I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Knowing a lot of Purdue people in my life, they definitely care about NCAA Tournament wins, but they’re also not myopic enough to fire a coach if they’ve spent most of the regular season at #1. Heck, Indiana is a great example of how coaching instability since they separated from Bobby Knight hasn’t been doing them any favors.

(01-09-2024 12:08 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Knowing a lot of Purdue people in my life, they definitely care about NCAA Tournament wins, but they’re also not myopic enough to fire a coach if they’ve spent most of the regular season at #1. Heck, Indiana is a great example of how coaching instability since they separated from Bobby Knight hasn’t been doing them any favors.

The difference being that Bobby Knight was an a-hole who abused players (verbally and, more importantly, physically) and to be fired for cause for abusing players one last time after a no-tolerance policy.

Matt Painter doesn't have near Knight's pedigree, not even a Final Four appearance and could legitimately be fired for lack of performance in March

(01-09-2024 12:17 AM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 12:08 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Knowing a lot of Purdue people in my life, they definitely care about NCAA Tournament wins, but they’re also not myopic enough to fire a coach if they’ve spent most of the regular season at #1. Heck, Indiana is a great example of how coaching instability since they separated from Bobby Knight hasn’t been doing them any favors.

The difference being that Bobby Knight was an a-hole who abused players (verbally and, more importantly, physically) and to be fired for cause for abusing players one last time after a no-tolerance policy.

Matt Painter doesn't have near Knight's pedigree, not even a Final Four appearance and could legitimately be fired for lack of performance in March

Keady lasted 25 years and the best he did was go to the Elite Eight twice. If Painter could "legitimately" be fired for failing to make the final four, it's because he elevated the standards.

This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

(01-09-2024 12:43 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

If C2 was UCLA AD in 1961, he would've fired John Wooden. In 13 years, Wooden won 6 conference championships but never made a Final Four.

Wooden then won 10 national championships over the next 13 years.

(01-09-2024 02:37 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 12:43 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

If C2 was UCLA AD in 1961, he would've fired John Wooden. In 13 years, Wooden won 6 conference championships but never made a Final Four.

Wooden then won 10 national championships over the next 13 years.

Did Wooden routinely underachieve in that time in the Tournament and routinely lose to teams he should have beaten?

Bad comparison.

(01-09-2024 05:33 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 02:37 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 12:43 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

If C2 was UCLA AD in 1961, he would've fired John Wooden. In 13 years, Wooden won 6 conference championships but never made a Final Four.

Wooden then won 10 national championships over the next 13 years.

Did Wooden routinely underachieve in that time in the Tournament and routinely lose to teams he should have beaten?

Bad comparison.

He had no wins. He lost to Bradley (by 14), Santa Clara (by 9), & San Francisco (by 11).

You would've fired Wooden.

But getting to the Tournament was much harder and a much bigger deal than it now, though I know the NIT was just as if not more prominent than the NCAA Tournament. I definitely would have given him more leeway.

(01-07-2024 11:29 PM)C2__ Wrote:  But when does the frustration of the early NCAA Tournament exits and lack of Final Fours boil over? Especially if God forbid they lose to another 15 or 16 seed again?

Painter obviously knows how to build a program and if he routinely gets top 4 seeds, including top seeds, he's obviously doing something right. But eventually, I think the AD, alumni and fanbase would sour on him and force him out for severely underachieving in March.

I think you're grasping here. Painter is averaging more than 1 NCAAT win per year and has had a single digit seed in 12 of the 17 seasons he's coached that had an NCAAT. His teams have had a 5 or better seed in 7 straight tournaments. He had Purdue in the Sweet 16 in the Tournament before last. You have to be in the conversation to win Big, and Painter always has his Boilermakers in the conversation. As we just saw with Michigan, all it takes is one big run to flip the script from "always the bridesmaid" to "they overcame huge adversity to finally win it all".

(01-08-2024 07:48 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Purdue is quite content with mediocrity. What the he!! did Keady ever win??? He's a legend there.

Huggins won 18 NCAAT games in 16 seasons at Cinci, a bit lower than the rate of NCAAT winning that Painter has had at Purdue, and slightly better than the rate that Keady had (though Keady accomplished it over nearly twice the time period). That's a whole lot closer to "excellent" than "mediocre", for all 3 of them.

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Bobby Knight is, what, the 3rd or 4th best college basketball coach in history? He's probably not better than Wooden or K, but you could argue the merits of him vs any other coach in history. In Bobby Knight's 29 seasons at Indiana, he won 42 NCAAT games, a rate of about 1.45 NCAAT wins per season. Knight did win 3 titles and made 2 other final 4s, but the Tourney was a lot smaller in his early years than it is these days. Painter has won 1.17 NCAAT games per season. Perhaps he fades in his later years, perhaps he wins a couple titles and gets into the conversation with Knight as one of the best B1G coaches in history, I don't know which way it will go. But as numerous others in this thread have mentioned, the guy who would replace Painter if he's fired, especially after all the success that he's had, would be highly unlikely to succeed at the same level.

FYI, Purdue has had more NCAAT wins by a significant margin than Indiana has in the 22 Tourneys since Knight was fired. Smart move, Indiana. I wonder what would happen to Purdue if they forced out one of their own when he was knocking at the door year after year?

(01-09-2024 08:05 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Bobby Knight is, what, the 3rd or 4th best college basketball coach in history? He's probably not better than Wooden or K, but you could argue the merits of him vs any other coach in history. In Bobby Knight's 29 seasons at Indiana, he won 42 NCAAT games, a rate of about 1.45 NCAAT wins per season. Knight did win 3 titles and made 2 other final 4s, but the Tourney was a lot smaller in his early years than it is these days. Painter has won 1.17 NCAAT games per season. Perhaps he fades in his later years, perhaps he wins a couple titles and gets into the conversation with Knight as one of the best B1G coaches in history, I don't know which way it will go. But as numerous others in this thread have mentioned, the guy who would replace Painter if he's fired, especially after all the success that he's had, would be highly unlikely to succeed at the same level.

FYI, Purdue has had more NCAAT wins by a significant margin than Indiana has in the 22 Tourneys since Knight was fired. Smart move, Indiana. I wonder what would happen to Purdue if they forced out one of their own when he was knocking at the door year after year?

I think it comes down how much you value the Final Four vs just getting in the Tourney. Sure Purdue makes the NCAA tournament & sometimes wins a game or two. Indiana made the Final Four in 2002 after Knight while Keady & Painter haven't made any. One could argue that Indiana's strategy has been more successful. Now, maybe Purdue isn't a place that can sustain a program that aspires to get to Final Fours - perhaps they are in the next group down. In that case, Painter is fine. I think Purdue is content to win big in the Big 10 & hope for tourney success. It always seemed to me that Purdue fans didn't have expecatations of the elite Big 10 basketball schools like Michigan State & Indiana and also weren't willing to spend the $$ or bend the rules as much to win. Maybe that is a good outlook for a school known for engineering in a cornfield.

(01-09-2024 08:05 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Bobby Knight is, what, the 3rd or 4th best college basketball coach in history? He's probably not better than Wooden or K, but you could argue the merits of him vs any other coach in history. In Bobby Knight's 29 seasons at Indiana, he won 42 NCAAT games, a rate of about 1.45 NCAAT wins per season. Knight did win 3 titles and made 2 other final 4s, but the Tourney was a lot smaller in his early years than it is these days. Painter has won 1.17 NCAAT games per season. Perhaps he fades in his later years, perhaps he wins a couple titles and gets into the conversation with Knight as one of the best B1G coaches in history, I don't know which way it will go. But as numerous others in this thread have mentioned, the guy who would replace Painter if he's fired, especially after all the success that he's had, would be highly unlikely to succeed at the same level.

FYI, Purdue has had more NCAAT wins by a significant margin than Indiana has in the 22 Tourneys since Knight was fired. Smart move, Indiana. I wonder what would happen to Purdue if they forced out one of their own when he was knocking at the door year after year?

What part of "Indiana HAD to fire Knight" don't you guys understand? And for nothing on the court.

(01-09-2024 12:43 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

I think the question was very vague. A double digit seeded team could be as high as a #11 seed and it could be in the Sweet 16 or regional final.

I would say if Purdue loses another 1-16 game or 2-15 game he has to be fired. The comparison to Virginia is ridiculous considering Purdue lost to St. Peter's the year before and North Texas (a #13 seed) the year before that. stever also pointed out a stat that Purdue has lost as the #1 ranked team twice this year to unranked teams and it's the second straight year it's happened as well. If Painter can't mentally prepare for bad or mediocre teams now, what makes you think Painter can prepare for them in the NCAA Tournament? He wants us to think this year is going to be different but the results say otherwise.

(01-10-2024 06:07 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 12:43 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  This might be the one time I find a poll on here actually useful. At 18 no votes to 1 yes (presumably OP), I think it’s clear how silly of a thought experiment this is question is.

I think the question was very vague. A double digit seeded team could be as high as a #11 seed and it could be in the Sweet 16 or regional final.

I would say if Purdue loses another 1-16 game or 2-15 game he has to be fired. The comparison to Virginia is ridiculous considering Purdue lost to St. Peter's the year before and North Texas (a #13 seed) the year before that. stever also pointed out a stat that Purdue has lost as the #1 ranked team twice this year to unranked teams and it's the second straight year it's happened as well. If Painter can't mentally prepare for bad or mediocre teams now, what makes you think Painter can prepare for them in the NCAA Tournament? He wants us to think this year is going to be different but the results say otherwise.

I just don’t think the track record is very good for schools that fire a coach like Painter. He has them as a fixture in the NCAAT and one of the premier teams in the Big Ten. He’s a great coach. Fire a coach for failing to make the tourney not for coming up short. A lot of it is luck based anyway. Schools don’t usually replace one great coach with another. Typically takes 2-3 coaching hires.

(01-09-2024 09:18 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 08:05 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-08-2024 08:34 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  I think Purdue fans are happy to win Big 10 games & don't really care about NCAA tourney. It seems like Indiana fans demand NCAA titles & Purdue fans demand Big 10 titles. Its amazing how many regular season wins Purdue has vs NCAA tourney success. Even if Painter loses to a 16 seed again he will keep his job & probably get a raise.

Bobby Knight is, what, the 3rd or 4th best college basketball coach in history? He's probably not better than Wooden or K, but you could argue the merits of him vs any other coach in history. In Bobby Knight's 29 seasons at Indiana, he won 42 NCAAT games, a rate of about 1.45 NCAAT wins per season. Knight did win 3 titles and made 2 other final 4s, but the Tourney was a lot smaller in his early years than it is these days. Painter has won 1.17 NCAAT games per season. Perhaps he fades in his later years, perhaps he wins a couple titles and gets into the conversation with Knight as one of the best B1G coaches in history, I don't know which way it will go. But as numerous others in this thread have mentioned, the guy who would replace Painter if he's fired, especially after all the success that he's had, would be highly unlikely to succeed at the same level.

FYI, Purdue has had more NCAAT wins by a significant margin than Indiana has in the 22 Tourneys since Knight was fired. Smart move, Indiana. I wonder what would happen to Purdue if they forced out one of their own when he was knocking at the door year after year?

What part of "Indiana HAD to fire Knight" don't you guys understand? And for nothing on the court.

They didn't HAVE TO fire him, they chose to fire him b/c he was out of control. More importantly, he had lost his fastball + he was out of control. If he was still winning big at that time then he'd probably have gotten away with his latest chair throwing/yellin'/spittin'/whatever incident that pushed him out the door.

In Bobby Knight's first 23 years at Indiana, they won 40 NCAAT games, 3 Titles and went to 2 other Final 4s. In his last 6 years, they won 2 total NCAAT games and were a 6-9 seed every year. THAT is the reason that Indiana "had to" fire him, his shenanigans just gave them the perfect excuse. Realistically, they made the right call to move on from him, though at the time it was hard for some people to see that. Not b/c he was an a-hole, but because he wasn't living up to his own VERY high standards. If you want to compare Knight to Coack K, it was how they ended rather than their starts or middle years that set K apart. K went to the Final 4 his last year, while Knight went out with a wimper at Indiana then spent another 6.5 yrs at Texas Tech (3 more NCAAT wins total). So, in total:

first 23 years: 40 NCAAT wins, 3 Titles, 2 other final 4s
last 12.5 yrs: 5 NCAAT wins, one sweet 16

Knight wrote that he told Jordan, “You’re the best player, so I’ll expect more from you and demand more from you. But I’ll also probably at times get on you when you don’t deserve it. I’m simply giving everybody else a message.”

After the quarterfinals, Knight moved Jordan to tears, ordering him to apologize to his teammates for a six-turnover performance in an 11-point win over West Germany (the Americans’ closest game).

“I don’t know if I would have done (the 1984 Olympics) if I knew what Knight was going to be like,” Jordan said in March 1991, according to Sam Smith‘s book, “The Jordan Rules.”

It takes intense heat to forge a finely honed Blade like Michael Jordan, likely the most intense and competitive athlete in any team sport in American history. I'd never heard that story that Knight moved him to tears. THAT was peak Bobby Knight, all the Bad, but the Good far outweighed the bad, and, let's face it, you needed a bit of the Bad to coach Michael Jordan. In Knights later years, his demons got the best of him and he wasn't able to be both the good cop AND bad cop at the same time.

It's like a tale of 2 different coaches. Painter is a LOT better than "old Knight", but only a handful of coaches in history are comparable to "young Knight". Would you really fire a guy who's always in the mix and is one big run away from a title in a Quixotic quest to find the next Bobby Knight? It doesn't matter if you're at Purdue or almost anywhere else. The only place that could plausibly fire a guy like Painter are UNC, Duke, Kentucky or Kansas, and even they would give him a lot of years of 1/2/3 NCAAT seeds with subpar tournament results before moving on from him.