Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

I tend to agree with this. I would add on to it be doing Universal Basic Income through a prebate method and scrapping some of the means-tested welfare programs that have benefit cliffs like SNAP and TANF. This eliminates the argument that VAT and sales taxes are regressive because the poor spend a greater percentage of their income, and encourages increased participation in the labor force.

We probably have to leave some pieces of the tax code in place at least on an interim basis given their would be some fairness issues regarding things like traditional vs. Roth retirement contributions, but those could be wound down over time.

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

The Fair Tax proposal needs to be dusted off and reviewed again. In it's proposed form it looks to be the best and fairest solution to our tax issues. By its very nature it ensures that everyone is taxed equally when purchases are made. Don't want to pay a lot in taxes? Don't want to pay a lot in taxes, don't buy that expensive item you probably don't really need anyway. There's also a pre-bate provision for everyone that ensures the lowest earners start out at the same level as anyone else and again, your individual tax rate is largely determined by your own spending habits. The pre-bate makes sure that no one who earns under poverty level ever pays a dimer in taxes. It all but removes the IRS as there's no need to file a yearly income tax, it does away with that entire bureaucracy. It also allows earner to bring home their entire paycheck. Personally I would love to take home my entire check.

There's a whole lot more to it and Owl #'s is better suited to discuss the Fair Tax as he has in the past. Hopefully he'll chime in. My memory of most of it is sketchy. I read the book on it when it was first introduced quite a while back.

(02-15-2024 07:16 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

I tend to agree with this. I would add on to it be doing Universal Basic Income through a prebate method and scrapping some of the means-tested welfare programs that have benefit cliffs like SNAP and TANF. This eliminates the argument that VAT and sales taxes are regressive because the poor spend a greater percentage of their income, and encourages increased participation in the labor force.

We probably have to leave some pieces of the tax code in place at least on an interim basis given their would be some fairness issues regarding things like traditional vs. Roth retirement contributions, but those could be wound down over time.

The Fair Tax accomplishes all of that w/o an actual UBI. While the pre-bate contained within the Fair Tax is essentially the same thing it's not called UBI nor is it treated as such.

You won't ever hear much about this proposal and honestly I wasn't even aware that its still being pushed but it is. Go here to learn more if interested.

A link to Fairtax.org

(02-15-2024 07:25 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

The Fair Tax proposal needs to be dusted off and reviewed again. In it's proposed form it looks to be the best and fairest solution to our tax issues. By its very nature it ensures that everyone is taxed equally when purchases are made. Don't want to pay a lot in taxes? Don't want to pay a lot in taxes, don't buy that expensive item you probably don't really need anyway. There's also a pre-bate provision for everyone that ensures the lowest earners start out at the same level as anyone else and again, your individual tax rate is largely determined by your own spending habits. The pre-bate makes sure that no one who earns under poverty level ever pays a dimer in taxes. It all but removes the IRS as there's no need to file a yearly income tax, it does away with that entire bureaucracy. It also allows earner to bring home their entire paycheck. Personally I would love to take home my entire check.

There's a whole lot more to it and Owl #'s is better suited to discuss the Fair Tax as he has in the past. Hopefully he'll chime in. My memory of most of it is sketchy. I read the book on it when it was first introduced quite a while back.

You said the magic words and those words are exactly why this will never, ever happen.

(02-15-2024 08:00 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 07:25 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

The Fair Tax proposal needs to be dusted off and reviewed again. In it's proposed form it looks to be the best and fairest solution to our tax issues. By its very nature it ensures that everyone is taxed equally when purchases are made. Don't want to pay a lot in taxes? Don't want to pay a lot in taxes, don't buy that expensive item you probably don't really need anyway. There's also a pre-bate provision for everyone that ensures the lowest earners start out at the same level as anyone else and again, your individual tax rate is largely determined by your own spending habits. The pre-bate makes sure that no one who earns under poverty level ever pays a dimer in taxes. It all but removes the IRS as there's no need to file a yearly income tax, it does away with that entire bureaucracy. It also allows earner to bring home their entire paycheck. Personally I would love to take home my entire check.

There's a whole lot more to it and Owl #'s is better suited to discuss the Fair Tax as he has in the past. Hopefully he'll chime in. My memory of most of it is sketchy. I read the book on it when it was first introduced quite a while back.

You said the magic words and those words are exactly why this will never, ever happen.

Too much power in the tax codes for politicians to give up. You’re right. It will never happen.

(02-15-2024 08:00 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 07:25 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

The Fair Tax proposal needs to be dusted off and reviewed again. In it's proposed form it looks to be the best and fairest solution to our tax issues. By its very nature it ensures that everyone is taxed equally when purchases are made. Don't want to pay a lot in taxes? Don't want to pay a lot in taxes, don't buy that expensive item you probably don't really need anyway. There's also a pre-bate provision for everyone that ensures the lowest earners start out at the same level as anyone else and again, your individual tax rate is largely determined by your own spending habits. The pre-bate makes sure that no one who earns under poverty level ever pays a dimer in taxes. It all but removes the IRS as there's no need to file a yearly income tax, it does away with that entire bureaucracy. It also allows earner to bring home their entire paycheck. Personally I would love to take home my entire check.

There's a whole lot more to it and Owl #'s is better suited to discuss the Fair Tax as he has in the past. Hopefully he'll chime in. My memory of most of it is sketchy. I read the book on it when it was first introduced quite a while back.

You said the magic words and those words are exactly why this will never, ever happen.

I agree

Too many profit of our tax system in order to eliminate it

Many high earning jobs...pooof

Fair tax all day long but both parties get elected over and over thanks to their control of the income tax laws.

(02-15-2024 07:16 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(02-15-2024 06:49 AM)boss man Wrote:  Owl69 has espoused the USA drop the current archaic income tax model and convert to a VAT. I agree with this. This current income tax scheme is simply outdated and punative.

I tend to agree with this. I would add on to it be doing Universal Basic Income through a prebate method and scrapping some of the means-tested welfare programs that have benefit cliffs like SNAP and TANF. This eliminates the argument that VAT and sales taxes are regressive because the poor spend a greater percentage of their income, and encourages increased participation in the labor force.

We probably have to leave some pieces of the tax code in place at least on an interim basis given their would be some fairness issues regarding things like traditional vs. Roth retirement contributions, but those could be wound down over time.

I just can't bring myself to support UBI.

If the purpose is to give everyone an equal share of government-provide income:

1. to fight poverty -- How? Give everyone $30,000? With that much currency pumped into the economy, will prices rise? And how would UBI fight poverty in a way current welfare hasn't been able to accomplish.
2. to eliminate unnecessary government bureaucracy -- I don't see any bureaucracies just fading away. That's not how a corrupt, out of control government does business.
   

It has been shown time and time again, that socialism does not work. If people don't have to work for their gains, they will essentially free-load off others. Marxism tried to address that by stating every member of society has the "liability" to work -- not "right" to work. The citizen MUST work by state decree.

Unless the government is going to demand every individual work (a type of indentured servitude), then way too many people will choose not to work.

If any form of safety net is to be provided, it should be assisting people in getting educated. To receive government payments, a person must choose a career path and start attending classes to earn a degree or certification. Adequate progress toward this would be a requirement to continue receiving payments. Once the course of study has been completed and a degree or certification has been earned, then we'd move to the next phase -- employment assistance. The individual must actively seek employment to remain on the program. Once work has been found, they come off the program.

Instead of taking government assistance, they become independent and join the ranks of tax payers.

Or course, becoming a tax payer might just make they rethink the idea of providing handouts to free-loaders.

(02-15-2024 07:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  The Fair Tax accomplishes all of that w/o an actual UBI. While the pre-bate contained within the Fair Tax is essentially the same thing it's not called UBI nor is it treated as such.

The biggest difference between a pre-bate and a UBI is that a pre-bate encourages you to work above board and report your earnings... at least up to a point... while a UBI discourages you from working above board and encourages 'cash' under the table.

With 2,3,4,5,6,7 trillion dollar annual deficits on the horizon, why do we even pay any income tax at all?