(02-09-2024 12:59 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The only person indicted was the person who could legally hold these documents.

at least arguably... this is true.

I understand that he might not win that argument... but the argument he is making is not devoid of interpretation and would only apply to the chief executive (or his assigns... and no other person has argued that they were TOLD to keep this stuff by the President)

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Well, only the one who broke the law.

Trump was president when he had the docs.

Biden* was VP.

Big difference on what's permissible.

(02-09-2024 01:56 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Well, only the one who broke the law.

Trump was ex-president when he had the docs.

Biden* was VP.

Big difference on what's permissible.

ALL MY EXES LIVE IN TEXAS

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Stop being that one dumb***....

every president (or at least in our lifetime) and most likely every vp took docs that probably were classified as part of their recorded history as holding that office. Up till now that had not been a problem.

I see the "they are allowed to vote" on here all the damn time. You fit that with this bullshite and the "if I had done that"...the President can put his hands and eyes on the lowest to the highest at any time without someone telling him to do so or a time to do it. Unless you could do that, you are not the same. My bet is all of these papers were taken while he was STILL PRESIDENT. Not only that while he still held the highest classification. I seriously doubt if any president took world secrets that could hurt this country. Not even Biden

The fact you believe some low ranking person in the armed forces or a lowly government contractor is treated the same or follows the same rules as the president (or vp) just because they are given a classification ....

is beyond foolish and puts you right next to the "they are allowed to vote"

But Biden gave his back……after he and Hunter were through with them.

(02-09-2024 08:01 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  But Biden gave his back……after he and Hunter were through with them.

he had no right to take it in the first place ...

STRICT LIABILITY

(02-09-2024 11:22 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:17 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Or how about applying the law fairly? How about just doing that?

Which would put them both in jail.

News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.

And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.

As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

(02-09-2024 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:22 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:17 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Or how about applying the law fairly? How about just doing that?

Which would put them both in jail.

News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.

And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.

As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

While you most likely never had this to happen let me ask you a question. If you wanted to see a piece of paper someone had to OK? If you took that piece of paper out of the room you were breaking the law? Or if you held it up in front of a TV camera without it being approved you would go to prison? I'm going to guess the question I'm asking is 99.99999% sure you never experienced. So just answer off what you know....

If the President wanted to view those papers he could without asking permission?
If the President took the papers out of the room no matter how high of classification they were he could?
If the President read them then decided to go in front of a TV and tell the world what was on that paper he could without going to prison or breaking any law?

From what I've read I believe the President could do any or all of those legally have the power to do so. Might not be the best thing to do but he has that power?

That right there is why there is a difference between you, me or MIB getting charged and any President of this country not.

As you pointed out there are millions of papers a President might see that are "top secret" but not hurt this country at all if they were shown. Just a guess on my part but I bet every President and VP or politician that deals with these meaningless "top secret" crap every day and 100s of pages. At one time or another spoke of something on them in a public setting......

"The federal government classifies more than 50 million documents a year"

(02-09-2024 01:56 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Well, only the one who broke the law.

Trump was president when he had the docs.

Biden* was VP.

Big difference on what's permissible.

Giving Biden too much credit. He also had classified docs from his time in the Senate.

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

One of these things is not like the other.

(02-09-2024 11:28 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:22 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:17 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Or how about applying the law fairly? How about just doing that?

Which would put them both in jail.

Trump's DOJ can still indict Joe when he gets in the WH. No immunity and all.

And if he doesn't do that should he win he'll lose a ton of support. His voters want these crooks held accountable.

(02-09-2024 12:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:47 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  Unfortunately for your view, Trump is not like the others.

NONE of them were the same... The issue is one of protecting our national security... and not one of 'checking some compliance box'. If you had these documents outside of specific areas and times, you have broken the law.

If there are ANY exceptions, they would have applied more to Trump as President than to anyone else... so if he doesn't have them, neither do any others.

Period.

This whole idea that Trump's handling of the documents at his private residence was somehow 'worse' than Biden's storage of documents in the garage at his AirBnB or Hillary's use of the internet outside the protection of a government server... I don't know nor care about the details of Pence... is just partisan lunacy.

The ONLY difference, which makes NO difference to the security of our nation... which is the MAJOR charge to all of them is that Trump said that he'd turned everything over... for which he has made a legal case (which may not win, but this is a different issue)

Biden's only argument is that his retention was unintentional... which doesn't mean he didn't expose our national secrets... Hillary, they simply declined to prosecute because 'intent' is so hard to prove... weak sauce for something so important...

If you want to stop/prevent this, you don't allow 'intent' to be an excuse. It might change the penalty, but it doesn't change the issue that the law is trying to prevent.

I've been told that ignorance of the law is no excuse. And I don't think this even meets that criteria. He knew all along that being in possession of classified docs is wrong.

(02-09-2024 12:59 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The only person indicted was the person who could legally hold these documents.

Welcome to Amerika.

(02-09-2024 05:56 PM)green Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 01:56 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Well, only the one who broke the law.

Trump was ex-president when he had the docs.

Biden* was VP.

Big difference on what's permissible.

ALL MY EXES LIVE IN TEXAS

Yet he is still referred to as President Trump.

(02-10-2024 12:45 AM)banker Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 01:56 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:59 AM)mlb Wrote:  They both should go to jail. Simple as that.

Well, only the one who broke the law.

Trump was president when he had the docs.

Biden* was VP.

Big difference on what's permissible.

Giving Biden too much credit. He also had classified docs from his time in the Senate.

Thank you, I figured someone would point that out.

lol.

Trump is the only candidate mentally sharp enough to be indicted.

(02-10-2024 12:35 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.

And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.

As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

While you most likely never had this to happen let me ask you a question. If you wanted to see a piece of paper someone had to OK? If you took that piece of paper out of the room you were breaking the law? Or if you held it up in front of a TV camera without it being approved you would go to prison? I'm going to guess the question I'm asking is 99.99999% sure you never experienced. So just answer off what you know....

If the President wanted to view those papers he could without asking permission?
If the President took the papers out of the room no matter how high of classification they were he could?
If the President read them then decided to go in front of a TV and tell the world what was on that paper he could without going to prison or breaking any law?

From what I've read I believe the President could do any or all of those legally have the power to do so. Might not be the best thing to do but he has that power?

That right there is why there is a difference between you, me or MIB getting charged and any President of this country not.

As you pointed out there are millions of papers a President might see that are "top secret" but not hurt this country at all if they were shown. Just a guess on my part but I bet every President and VP or politician that deals with these meaningless "top secret" crap every day and 100s of pages. At one time or another spoke of something on them in a public setting......

"The federal government classifies more than 50 million documents a year"

People have gone to jail by mishandling classified data if that is what you are asking TripleA. I'm not sure why you think they don't. I also had officers go through my folders as I left to make sure I wasn't taking anything that wasn't allowed outside of the SCIF.

I understand your point about Trump being President and being able to remove the classification on the information, but he has a process that has to be followed when he does that. There is nothing that backs up his assertion that he declassified the documents he took with him. However, if he can prove he did, then someone else in his administration should come forward and say that they accidentally didn't submit the declassification to the agency that owned the data. Nobody has done that either. Ultimately, he should have just given the paperwork back instead of holding out.

Will he go to jail? No. Just like the other politicians never do. They all have different rules than the average guy out there. They take the same oath, are told of the same penalties, and then never follow any of it. It is a load of crap and shouldn't happen. The penalties, btw, are typically up to a year in prison and up to a $100,000 fine. Petraes got the fine, but got zero prison time (2 years probation).

Hence, yes, I think he should be charged and found guilty. I think Biden should be charged and found guilty. I think Hillary should be charged for the email server and found guilty.

(02-09-2024 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.
And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.
As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

As I holder of Top Secret Crypto SIOP-ESI for 18 years, I agree completely. I was in the fleet rather than DC but saw the same things from my different perspective.

(02-10-2024 11:34 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(02-10-2024 12:35 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.

And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.

As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

While you most likely never had this to happen let me ask you a question. If you wanted to see a piece of paper someone had to OK? If you took that piece of paper out of the room you were breaking the law? Or if you held it up in front of a TV camera without it being approved you would go to prison? I'm going to guess the question I'm asking is 99.99999% sure you never experienced. So just answer off what you know....

If the President wanted to view those papers he could without asking permission?
If the President took the papers out of the room no matter how high of classification they were he could?
If the President read them then decided to go in front of a TV and tell the world what was on that paper he could without going to prison or breaking any law?

From what I've read I believe the President could do any or all of those legally have the power to do so. Might not be the best thing to do but he has that power?

That right there is why there is a difference between you, me or MIB getting charged and any President of this country not.

As you pointed out there are millions of papers a President might see that are "top secret" but not hurt this country at all if they were shown. Just a guess on my part but I bet every President and VP or politician that deals with these meaningless "top secret" crap every day and 100s of pages. At one time or another spoke of something on them in a public setting......

"The federal government classifies more than 50 million documents a year"

People have gone to jail by mishandling classified data if that is what you are asking TripleA. I'm not sure why you think they don't. I also had officers go through my folders as I left to make sure I wasn't taking anything that wasn't allowed outside of the SCIF.

I understand your point about Trump being President and being able to remove the classification on the information, but he has a process that has to be followed when he does that. There is nothing that backs up his assertion that he declassified the documents he took with him. However, if he can prove he did, then someone else in his administration should come forward and say that they accidentally didn't submit the declassification to the agency that owned the data. Nobody has done that either. Ultimately, he should have just given the paperwork back instead of holding out.

Will he go to jail? No. Just like the other politicians never do. They all have different rules than the average guy out there. They take the same oath, are told of the same penalties, and then never follow any of it. It is a load of crap and shouldn't happen. The penalties, btw, are typically up to a year in prison and up to a $100,000 fine. Petraes got the fine, but got zero prison time (2 years probation).

Hence, yes, I think he should be charged and found guilty. I think Biden should be charged and found guilty. I think Hillary should be charged for the email server and found guilty.

There are ALWAYS disputes over what are personal and what are government papers with former presidents. It took a long time for them to negotiate that with Obama. They didn't send the FBI to raid his house. This was a targeted political persecution by the Deep State.

There is nothing Trump did with papers guarded by the Secret Service that threatened the nation's security. We KNOW Hillary's server got hacked by a number of foreign governments. Biden's papers could have been picked up by any kid riding down the street on a bike.

That is why this prosecution is so absurd.

(02-10-2024 11:34 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(02-10-2024 12:35 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  News flash. Many in Congress would also go to jail.

And this is coming from someone (me) who held a Top Secret classification for 16 years, and worked with DC and the military industrial complex for most of that time. At the SEC NAV level.

As a rule, IMO and experience, the vast majority of gov docs are way over-classified, for reasons having nothing to do with reality, but much to do with CYA and political agendas.

While you most likely never had this to happen let me ask you a question. If you wanted to see a piece of paper someone had to OK? If you took that piece of paper out of the room you were breaking the law? Or if you held it up in front of a TV camera without it being approved you would go to prison? I'm going to guess the question I'm asking is 99.99999% sure you never experienced. So just answer off what you know....

If the President wanted to view those papers he could without asking permission?
If the President took the papers out of the room no matter how high of classification they were he could?
If the President read them then decided to go in front of a TV and tell the world what was on that paper he could without going to prison or breaking any law?

From what I've read I believe the President could do any or all of those legally have the power to do so. Might not be the best thing to do but he has that power?

That right there is why there is a difference between you, me or MIB getting charged and any President of this country not.

As you pointed out there are millions of papers a President might see that are "top secret" but not hurt this country at all if they were shown. Just a guess on my part but I bet every President and VP or politician that deals with these meaningless "top secret" crap every day and 100s of pages. At one time or another spoke of something on them in a public setting......

"The federal government classifies more than 50 million documents a year"

People have gone to jail by mishandling classified data if that is what you are asking TripleA. I'm not sure why you think they don't. I also had officers go through my folders as I left to make sure I wasn't taking anything that wasn't allowed outside of the SCIF.

I understand your point about Trump being President and being able to remove the classification on the information, but he has a process that has to be followed when he does that. There is nothing that backs up his assertion that he declassified the documents he took with him. However, if he can prove he did, then someone else in his administration should come forward and say that they accidentally didn't submit the declassification to the agency that owned the data. Nobody has done that either. Ultimately, he should have just given the paperwork back instead of holding out.

Will he go to jail? No. Just like the other politicians never do. They all have different rules than the average guy out there. They take the same oath, are told of the same penalties, and then never follow any of it. It is a load of crap and shouldn't happen. The penalties, btw, are typically up to a year in prison and up to a $100,000 fine. Petraes got the fine, but got zero prison time (2 years probation).

Hence, yes, I think he should be charged and found guilty. I think Biden should be charged and found guilty. I think Hillary should be charged for the email server and found guilty.

Once AGAIN, show this process the president has to go through to declassify a document. Show where the executive branch has burdened themselves with this. The president is commander in chief. Classification is solely at the President in offices discretion. Period. The only recourse for a president giving up damaging national interests is impeachment.