch that game than the number of those who step up into playing at a higher level and whether they got burned out in that process.

speaking of college lacrosse vs soccer... article about richmond and their choice to add MLAX 10 YEARS ago

https://richmond.com/sports/college/scho...3d99a.html

(04-16-2023 08:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-16-2023 10:11 AM)sctvman Wrote:  Talking about men’s soccer, College of Charleston shares their field with the Battery USL team. CofC was there first. CofC never gets more than 200-300 fans a game while the Battery fill the stadium with fans.

Charleston is a fast growing market but college baseball has lost some market share over the last 5 years or so. Outside of the big schools, the college baseball fan tends to be older and upper middle class. Not a lot of folks have money to travel and go to games on a midweek. Charleston just renovated their field this season to keep up, added turf and all that and still gets the same few hundred fans a game.

Lacrosse though seems to be growing in popularity each and every year. Most of the high schools with money in our area have boys and girls teams. Ten years ago that was not the case at all.

I went to a mid-week Kennesaw State-Georgia game at KSU last year. Not only was every seat filled, the standing area around the field was 1 or 2 people deep. Mostly KSU fans but substantial number of UGA fans. Seats about 1200.

College of Charleston hosted Texas in a mid-week game last year. They had about 1,500 in attendance, sold out and probably close to half of the stadium were Texas fans.

But in our own town College of Charleston is probably #4 in baseball behind South Carolina, Clemson and The Citadel. Charleston is a big college baseball town. There’s a local ball field, Shipyard Park that hosts a couple college tourneys each season with out of town D1 teams.

Every year when South Carolina plays at The Citadel 70% of the crowd roots for the Gamecocks. This year the game was a sellout. Now since they have a great, resurgent season a lot more folks are back on the bandwagon.

(04-17-2023 08:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well football has gotten to be for the freakishly big or freakishly fast. Basketball for the freakishly tall or freakishly fast. Baseball for the kids who started at 5 years old and played travel ball. That could lead to room for kids to migrate to other sports.

I wish I could find the article now, but it was about some kid who was at best fourth on the RB list and an average baseball players in HS that is a top scorer in NCAA lax. Lax took his combination of decent feet and eye-hand and made him exceptional.

(04-15-2023 08:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-15-2023 08:22 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-15-2023 07:33 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  In all honesty, that we have to even question this for soccer, it's disappointing for that sport. I feel like you could have asked this same question 20-25 years ago, and the answer should have been a resounding "soccer." We're still waiting for that one. Meanwhile, baseball, ice hockey, volleyball, and even women's softball...all seemingly picking up more interest at schools. Women's gymnastics, too. That's not good for soccer.

Spot-on assessment, C-Bish. I'm surprised college soccer is not as popular as it is.

As to T-Mark's question ... I simply don't know much about lacrosse. It does seem like a fascinating sport but I would assume soccer would have the edge for future popularity.

I could foresee women's volleyball being a big deal in the next 10 to 15 years. The fast rise of women's basketball proves that women's college team sports can be popular on a national level. Maybe one or two of women's softball, soccer, field hockey, hockey and lacrosse can gains some traction. But volleyball ... I could see it.

I feel like volleyball is already getting there in Big Ten country. It’s comparable or better than women’s basketball in terms of attendance on a lot of campuses and BTN has increased its TV coverage of the sport substantially because they saw the ratings being quite good. (I believe volleyball was actually the most watched women’s sport on BTN until this year. The Caitlin Clark effect playing at Iowa changed that this season.)

For soccer, I’m wondering if college women’s soccer may have a comparative advantage to the men’s side since almost all of the top women’s players that eventually play for the US national team (and even other national teams) play college soccer in a way that doesn’t occur for men’s players. There’s a “you might be watching a future star” element in women’s college soccer in the same way that there is for football and basketball. If colleges can actually capitalize on that remains to be seen.

Volleyball took off when one side didn't have to win the serve in order to score a point. Now the pace is quick and much better to watch.

I must confess that I never saw an American interest in Soccer other than as an Olympic sport. The why is easy. If baseball and football, and to a much lesser extent basketball suffer with the younger generations because of the duration of the games and particularly baseball where the play is much slower and depending upon pitching the action is too, why on earth would Americans love Soccer? Especially young Americans. Too long, too much running around with nothing happening, and usually only a few to a handful of goals scored.

To love soccer, like football, you have to grow up playing it. Play it and you understand it. Understand it and you appreciate it. Same goes for baseball and any team sport. I love hockey. I played it as kid without skates on boots and on ice created by the parents in the neighborhood with garden hoses and snow shovels to level it. Then the dads taught us some things about the game.

I think I could appreciate curling if I had enough beer!

But my point is that not that many Americans really play soccer, even though it has gained popularity for females in the South, and seemingly most other places too. Now, couple failure to play, to failure to understand, to futility in scoring, to length of the contests, to the coming demographic with attention span deficits and I don't see an upside for soccer at all.

(04-23-2023 09:58 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(04-17-2023 08:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well football has gotten to be for the freakishly big or freakishly fast. Basketball for the freakishly tall or freakishly fast. Baseball for the kids who started at 5 years old and played travel ball. That could lead to room for kids to migrate to other sports.

I wish I could find the article now, but it was about some kid who was at best fourth on the RB list and an average baseball players in HS that is a top scorer in NCAA lax. Lax took his combination of decent feet and eye-hand and made him exceptional.

The 2021 National Champion (undefeated) Ferris State quarterback, Jared Bernhardt, was the D1 National Lacrosse Player of the Year for Maryland the previous semester. He was a 4-year starter at Maryland, winning the 2017 National Championship as a Freshman.

(04-23-2023 06:12 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(04-23-2023 09:58 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(04-17-2023 08:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well football has gotten to be for the freakishly big or freakishly fast. Basketball for the freakishly tall or freakishly fast. Baseball for the kids who started at 5 years old and played travel ball. That could lead to room for kids to migrate to other sports.

I wish I could find the article now, but it was about some kid who was at best fourth on the RB list and an average baseball players in HS that is a top scorer in NCAA lax. Lax took his combination of decent feet and eye-hand and made him exceptional.

The 2021 National Champion (undefeated) Ferris State quarterback, Jared Bernhardt, was the D1 National Lacrosse Player of the Year for Maryland the previous semester. He was a 4-year starter at Maryland, winning the 2017 National Championship as a Freshman.

would love to see the article about the "baseball player that went on to lead the NCAA LACROSSE in scoring".

Jared Bernhardt is also on the atlanta falcons as a wr. theres quite a few lacrosse/football crossovers this year as both sports require extreme athleticism speed and physicality. Navy's QB and marylands Safety play both fb and lax.

(04-23-2023 12:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  But my point is that not that many Americans really play soccer, even though it has gained popularity for females in the South, and seemingly most other places too. Now, couple failure to play, to failure to understand, to futility in scoring, to length of the contests, to the coming demographic with attention span deficits and I don't see an upside for soccer at all.

Well, that's just not true. According to the National Federation of High School Athletic Associations, more girls play high school soccer than basketball OR softball, and the boys participation numbers are close to high school baseball.

As a country, we haven't done a very good job creating something closer to a mass participation system for *elite* soccer development, but man do a lot of teenagers PLAY the sport.

https://swimswam.com/nfhs-releases-2021-...on-survey/

(04-23-2023 07:54 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  

(04-23-2023 12:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  But my point is that not that many Americans really play soccer, even though it has gained popularity for females in the South, and seemingly most other places too. Now, couple failure to play, to failure to understand, to futility in scoring, to length of the contests, to the coming demographic with attention span deficits and I don't see an upside for soccer at all.

Well, that's just not true. According to the National Federation of High School Athletic Associations, more girls play high school soccer than basketball OR softball, and the boys participation numbers are close to high school baseball.

As a country, we haven't done a very good job creating something closer to a mass participation system for *elite* soccer development, but man do a lot of teenagers PLAY the sport.

https://swimswam.com/nfhs-releases-2021-...on-survey/

You have to have an audience to develop elite soccer. No bucks, no Buck Rogers! Bucks come from those willing to pay to watch. In the South boys play football, some play soccer, but girls play. Beyond High School you don't have an audience and the audience in high school would be parents mostly. Auburn has women's soccer and from time to time they are pretty good for SEC level play. No audience even in the good years. Meanwhile at Jane B. Moore Field the tickets are sold out and the stands packed on good weather nights with only some empty seats when it's too cold or hot. Women's softball sells.

And Matt if your audience is women that played in high school, and they are busy with college, and then with family or career, where's your audience. And if you count the total number of them as compared to women who don't play how many do you have?

(04-23-2023 08:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  You have to have an audience to develop elite soccer. No bucks, no Buck Rogers! Bucks come from those willing to pay to watch. In the South boys play football, some play soccer, but girls play. Beyond High School you don't have an audience and the audience in high school would be parents mostly. Auburn has women's soccer and from time to time they are pretty good for SEC level play. No audience even in the good years. Meanwhile at Jane B. Moore Field the tickets are sold out and the stands packed on good weather nights with only some empty seats when it's too cold or hot. Women's softball sells.

Real Madrid doesn't run their academy system because lots of people buy tickets to watch their U16 team lol. They run it because they want to find good players for the main club. Nobody is shelling out big bucks for tickets to watch youth teams nearly anywhere in the world...hell, even here. Lets not pretend high school football or high school anything is a particularly profitable enterprise.

What I mean what I say "we haven't developed as great mass participation elite system for soccer" is that our best soccer talent pipelines here are heavily concentrated in heavily expensive travel team systems. We price most of the poor and even middle class kids out of getting the homegrown talent development systems they need to be D1 or international caliber. Our talent pipelines for football and basketball are more egalitarian.