(06-01-2023 11:41 AM)appst89 Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:18 AM)appst89 Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 10:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 10:05 AM)appst89 Wrote:  If the same standards applied to every former president, this wouldn't even be a story.

If trump had returned ALL the documents the moment they were found/made known...like Biden and Pence...this wouldn't even be a story.

He. Didn't.

And we don't even know really whether there was any intent whatsoever by Biden and Pence to knowingly take these documents. That doesn't appear to be the case with trump.

If the same standards applied to every former president, this wouldn't even be a story.

Biden and Pence were not president at the time.

Okay...so back to Obama...and Bush...and Clinton...and... NONE of them did anything even remotely comparable to trump.

Trying to make this false equivalency is just lazy.

How do you know? You are making a statement of absolute fact and there is no way can know that. You don't know what they did or didn't do because they weren't subjected to the same level of scrutiny.

Trying to treat it differently is just dishonest. But that's to be expected from you.

Scrutiny smutiny, trump did this ALL to himself.

And dude, there is nothing shown anywhere to indicate that any past president did anything even remotely to the level of what trump did, that's what I'm saying. So I'm speaking to what we know. So until you have something suggesting they did something otherwise, it's also dishonest to act like every other past president did what trump did like UofM...and likely you...are trying to assert.

(06-01-2023 11:57 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:41 AM)appst89 Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:18 AM)appst89 Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 10:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  If trump had returned ALL the documents the moment they were found/made known...like Biden and Pence...this wouldn't even be a story.

He. Didn't.

And we don't even know really whether there was any intent whatsoever by Biden and Pence to knowingly take these documents. That doesn't appear to be the case with trump.

If the same standards applied to every former president, this wouldn't even be a story.

Biden and Pence were not president at the time.

Okay...so back to Obama...and Bush...and Clinton...and... NONE of them did anything even remotely comparable to trump.

Trying to make this false equivalency is just lazy.

How do you know? You are making a statement of absolute fact and there is no way can know that. You don't know what they did or didn't do because they weren't subjected to the same level of scrutiny.

Trying to treat it differently is just dishonest. But that's to be expected from you.

Scrutiny smutiny, trump did this ALL to himself.

And dude, there is nothing shown anywhere to indicate that any past president did anything even remotely to the level of what trump did, that's what I'm saying. So I'm speaking to what we know. So until you have something suggesting they did something otherwise, it's also dishonest to act like every other past president did what trump did like UofM...and likely you...are trying to assert.

You made the claim. Back it up.

There's nothing shown because they were never held to the same standard. You're speaking to pure speculation. You're spinning a yarn and claiming it as fact. That's what is dishonest.

(06-01-2023 11:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 11:34 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  When I worked with classified on a daily basis, intent didn't matter at the guardhouse door, just possession.

Of the names tossed about here only one was Chief Executive with declassification power when the documents were taken. That matters.

But trump took and held the documents AFTER he had that power. And there's not evidence of any actual declassification of any of them to my knowledge. If there was, trump would likely have shown it a long time ago.

After? After he had that power (no longer POTUS) how did he have access to classified documents? Any docs he saw after he was POTUS (retains clearance but not declassification power) would've been in someone else's SCIF and they'd have been responsible for not letting the docs escape.

So, after he was POTUS, when and which SCIF.

Put simpler: You can't take the ice cube trays* from the freezer of the locked house you just sold and turned the keys over to the new resident. And as long as you have the keys and it's your house, they're your ice cube trays.


*tip of cap to Tom Arnold in True Lies

(06-01-2023 11:57 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  .. there is nothing shown anywhere to indicate that any past president did anything even remotely to the level of what trump did, ...

Past President? No.

Past Veep that took classified and alphabetized it in his garage? Classified, Corvette, ... yeah, we have evidence of that.

And Veeps can not declassify.

(06-01-2023 09:29 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 09:26 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 08:38 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 08:34 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  All presidents take them. They are allowed to.

Classified information must stay in a SCIF.

Trump, Biden, Obama, Hillary, W., I don't care.

For people who are NOT president. Presidents and ex-presidents can take whatever they want for their records. If the government believe it needs to be in a scif, they are to furnish a scif.

Thats the way its always worked, right up until Trump, when they decided to start raiding.

They do. At a Presidential records library. Until then, the classified records stay in an existing SCIF. Obama's classified records stayed in DC until his library was completed in Chicago.

bwahahahahahahahahahaha

no they didnt.

(06-01-2023 12:56 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  bwahahahahahahahahahaha

no they didnt.

Proof?

If so, as I said before, then whoever put it outside of a SCIF should be held accountable at the same standard as me or you.

(06-01-2023 01:04 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 12:56 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  bwahahahahahahahahahaha

no they didnt.

Proof?

If so, as I said before, then whoever put it outside of a SCIF should be held accountable at the same standard as me or you.

Yep.. As someone who's clearance is now retroactive, when I had it I felt like I was on pins and needles anytime I was handling documents.. Seems that those in power don't have that fear...

Whether Trump did it right or not, isn't the question.. The question is why and how damaging is it.. Same with Biden..

(06-01-2023 10:05 AM)appst89 Wrote:  If the same standards applied to every former president, this wouldn't even be a story.

This pretty much sums it up. It really is that simple.

(06-01-2023 09:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And we've covered this many times before. The issue isn't that trump just took them...either intentionally or not. The issue is the likely obstruction and likely deceit that has taken place when it was made known that he took stuff he was not entitled too. These are most likely criminal acts that can and should be prosecuted.

At this point, the stuff found with Biden...and with Pence...has not been shown to have been intentionally taken and intentionally hidden from the archives. So at best, they get a slap on the wrist. Of course that is subject to change if more evidence comes to light, but initially, there situations aren't even remotely similar to trump.

If trump actually cooperated from the jump and just returned EVERYTHING, nothing would have come from it, nor should it have, IMO.

So we can assume the others who have done this will be pursued also, right?

(06-01-2023 01:20 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 09:19 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Two out of three Americans now believe Trump committed criminal acts. Pretty amazing when the likely Republican nominee is viewed as a criminal by 2/3s of the population. I guess that hardcore 33% that are pro Trump no matter what, no matter what he says no matter what he does, no matter how despicable of a person he continues to be, make up the rest.

https://navigatorresearch.org/two-in-thr...d-a-crime/

Is there any load you won’t swallow?

You cannot say things like that. It's June.

(06-01-2023 09:19 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Two out of three Americans now believe Trump committed criminal acts.

Two out of three Americans believe a lot of things of questionable veracity.

(06-01-2023 09:19 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Two out of three Americans now believe Trump committed criminal acts.

Total BS

More liberal garbage.

Liberals think the more times they lie about the same subject, somehow the lie will suddenly become the truth.

So Donald Trump steals classified information on an attack against Iran for himself, and not long after, Jared Kushner receives $2 Billion from Saudi Arabia. Seems pretty fishy to me

(06-01-2023 02:44 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  So Donald Trump steals classified information on an attack against Iran for himself, and not long after, Jared Kushner receives $2 Billion from Saudi Arabia. Seems pretty fishy to me

Literally have the current head of the FBI about to be held in Contempt of Congress for trying to cover up a Democrat president's blatant corruption---and you are concerned because Kushner----who actually has a real business as private equity fund---got money from the Saudi's. Given that Trumps treatment of the Saudis was the same as his predecessor---Im not sure what the implication would be here. The fact is, any real reading of the actual financials shows that Trump's stint as president cost him money---unlike Biden---who's life in politics has been so lucrative that its almost impossible to square his current wealth with his modest public service earnings.

(06-01-2023 02:44 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  So Donald Trump steals classified information on an attack against Iran for himself, and not long after, Jared Kushner receives $2 Billion from Saudi Arabia. Seems pretty fishy to me

You really want to go there? Seriously? You, a biden supporting lib, want to go THERE?

(06-01-2023 11:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Okay...so back to Obama...and Bush...and Clinton...and... NONE of them did anything even remotely comparable to trump.

Trying to make this false equivalency is just lazy.

(06-01-2023 01:23 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 09:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And we've covered this many times before. The issue isn't that trump just took them...either intentionally or not. The issue is the likely obstruction and likely deceit that has taken place when it was made known that he took stuff he was not entitled too. These are most likely criminal acts that can and should be prosecuted.

At this point, the stuff found with Biden...and with Pence...has not been shown to have been intentionally taken and intentionally hidden from the archives. So at best, they get a slap on the wrist. Of course that is subject to change if more evidence comes to light, but initially, there situations aren't even remotely similar to trump.

If trump actually cooperated from the jump and just returned EVERYTHING, nothing would have come from it, nor should it have, IMO.

So we can assume the others who have done this will be pursued also, right?

Responding to both of these... but also a few other comments...

Tom...
Trump's obstruction is a completely separate charge and issue. You're quite literally conflating 'treason' with 'lying about it'. If BIDEN committed treason in 2000, then he lied about it for 5+ years, even while someone else he was CRITICAL of (sounds like the Thomas hearings all over again) was being accused of it.... and he only 'came clean' years after any value from that information had likely been extracted (if that was the purpose).

And if it's NOT the purpose... to keep top secret documents from being disclosed... then what is the point in document retention laws? You just can't have it both ways.

Intent makes absolutely zero difference to guilt or innocence. All that matters is whether they broke the law or not. There appears to be at least an ARGUMENT that Trump (and thus Bill and W) did not. The severity of their actions... their intent would certainly make a difference in the sentencing... but we're not talking about robbing a bank here... we're talking about classified documents... national secrets.... a threat to our entire nation/way of life. If you 'accidentally' exposed the location of our top secret missile silos, it is certainly not as bad as if you did it on purpose, but either way, a secret VITAL to our nation's security has been exposed. I don't really give a rats ass if you did it on purpose, out of ignorance or laziness. You did it. It's like killing someone. No matter the reason, someone is dead and its because of you.

Bill and W weren't even investigated... so apparently these 'hard and fast rules' aren't as hard and fast as I think they should be. There is clearly at least an argument that it isn't even a crime.... and stop with the 'intent' stuff. That doesn't matter... it only changes the charge or sentence.

Biden and Hillary and Pence are completely different subjects. The difference between Pres and VP and even SOS may or may not matter... but that is not the slam dunk that you seem to think. A court should decide that... and frankly, if you look at the investigation of Hillary... the CLEAR evidence of classified documents not being properly secured... the CLEAR evidence of 'destruction of evidence' which IN AND OF ITSELF is evidence of 'intent'... and the capricious decision not to prosecute such an obvious infraction... a court should have decided that as well...

You don't get to pick and choose your victims. They either did it or they didn't. If they want to argue mitigation, that's fine... but that is not what a prosecutor... or someone interested in 'truth' should be doing at this point.

If Trump can't declassify documents, then not only did he violate national security laws, he obstructed. If he can, then he didn't do EITHER thing... and the government was wrong to go after him. Pence and Biden and especially Hillary are different arguments.... unless Obama wants to throw himself under the bus for them.

Let's hear that argument about presidential authority and go from there.

I DO have to ask though.... do you not find it odd that both Pence and Biden, but ESPECIALLY Biden, who had 5+ years to come across his documents... 'discover' classified materials AFTER they are discovered on Trump? Proof of nothing for certain, but I'm willing to bet that without Trump's incident, we NEVER hear about Biden's.... because even with his 'discovery', he faces a crapload of scrutiny on him and his son. Given his long history of self-serving lies, it is not believable that he has suddenly (and only momentarily) found solace in 'full disclosure'.

Doesn't matter, he's not going to jail. Elites don't go to jail unless they steal money from other elites.

(06-01-2023 02:58 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 02:44 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  So Donald Trump steals classified information on an attack against Iran for himself, and not long after, Jared Kushner receives $2 Billion from Saudi Arabia. Seems pretty fishy to me

Literally have the current head of the FBI about to be held in Contempt of Congress for trying to cover up a Democrat president's blatant corruption---and you are concerned because Kushner----who actually has a real business as private equity fund---got money from the Saudi's. Given that Trumps treatment of the Saudis was the same as his predecessor---Im not sure what the implication would be here. The fact is, any real reading of the actual financials shows that Trump's stint as president cost him money---unlike Biden---who's life in politics has been so lucrative that its almost impossible to square his current wealth with his modest public service earnings.

Got it. So it's ok to profit off the office of the President in backdoor deals with classified information, because some toothless, evidence-less accusation against the current president absolves your president.

And by the way, if you already believe that Trump (and his family, and his friends, and his cronies) didn't profit off the Presidency, even though he always stayed at Trump properties, spent 20% of his presidency playing golf at Trump properties, arranged a massive trademark deal with China for his daughter, sold massive amounts of merchandise based off his presidency... then I guess it makes sense that you don't think that Trump's son in law using his private equity firm in US relations to enrich himself to the tune of $2 Billion dollars isn't profiting. Or that he probably used classified information to do it with.

(06-01-2023 01:04 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 12:56 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  bwahahahahahahahahahaha

no they didnt.

Proof?

If so, as I said before, then whoever put it outside of a SCIF should be held accountable at the same standard as me or you.

Obama paid millions (payoff) to the national archives to move his documents to his library. They werent in DC.

(06-01-2023 04:02 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 02:58 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-01-2023 02:44 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  So Donald Trump steals classified information on an attack against Iran for himself, and not long after, Jared Kushner receives $2 Billion from Saudi Arabia. Seems pretty fishy to me

Literally have the current head of the FBI about to be held in Contempt of Congress for trying to cover up a Democrat president's blatant corruption---and you are concerned because Kushner----who actually has a real business as private equity fund---got money from the Saudi's. Given that Trumps treatment of the Saudis was the same as his predecessor---Im not sure what the implication would be here. The fact is, any real reading of the actual financials shows that Trump's stint as president cost him money---unlike Biden---who's life in politics has been so lucrative that its almost impossible to square his current wealth with his modest public service earnings.

Got it. So it's ok to profit off the office of the President in backdoor deals with classified information, because some toothless, evidence-less accusation against the current president absolves your president.

And by the way, if you already believe that Trump (and his family, and his friends, and his cronies) didn't profit off the Presidency, even though he always stayed at Trump properties, spent 20% of his presidency playing golf at Trump properties, arranged a massive trademark deal with China for his daughter, sold massive amounts of merchandise based off his presidency... then I guess it makes sense that you don't think that Trump's son in law using his private equity firm in US relations to enrich himself to the tune of $2 Billion dollars isn't profiting. Or that he probably used classified information to do it with.

Just because you can make up a fantasy in your head doesnt make it true----you realize that, right? Literally your entire rebuttal is made up crap and innuendo---basically Russia Russia Russia Pee Tape redux. What I posted is literally a document that both sides admit exists---a document that apparently incriminates a sitting president----being covered up by the Biden cronies in the DOJ. Im talking about a real life situation that is about to escalate to the Biden Administration FBI Director being held in Contempt of Congress---and your spinning Russia Russia Russia type fantasies.