Isn’t it a little astounding that Notre Dame built their program into a powerhouse? Surely out of all the many Catholic schools out there, it would have been some large urban center like NYC (St John’s), Boston (BC), Philadelphia (Villanova), DC (Georgetown), or Chicago (DePaul) that would become the standard bearer of Catholic football. How on earth was it the school in South Bend, IN?! Indiana didn’t even have a high per capita Catholic population during the rise of the program. Indiana is square in the middle of Methodist country.

You could point to the lack of professional competition in the area but Xavier, Dayton, and Marquette didn’t either.

You could point to their barnstorming national schedule as an independent but there were plenty of other independents out there who traveled beyond the states they immediately bordered for games.

They just seem highly unlikely to be where they are today.

Maybe it just comes down to a few really good coaching hires over the decades.

I mean, they did have James McWeeney, that's about as good as it gets right there.

N

(03-28-2024 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Isn’t it a little astounding that Notre Dame built their program into a powerhouse? Surely out of all the many Catholic schools out there, it would have been some large urban center like NYC (St John’s), Boston (BC), Philadelphia (Villanova), DC (Georgetown), or Chicago (DePaul) that would become the standard bearer of Catholic football. How on earth was it the school in South Bend, IN?! Indiana didn’t even have a high per capita Catholic population during the rise of the program. Indiana is square in the middle of Methodist country.

You could point to the lack of professional competition in the area but Xavier, Dayton, and Marquette didn’t either.

You could point to their barnstorming national schedule as an independent but there were plenty of other independents out there who traveled beyond the states they immediately bordered for games.

They just seem highly unlikely to be where they are today.

Maybe it just comes down to a few really good coaching hires over the decades.

Easy answer. Knute Rockne.

He was responsible for:

-"Win one for the Gipper"

-The Four Horseman

-The "Notre Dame Shift"

-Barnstorming

-"Subway Alumni"

-Intersectional rivalry with USC

-Notre Dame Stadium

Rockne was an innovator and a marketing genius.

He(and ND) were the face of college football, did much to popularize the sport and won...a lot.

He emphasized and highlighted that a bunch of working class Irish Catholic guys at little 'ole ND were beating up on the (Protestant) big boys. That opened up the Catholic high school recruiting pipelines.

Had a Hollywood movie made of his life in 1940 (Rockne died in a plane crash in 1931) staring Pat OBrien and Ronald Reagan.

(During his playing days as an ND end, it was his idea to use the little known forward pass to lead unknown upstart ND to shock powerhouse Army 35-13 in 1913. People started throwing the ball after that. They also started to pay attention to ND.)

He started and is largely responsible for ND's football success .

Those after him built on what he did.

Without Knute Rockne ND is currently more like St.Norbert College.

Interestingly, in the year before Rockne took over (1917), Notre Dame played road games at Morningside and Washington & Jefferson.

Heck, in Rockne’s first 2 years (1918-19), Notre Dame played road games at Case, Morningside, & in-state Wabash.

They barnstormed and fielded teams full of the sons of Catholic immigrants. They became America’s Catholic team when Catholics were still overtly discriminated against. The fact they’re in Indiana made it cheaper to field a team vs Fordham or St. Mary’s

So no Rockne, no iconic program? They probably shut it down in the 60s or 70s when many other Catholic schools cut theirs?

What fills the vacuum?

Does Rockne elevate some other program to greatness instead?

At one time Fordham was a power as well. They chose a different path than ND in what role sports played at the school. Who knows where they would be today had they placed an emphasis on varsity athletics?

(03-29-2024 07:40 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So no Rockne, no iconic program? They probably shut it down in the 60s or 70s when many other Catholic schools cut theirs?

What fills the vacuum?

Rockne put it all in place. The others had the framework in place, just had to not mess it up.

Frank Leahy came along and had a powerhouse program in place and used it to win big.

The 1946-49 teams hardly ever lost a game. That cemented ND as a power program.

With the infrastructure in place that Rockne built and Leahy maintained, the program was set.

It was then strong enough to survive and keep its position and popularity even in the dark times of the late Fifties/early Sixties and a series of really poor coaching hires.

Then, ND hired Ara Parseghian in 1964. He pulled ND out of the doldrums.

That allowed the program to survive the Gerry Faust hire until Lou Holtz was hired.

He elevated the program back to Rockne/Leahy standards.

That allowed the program to survive the Davie/Willingham/Weis bad coaches troika.

Brian Kelly was able to restore some of the luster of the program.

Now you have Marcus Freeman going 19-7 the past two years and doing very well in recruiting/transfer portal.

The bottom line is this:

Rockne established ND as a premier program. He set up the Catholic school recruiting pipeline.

He made ND an icon. He set up the infrastructure for ND to stay one. He made ND popular enough to have a number of movies made about the football program.

That means that even given ND's up and down coaching hires and on the field results, the program remains popular, wealthy and with fans from coast to coast.

People keep waiting for ND's fanbase to die off or some other BS. They will wait forever. Rockne established the fan base. Their grandchildren and greatgrandchildren are still ND fans.

In my family, we are now on our fifth generation of ND fans, exclusively. No one in my extended family (grandparents, parents, siblings, aunts/uncles/cousins, nephews, children, grandchildren) has ever been a fan of any other program, even after attending and graduating from other universities.

It started off as an Irish and a Catholic thing and morphed into a family tradition.

Even in difficult times like the Vietnam War era, we put aside our generational disagreements to band together over Notre Dame football.

Surrounded by Notre Dame haters, we bonded over a "Us vs. them" (everyone else) mindset. That mindset partially explains why ND is still a football independent.

With the political divisions of the Trump years, we can talk to each other about the Fighting Irish. ND football is our common ground.

There are thousands of families just like mine from Maine to California.

They don't call Notre Dame Stadium "The House That Rockne Built" for nothing. He did so, both literally and figuratively.

There is a famous story of Bob Davie visiting Rockne's grave in the late Nineties. He was quoted as saying "So, you are the one who caused all of this mess", meaning the pressures that come with the ND coaching job.

(03-28-2024 11:56 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Interestingly, in the year before Rockne took over (1917), Notre Dame played road games at Morningside and Washington & Jefferson.

Heck, in Rockne’s first 2 years (1918-19), Notre Dame played road games at Case, Morningside, & in-state Wabash.

Not a total surprise. A&M's 12th man bowl game was against Centre College of KY.

(03-28-2024 11:56 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Interestingly, in the year before Rockne took over (1917), Notre Dame played road games at Morningside and Washington & Jefferson.

Heck, in Rockne’s first 2 years (1918-19), Notre Dame played road games at Case, Morningside, & in-state Wabash.

The Big Ten had rejected and boycotted ND.

The Irish had to play whomever, where ever.

Rockne invented barnstorming and playing all over, anyone, 40-50 years before Bobby Bowden did it at FSU.

(03-29-2024 07:51 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 07:40 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So no Rockne, no iconic program? They probably shut it down in the 60s or 70s when many other Catholic schools cut theirs?

What fills the vacuum?

Rockne put it all in place. The others had the framework in place, just had to not mess it up.

Frank Leahy came along and had a powerhouse program in place and used it to win big.

The 1946-49 teams hardly ever lost a game. That cemented ND as a power program.

With the infrastructure in place that Rockne built and Leahy maintained, the program was set. ...

And the post-WWII period was when the modern big time college football landscape was really set. A program that was already a big-time program at the start of the 50s didn't have to fight their way to being seen as a big time football school, they just had to avoid losing their seat as a big time football school.

(03-29-2024 07:50 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  At one time Fordham was a power as well. They chose a different path than ND in what role sports played at the school. Who knows where they would be today had they placed an emphasis on varsity athletics?

Fordham did hold athletics—especially football—in high regard. As pro football gained popularity in NYC, interest in the college teams waned and their attendance suffered. NYUwas playing in Yankee Stadium at the height of their popularity and they shuttered their program around 1952. Fordham played at the Polo Grounds and attendance AKA money problems forced them to shut down the program in the mid-50’s. Actually alumni saved them for one season and then they shut down the next. It wasn’t that they wanted to, they just couldn’t afford it anymore and didn’t have an on-campus stadium.

The book “Resurrection” by Jim Dent about Notre Dame football and Ara Parseghian is really good for those that haven’t read it.

(03-29-2024 11:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  The book “Resurrection” by Jim Dent about Notre Dame football and Ara Parseghian is really good for those that haven’t read it.

Jim Dent (the author) has served 18 years in prison, one 8-year sentence and now a 10-year sentence, for 10 DUI convictions. In between those sentences, he wrote books on Notre Dame, Johnny Manziel, & Texas. He previously wrote books on Oklahoma and the Cowboys and used to be the Cowboys’ beat writer. Junction Boys is also based off some of his work.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2015/04/...utType=amp

(03-29-2024 10:58 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 10:47 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 10:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 10:02 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 09:42 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No, they love it completely and totally.

Next question?

Exactly, everyone loves the mascot and that's helped propel the program.

Where a lot of Indian mascots have been cancelled; The Irish mascot has thrived.

lol

That is a Leprechaun, which is a supernatural entity from Irish folklore. People will complain about anything

Its a Fighting Irishman whose misshaped head suggest retardation.

Whoa. Who is racist?

Notre Dame Leprechaun

Maybe you should picket in South Bend with an Irish terrier

I do wish that ND would bring back Clashmore Mike as an additional mascot.

For forty years, ND had an Irish terrier mascot roaming the sidelines.

(03-29-2024 12:08 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 11:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  The book “Resurrection” by Jim Dent about Notre Dame football and Ara Parseghian is really good for those that haven’t read it.

Jim Dent (the author) has served 18 years in prison, one 8-year sentence and now a 10-year sentence, for 10 DUI convictions. In between those sentences, he wrote books on Notre Dame, Johnny Manziel, & Texas. He previously wrote books on Oklahoma and the Cowboys and used to be the Cowboys’ beat writer. Junction Boys is also based off some of his work.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2015/04/...utType=amp

Yeah, talented writer but really sad personal life

(03-28-2024 11:04 PM)TerryD Wrote:  N

(03-28-2024 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Isn’t it a little astounding that Notre Dame built their program into a powerhouse? Surely out of all the many Catholic schools out there, it would have been some large urban center like NYC (St John’s), Boston (BC), Philadelphia (Villanova), DC (Georgetown), or Chicago (DePaul) that would become the standard bearer of Catholic football. How on earth was it the school in South Bend, IN?! Indiana didn’t even have a high per capita Catholic population during the rise of the program. Indiana is square in the middle of Methodist country.

You could point to the lack of professional competition in the area but Xavier, Dayton, and Marquette didn’t either.

You could point to their barnstorming national schedule as an independent but there were plenty of other independents out there who traveled beyond the states they immediately bordered for games.

They just seem highly unlikely to be where they are today.

Maybe it just comes down to a few really good coaching hires over the decades.

Easy answer. Knute Rockne.

He was responsible for:

-"Win one for the Gipper"

-The Four Horseman

-The "Notre Dame Shift"

-Barnstorming

-"Subway Alumni"

-Intersectional rivalry with USC

-Notre Dame Stadium

Rockne was an innovator and a marketing genius.

He(and ND) were the face of college football, did much to popularize the sport and won...a lot.

He emphasized and highlighted that a bunch of working class Irish Catholic guys at little 'ole ND were beating up on the (Protestant) big boys. That opened up the Catholic high school recruiting pipelines.

Had a Hollywood movie made of his life in 1940 (Rockne died in a plane crash in 1931) staring Pat OBrien and Ronald Reagan.

(During his playing days as an ND end, it was his idea to use the little known forward pass to lead unknown upstart ND to shock powerhouse Army 35-13 in 1913. People started throwing the ball after that. They also started to pay attention to ND.)

He started and is largely responsible for ND's football success .

Those after him built on what he did.

Without Knute Rockne ND is currently more like St.Norbert College.

It's not just Knute Rockne. ND didn't have a losing record in a season until 1933. They always just won.

Funny statistical quirk:

ND has 14 losing seasons out of 117
ND has 14 unbeaten seasons out of 117

I'm not certain, but I don't think any other school can claim something that impressive.

Whoops, Michigan has 16 losing seasons and 17 unbeaten seasons, but 2 of those unbeaten seasons had 3 ties each. 9-0-3 one year, and 3-0-3 back in the early days of CFB. ND doesn't have any unbeaten season with more than 1 tie.

(03-29-2024 12:08 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Jim Dent (the author) has served 18 years in prison, one 8-year sentence and now a 10-year sentence, for 10 DUI convictions. In between those sentences, he wrote books on Notre Dame, Johnny Manziel, & Texas. He previously wrote books on Oklahoma and the Cowboys and used to be the Cowboys’ beat writer. Junction Boys is also based off some of his work.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2015/04/...utType=amp

"“He’s probably one of the biggest wastes of talent in our business,” Galloway tells me. “Being with Dent was a total trip, but he was one of those guys who had no stop sign. Everybody has some kind of stop sign. But if it’s booze, if it’s women, if it’s cocaine, if it’s gambling, Jim just didn’t have a stop sign.”

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d...-jim-dent/

(03-29-2024 12:24 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-28-2024 11:04 PM)TerryD Wrote:  N

(03-28-2024 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Isn’t it a little astounding that Notre Dame built their program into a powerhouse? Surely out of all the many Catholic schools out there, it would have been some large urban center like NYC (St John’s), Boston (BC), Philadelphia (Villanova), DC (Georgetown), or Chicago (DePaul) that would become the standard bearer of Catholic football. How on earth was it the school in South Bend, IN?! Indiana didn’t even have a high per capita Catholic population during the rise of the program. Indiana is square in the middle of Methodist country.

You could point to the lack of professional competition in the area but Xavier, Dayton, and Marquette didn’t either.

You could point to their barnstorming national schedule as an independent but there were plenty of other independents out there who traveled beyond the states they immediately bordered for games.

They just seem highly unlikely to be where they are today.

Maybe it just comes down to a few really good coaching hires over the decades.

Easy answer. Knute Rockne.

He was responsible for:

-"Win one for the Gipper"

-The Four Horseman

-The "Notre Dame Shift"

-Barnstorming

-"Subway Alumni"

-Intersectional rivalry with USC

-Notre Dame Stadium

Rockne was an innovator and a marketing genius.

He(and ND) were the face of college football, did much to popularize the sport and won...a lot.

He emphasized and highlighted that a bunch of working class Irish Catholic guys at little 'ole ND were beating up on the (Protestant) big boys. That opened up the Catholic high school recruiting pipelines.

Had a Hollywood movie made of his life in 1940 (Rockne died in a plane crash in 1931) staring Pat OBrien and Ronald Reagan.

(During his playing days as an ND end, it was his idea to use the little known forward pass to lead unknown upstart ND to shock powerhouse Army 35-13 in 1913. People started throwing the ball after that. They also started to pay attention to ND.)

He started and is largely responsible for ND's football success .

Those after him built on what he did.

Without Knute Rockne ND is currently more like St.Norbert College.

It's not just Knute Rockne. ND didn't have a losing record in a season until 1933. They always just won.

Funny statistical quirk:

ND has 14 losing seasons out of 117
ND has 14 unbeaten seasons out of 117

I'm not certain, but I don't think any other school can claim something that impressive.

Whoops, Michigan has 16 losing seasons and 17 unbeaten seasons, but 2 of those unbeaten seasons had 3 ties each. 9-0-3 one year, and 3-0-3 back in the early days of CFB. ND doesn't have any unbeaten season with more than 1 tie.

Rockne took everything to another level.

They haven't made any movies about Jesse Harper (prior ND coach), to my knowledge.

(03-29-2024 10:13 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 10:04 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(03-29-2024 09:31 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  People like the racist mascot?

Hibernians aren't a race.

Catholics were making fun of Irish Protestants when they made the logo and mascot.

Irish Protestants aren't a race but you understood what I meant.

Anti-Protestants Sentiment is a mouthful when I can shorten it to racism.

It's actually not "racism" as Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants are the same exact "race". It's something far worse, it's a religious war that's still kind of simmering all these decades, even centuries later, and probably not a great topic for this forum. As for the suitability of the actual mascot? It's a irishman with a Catholic symbol on his hat, aka a "fighting Irish", it seems quite appropriate to me.