The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

I’m in CT and actually watched the Pac12 network.

Watched it from opening kickoff in Memphis. It was incredibly easy to get and didn’t even cost a premium.

It’s weird how it wasn’t bots or fans of other conference that spread the lies about availability. It was PAC fans. It seems like some sort of ego protection thing, where they would invent this lie about access rather than admit that it wasn’t important enough to them to bother changing cable providers. It is the greatest manifestation, more than empty stadiums or lackluster ratings, of West Coast apathy and the number of pretend CFB fans in the region.

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

“I can’t get the PAC Network” = “I don’t want the PAC Network”


The PAC was lying to themselves. Had they been honest, they would have known it was dead as a peer to P2 and needed to make moves to survive


Instead they doubled down on the issues of PAC Net, and thought streaming was a viable solution which would have brought on a “I don’t want PAC subscription” response

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

I think a better way to say that was "It's too much hassle to get PacN". Let's face it, we're mostly a bunch of Cavemen watching Gladiators fight in the Colosseum, only now we can do it from our couch using a remote control. That's how our daddies watched football, and, gosh darnit, that's how WE wanna watch football! The PacN introduced enough barriers to entry that no casual fan would make effort, only committed fans of individual teams. THAT was its mistake. Today, in 2023, they could have rolled something like that out and it still would have struggled, though adoption rates would have been a bit higher at least, but back in 2012? It was just an idea before its time.

What's needed to revive people being sports fans on the West Coast? Long term.

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

i think the networks knew the truth so i don't think this led to the pac demise. the lie that led to the pac demise was their academic value translate directly to athletic market value.

I am a cord cutter, I have FuboTV and get Pac12N

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

I have it via sling and I've never watched it... ever. I also have the ACC Network, Longhorn and SEC Networks. I never watch them because I could care less about the ****** sports talk shows they have and watching rebroadcast games from 5 years ago or watching their Olympic sports. Doesn't interest me at all.

good point, well tought out
been watching PacN for yrs

(08-11-2023 11:04 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  ....Instead they doubled down on the issues of PAC Net, and thought streaming was a viable solution which would have brought on a “I don’t want PAC subscription” response

This is really a symptom of a societal sickness. People became fascinated with streaming when cord cutting looked like a cheaper option. It was always a sucker bet. The networks were NEVER going to allow the public to get the milk for free.

The sad thing is that streaming will always be a lesser quality way to view content. Also, no streaming platform will ever deliver the quantity nor the quality of Satellite or Cable packages.

Now, we have the destruction of the legendary PAC due to the obsession with streaming.

Nice job morons.

(08-11-2023 11:25 AM)Huan Wrote:  

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

i think the networks knew the truth so i don't think this led to the pac demise. the lie that led to the pac demise was their academic value translate directly to athletic market value.

The networks knew the truth that PAC fans wouldn’t be motivated to subscribe based on being offered programming catered to them.

The other stuff is just people becoming increasingly incapable of seeing the world outside the nutty political lens that they filter life through.

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

It was because their cable carrier didn't carry it and they didn't care enough to switch to one that did. LHN had a lot better distribution than P12N, let alone BTN, SECN and ACCN.

(08-11-2023 11:30 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

I have it via sling and I've never watched it... ever. I also have the ACC Network, Longhorn and SEC Networks. I never watch them because I could care less about the ****** sports talk shows they have and watching rebroadcast games from 5 years ago or watching their Olympic sports. Doesn't interest me at all.

I don't think I have it. I know I have the LHN, SECN, BTN and ACCN. Not sure I've ever watched ACCN. BTN is rare. Watch the LHN and SECN some. I actually picked my provider because they had the LHN.

(08-11-2023 11:22 AM)PlayBall! Wrote:  What's needed to revive people being sports fans on the West Coast? Long term.

It won’t happen. They have lives which don’t revolve around some false sense of self worth that comes from attachment to the athletic teams of a college they probably didn’t attend. (Looking at most Bama/SEC fans)

It’s really hot and boring in the south. Hence, rabid college fans. Lol.

(08-11-2023 11:22 AM)PlayBall! Wrote:  What's needed to revive people being sports fans on the West Coast? Long term.

People in the west are sports fans. But not primarily college sports fans.

Not only can’t be undone, it will likely be the norm for the rest of the country in 20 years.

College sports are intrinsically worse than professional sports as a game/competition. The level of play is lower and the mechanisms that pro sports use to introduce parity and level playing field are lacking.

But what college sports has, in contrast to the sort of sterile composers world of pro sports, is an intense personal connection, often generational, to a school and often to its rivals as well. That connection is really based on people staying in the same place for generations.

The Rust Belt and rural south have had the least amount of in-migration of anywhere in the states while the West, Southwest have had the highest. The West no longer has a critical mass of people with generational ties to a place with which to sustain college sports fervor. The increase in immigration to the South in recent years is going to introduce the same dilution of fandom which we already see in the urban schools of the ACC.

It’s just a matter of time before the same factors can hat hit the west early take hold elsewhere. Which is why CFB sort of has to replicate the sterile NFL approach because historic fandom is gradually eroding everywhere.

(08-11-2023 11:30 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2023 10:44 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The biggest lie in college football, and the single greatest contributor to the PAC’s demise was mostly spread by PAC fans.

“I can’t even get the PAC12 network”.

Was that true? No. It was a lie, as we’ll see below. And we can speculate as to why this lie was so prevalent especially on places like this sub.

Some key time points for expanding access to the PAC12 include:

Summer 2011 DISH.

August, 2014 YouTube International.

February 2015 Sling.

**DISH**
In the Summer of 2011, prior to the inaugural PAC12 kickoff, DISH was added as a PAC partner. This made the P12N available nationally. So what were the barriers to adoption for PAC fans?

1) Don’t have my own roof. Renters, apartment dwellers, and other people who literally could not place a dish on a roof did not have access.
2) NFL Sunday ticket. The only reason why DTV was a sticking point was that DTV was the home of NFL Sunday Ticket. Any PAC fan who chose DTV (and the choice was aided by the fact that if you called DTV to cancel and mentioned the P12N they would offer you free Sunday Ticket) obviously had a roof and the opportunity to get DISH. Although this segment of NFL-first fans had the opportunity to get DISH and P12N, they seem almost universally to have made the false claim/lie that “I can’t even get the P12N”. This lie served the purpose of protecting their egos as fans, because to say that I chose not to get the P12N would accurately characterize this segment as fair-weather fans.

**YouTube International**
The PAC12 network became available on YouTube International for $10 month. In August 2014. As an a la carte option this was the dream of early adopter cord-cutters. All that stood in their path was a $10 subscription and a VPN to spoof their location. I think a lot of early core-cutters had the VPN issue solved. So why didn’t they do this? Likely lack of awareness. Any positive mention of P12N access on any forum, including this one, was completely drowned out be the DTV-subscribing “I can’t get the P12N” fans noted above.

**Sling**
For people without roofs, Sling became an option in February 2015. For the 98% of American households with broadband Internet access, getting the PAC12N was a few mouse clicks away.

Now for 98% of the population “I can’t get the P12N” was an outright lie. So why is this narrative so pervasive on r/CFB?

Because P12 fans suck. Not because they didn’t pay for a service that might make them chose against another interest like the NFL. But because overwhelmingly people who made this choice outright will lied about it to cover the fact that they are fair-weather fans. And in doing so they completely undermined the financial viability of the conference by destroying its public perception and creating a barrier of misinformation that kept potential new subscribers and revenue from being realized by the conference.

I have it via sling and I've never watched it... ever. I also have the ACC Network, Longhorn and SEC Networks. I never watch them because I could care less about the ****** sports talk shows they have and watching rebroadcast games from 5 years ago or watching their Olympic sports. Doesn't interest me at all.

Womens gymnastics on the SEC network is actually pretty fun to watch, especially when they are at Auburn. There will be guys seated on the floor next to the floor exercise, and they will stand up and do an "interpretive dance" to whatever the opponent is doing on the floor exercise.

I think the problem was the lack of DirecTV and outside of the western cable systems it was in the sports pack almost everywhere

And sports pack subscription is low

Its easy to get in NC if you wanted to subscribe to the Spectrum sports pack

I think OP is missing the point...

The Pac-12 fans are going to find a way to watch their team. The FINANCIAL WINDFALL IS NOT FROM THE FANS. The financial windfall is from the millions of cable subscribers who's monthly cable bill includes carriage fees for the network whether they watch the channel or not.

Pac-12 network was AVAILABLE TO 90 million homes. But it wasn't CARRIED by 90 million homes. It was actually carried by 12 million homes.

Because the Pac-12 didn't have the leverage to get carriage deals that forced cable providers to put it on basic outside of Pac-12 markets and generate revenue from non-viewers in a way that the Big Ten did.

Big Ten Network by comparison is CARRIED in 60 million homes, because FOX was bundling the network with all their other channels and had leverage to make that happen.


The Pac-12 also lost money operationally -- because Larry Scott put Pac-12 Network and conference HQ in downtown San Francisco where they paid $696,000 in rent per month. And because they didn't have a partner like Fox to share infrastructure/reduce costs. AND the Pac-12 ordered their schools to fork over all their content even if they had existing local contracts at Pac-12 Network's launch.

A number of schools had to buy out existing contracts, so they started in the hole even before mediocre revenues from P12N came back.


And the premise of the thread title is just silly. Who cares if there's a lie over availability or not? Are you saying the Pac-12 DIDN'T DIE OVER LOW TV REVENUES? Because they clearly did. It sounds like you're trying to pin the death of the Pac-12 on fans not caring about the Pac-12 for them to get large enough TV revenues to survive. But that clearly doesn't matter because that's just not how carriage fees work.

(08-11-2023 11:49 AM)bullet Wrote:  It was because their cable carrier didn't carry it and they didn't care enough to switch to one that did. LHN had a lot better distribution than P12N, let alone BTN, SECN and ACCN.

It wasn’t surprising that people didn’t opt to get it. What was surprising was how many people joined in to spreading lie that it was unavailable. It’s basically accepted as fact, when virtually anyone who wanted the P12N had the option of getting it.

And I’m only talking about availability for out of footprint people. Most of the cable providers in the Western US carried the P12N, so for most of the PAC footprint you’d almost have to actively avoid the P12N not to have it.

Which I think may be surprising to the East coasters on this board. Some of whom have the P12N without even wanting it or making even a nominal effort to get it.