VCU made the right decision to not start football. The expense would have hurt their basketball program. They would have had to buy the City Stadium property and demolished the old stadium to build a more modern facility.

(04-17-2024 09:55 AM)ShakeNBake Wrote:  VCU made the right decision to not start football. The expense would have hurt their basketball program. They would have had to buy the City Stadium property and demolished the old stadium to build a more modern facility.

I think too many schools have made the mistake of adding football and/or moving up to FBS. With the increase in costs from NIL and pay for play, the cost-benefit is just going to keep getting worse.

But VCU does look like their old Sun Belt partners who added football and moved into FBS.

(04-17-2024 11:13 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-17-2024 09:55 AM)ShakeNBake Wrote:  VCU made the right decision to not start football. The expense would have hurt their basketball program. They would have had to buy the City Stadium property and demolished the old stadium to build a more modern facility.

I think too many schools have made the mistake of adding football and/or moving up to FBS. With the increase in costs from NIL and pay for play, the cost-benefit is just going to keep getting worse.

But VCU does look like their old Sun Belt partners who added football and moved into FBS.

I agree with both points.

(04-17-2024 09:26 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 05:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  I have to think any invitation came with the prerequisite to increase capacity at Cary Field, which would have been ~15k during that era.

UR couldn’t get the city to renovate City Stadium, can anyone? Both schools wanted 1-A, which is why they left the SoCon. I’ve heard UR aspired for the ACC, but never that there was any reciprocation.

Seems to me that either Richmond school could much more easily spend their way into the Big East than anything above the Sun Belt in FBS.

This doesn't have anything to do with the Big East...

Both schools have money, but consider VCU's endowment: "The summary of the endowments includes not only VCU, but also all of the related entities as well as the health system, which totaled $2.6B."

VCU is really increasing their research and I can see them being more in line with northeastern universities like Northeastern, or dare I say BU or NYU, while George Mason is more similar to JMU.

UR is more like northeastern private liberal arts schools.

It was a mistake for schools not adding or upgrade their facilities to move up. Going into an FBS conference? You get more money then you do in FCS.

(04-16-2024 01:48 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 01:40 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 12:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 12:17 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  At this point, what is holding them back from launching football and heading to FBS as quickly as possible? Institutionally, they resemble academically superior versions of recent and pending FBS startups and move-ups (e.g., Kennesaw, Ga State, UTSA, etc.). I'd wager decently that VCU would be in the AAC now if they had started football even just 10 years ago.

And despite all the impending doom for the G5, we are still seeing schools move up from FCS - even long-term, committed FCS members like Delaware, who moved up to the least stable conference.

So, why are they sticking with non-football status? Strategically? Financially? Legally?

Football is expensive, and not cost-effective for them. George Mason invests in their riught wing law school and economics department. Not saying that as a slam--they realized that they were within commuting distance of Capitol Hill, that there was a pool of right-leaning law types and economics types that they could chase and build a brand with. "Come teach here on Tuesdays Wednesdays Thurdsays, talk to Congressmen and CSPAN and CNN on Mondays and Fridays." That let them build a top 50 law school and an economics department with a couple of Economics Nobel PRize winners on the back of a (25 years ago when I went there) completely nondescript regional commuter school.

That gets them more attention and more prestige than William and Mary's FCS team, or James MAdison's or East Carolina's FBS teams.

VCU, the bang-for-the-buck is in their basketball program.

I think both have studied it and I think Mason came closer to developing a program when they were in the CAA. I’m not sure that has anything to do with their law school. Virginia has four universities ranked within the top 50 national law schools - UVA, W&M, W&L and Mason - so you have two there with high ranking law schools and undergrad (UVA and W&M) and also have D1 football. So to say Mason made an either/or for football because of their law school is a little weak, particularly in any comparison to W&M.

William and MAry was founded in 1693.
Washington and Lee was founded after the Civil War.
George Mason was a UVA branch campus that became its own college in 1972.

Yes, George Mason chose "rightwing law school and economics department" as their ticket, over "I-AA college football"

Ha ha! Rightwing?

As a graduate of George Mason University and its economics department, I promise you that the school is not rightwing.

As for football, Mason has football. The Patriots have a club football program that should remain a club football program.

I have also lived in Richmond, taken classes at VCU, and feel strongly that VCU does not benefit from a football program.

(04-17-2024 09:53 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  It was a mistake for schools not adding or upgrade their facilities to move up. Going into an FBS conference? You get more money then you do in FCS.

The last I checked, VCU's endowment was between the University of Missouri's and the University of Kansas' endowment.

Trying to equate athletics with the mission of a university is a poor argument.

Founding Big Ten member, the University of Chicago may have rightly de-emphasized athletics. VCU and George Mason University may have rightly followed the Maroons' lead.

(04-17-2024 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-17-2024 09:26 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 05:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  I have to think any invitation came with the prerequisite to increase capacity at Cary Field, which would have been ~15k during that era.

UR couldn’t get the city to renovate City Stadium, can anyone? Both schools wanted 1-A, which is why they left the SoCon. I’ve heard UR aspired for the ACC, but never that there was any reciprocation.

Seems to me that either Richmond school could much more easily spend their way into the Big East than anything above the Sun Belt in FBS.

This doesn't have anything to do with the Big East...

Both schools have money, but consider VCU's endowment: "The summary of the endowments includes not only VCU, but also all of the related entities as well as the health system, which totaled $2.6B."

VCU is really increasing their research and I can see them being more in line with northeastern universities like Northeastern, or dare I say BU or NYU, while George Mason is more similar to JMU.

UR is more like northeastern private liberal arts schools.

The University of Richmond, William & Mary, and Wake Forest are similar universities.

(04-16-2024 03:01 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 01:30 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Further to the point about VCU: It’s a land-locked campus with only one relatively nearby stadium that would even rise to the level of a temporary FCS home. There’s also budget and Title IX considerations. A decent portion of the fanbase are outright hostile to the thought of adding football. And it doesn’t appreciably change their conference affiliation prospects — in fact, arguably, it hurts them (UMass is leaving the A-10 for the MAC and Charlotte left the A-10 for CUSA before recently joining a neutered AAC.
My guess is VCU would rate an invitation to the AAC now but wouldn’t look for one unless the A-10 implodes, and I’d be shocked it they’d go through all the financial and logistical rigamarole to stand up an FBS program so they could … join the AAC.

As for Mason, they have their own land-use issues. Plus the DMV is a tough nut to crack and it’s never been a strong college football market. Mason realistically is a CAA-level athletic program that got enough success out of Coach L to ride it into the A-10, and quite frankly that’s probably their ceiling barring a massive sea change out there.

Well done (although you were little rough on the American

Would you say GMU is definitely last among the four schools in terms of fan support?

As far as VCU and football goes (or rather doesn't go), I wonder how much Richmond having a "D1" program since the 1950's impacted VCU's decision not to go pursue a similar path

When schools had to pick between 1A and 1AA in the late 1970s (?), William & Mary, James Madison, VMI, Appalachian State, and Richmond chose 1AA.

Schools like Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Virginia Tech (VPI), and East Carolina choose 1A.

VCU is an amalgam of a few colleges in the area. VCU absorbed the Medical College of Virginia fairly recently (in the late 1980s?). From the start, VCU had a different mission.

Mason is the largest public university in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

(04-16-2024 04:04 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  Doesn't Mason have a club football team?

In any case, the propsed cricket stadium (future home of Masom baseball) got rejected.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gmu-cr...r-BB1kJ4AG

Yes.

When I attended Mason, I used to drive to the Maryland campus to watch college football. It was the Duffner years, and Maryland wasn't very good.

(04-16-2024 03:14 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 03:08 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Fun fact: when Mason enlisted a consultant to make its case for I-AA football, the consultant noted the lack of available I-AA opponents in the region, which included Georgetown, Howard and Towson. Instead, they recommended a JMU/W&M sized program, and that's what fell one vote short.

What year was that? Hate it didn't pass.

If Mason were to field a team, it would have been under the school's last athletic director, Brad Edwards. Brad is currently the Director of the NFL Players Association (and Washington Redskin Hall of Famer).

He was also my childhood neighbor.

(04-18-2024 02:25 AM)chess Wrote:  

(04-17-2024 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-17-2024 09:26 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 05:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  I have to think any invitation came with the prerequisite to increase capacity at Cary Field, which would have been ~15k during that era.

UR couldn’t get the city to renovate City Stadium, can anyone? Both schools wanted 1-A, which is why they left the SoCon. I’ve heard UR aspired for the ACC, but never that there was any reciprocation.

Seems to me that either Richmond school could much more easily spend their way into the Big East than anything above the Sun Belt in FBS.

This doesn't have anything to do with the Big East...

Both schools have money, but consider VCU's endowment: "The summary of the endowments includes not only VCU, but also all of the related entities as well as the health system, which totaled $2.6B."

VCU is really increasing their research and I can see them being more in line with northeastern universities like Northeastern, or dare I say BU or NYU, while George Mason is more similar to JMU.

UR is more like northeastern private liberal arts schools.

The University of Richmond, William & Mary, and Wake Forest are similar universities.

Not so much anymore as Wake has a four year medical school and both Wake and W&M are R2 universities.

If you want to compare UR to southern schools look no further than former SoCon mates Davidson and Furman. Both UR and Furman have Baptist roots.

(04-16-2024 03:22 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 12:17 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  At this point, what is holding them back from launching football and heading to FBS as quickly as possible? Institutionally, they resemble academically superior versions of recent and pending FBS startups and move-ups (e.g., Kennesaw, Ga State, UTSA, etc.). I'd wager decently that VCU would be in the AAC now if they had started football even just 10 years ago.

And despite all the impending doom for the G5, we are still seeing schools move up from FCS - even long-term, committed FCS members like Delaware, who moved up to the least stable conference.

So, why are they sticking with non-football status? Strategically? Financially? Legally?

IMO, it’s a combination of strategy and finances. Starting a college football program doesn’t make sense for GMU or VCU.

There are already plenty of college football teams in Virginia. There are five FBS (UVa, VT, JMU, ODU & Liberty), plus another five FCS (W&M, Hampton, Norfolk, Richmond & VMI) programs. Football, especially FBS/G5, is a huge financial burden on students (JMU and ODU institutional subsidies are massive). Why start a program that will be a major expense to students? Why would football help GMU or VCU differentiate themselves from other universities?

In addition, VCU and GMU have established themselves in a strong basketball-first conference…A10. If their basketball programs continue to gain recognition, their desired destinations can change to the Big East…another basketball-first conference with higher branding and revenue potential. VCU’s long history of basketball success probably gives it an outside shot at the Big East.

FTR:

ODU Subsidy - 31M
UVA Subsidy - 24M

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/234076

Also:

VCU Subsidy - 32M
GMU Subsidy - 24M

JMU's is high but it's all accounting smoke and mirrors, both their subsidy and overall budget size.

(04-18-2024 02:16 AM)chess Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 01:48 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 01:40 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 12:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(04-16-2024 12:17 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  At this point, what is holding them back from launching football and heading to FBS as quickly as possible? Institutionally, they resemble academically superior versions of recent and pending FBS startups and move-ups (e.g., Kennesaw, Ga State, UTSA, etc.). I'd wager decently that VCU would be in the AAC now if they had started football even just 10 years ago.

And despite all the impending doom for the G5, we are still seeing schools move up from FCS - even long-term, committed FCS members like Delaware, who moved up to the least stable conference.

So, why are they sticking with non-football status? Strategically? Financially? Legally?

Football is expensive, and not cost-effective for them. George Mason invests in their riught wing law school and economics department. Not saying that as a slam--they realized that they were within commuting distance of Capitol Hill, that there was a pool of right-leaning law types and economics types that they could chase and build a brand with. "Come teach here on Tuesdays Wednesdays Thurdsays, talk to Congressmen and CSPAN and CNN on Mondays and Fridays." That let them build a top 50 law school and an economics department with a couple of Economics Nobel PRize winners on the back of a (25 years ago when I went there) completely nondescript regional commuter school.

That gets them more attention and more prestige than William and Mary's FCS team, or James MAdison's or East Carolina's FBS teams.

VCU, the bang-for-the-buck is in their basketball program.

I think both have studied it and I think Mason came closer to developing a program when they were in the CAA. I’m not sure that has anything to do with their law school. Virginia has four universities ranked within the top 50 national law schools - UVA, W&M, W&L and Mason - so you have two there with high ranking law schools and undergrad (UVA and W&M) and also have D1 football. So to say Mason made an either/or for football because of their law school is a little weak, particularly in any comparison to W&M.

William and MAry was founded in 1693.
Washington and Lee was founded after the Civil War.
George Mason was a UVA branch campus that became its own college in 1972.

Yes, George Mason chose "rightwing law school and economics department" as their ticket, over "I-AA college football"

Ha ha! Rightwing?

As a graduate of George Mason University and its economics department, I promise you that the school is not rightwing.

Oh calm down. A department where James Buchanan and Walter Williams are prized stars rather than slight embarrassments is a different environment than most universities. That environment was used as a recruiting tool to get faculty that, in a perfect world, would have been strong candidates for a UVA professorship, but since they were somewhat right-of-center, maybe "weren't a good fit." Mason courted those guys, and raised the profile of the department and the school.

If you graduated GMU economics, you should know about Comparative Advantage.

Notice that people upthread are comparing George Mason to William & Mary and Washington & Lee and saying why can't George Mason do FCS if they're doing FCS. If The George Mason administration hasn't made a strategic choice to chase right-leaning faculty, they would not be in a conversation with those schools.

I don’t understand why it’s an issue to have a position to lean right when so much of academia leans left.

But back to the thread, it has zero to do with whether Mason has football. They came close but just missed. It’s a tougher sell in northeastern markets - DC, Philly, NY - most schools just don’t have the interest level. Much like GW who dropped it. And Georgetown plays in a 3,000 seat “stadium”.

Also, I believe you’re the one who started the comparison with W&M. There is actually very little comparison between the two. Your better comparisons are VCU and ODU. That’s your peer base in Virginia.

The school I wish would add football from a CAA perspective is UNCW.

(04-18-2024 09:39 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  The school I wish would add football from a CAA perspective is UNCW.

ECU would LOVE that!

(04-18-2024 09:39 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I don’t understand why it’s an issue to have a position to lean right when so much of academia leans left.

But back to the thread, it has zero to do with whether Mason has football. They came close but just missed. It’s a tougher sell in northeastern markets - DC, Philly, NY - most schools just don’t have the interest level. Much like GW who dropped it. And Georgetown plays in a 3,000 seat “stadium”.

Also, I believe you’re the one who started the comparison with W&M. There is actually very little comparison between the two. Your better comparisons are VCU and ODU. That’s your peer base in Virginia.

The school I wish would add football from a CAA perspective is UNCW.

He definitely sounds like he is saying it with a bit of a snide tone (ie, otherwise he would use "conservative" instead of "right-wing"), but his basic point is that they differentiated, like Denver emphasizes skiing, Rice baseball, Northern Arizona cross-country, Johns Hopkins lacrosse and Denver and several MAC schools ice hockey.

(04-18-2024 09:39 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I don’t understand why it’s an issue to have a position to lean right when so much of academia leans left.

That's why George Mason had an opening. Scholars with good credentials, whose politics weren't super welcome on elite campuses, George Mason courted them. So they got scholars who, normally, would have gone to institutions higher on the food chain. That allowed Mason to boost itself up the food chain a bit, by dominating that niche.

Just like, back in the days of segregation, Howard could punch above its weight because black scholars weren't welcomed elsewhere. It's not the same thing, but it's a little bit (2%? 5%?) the same thing.

FCS football wasn't going to do that for George Mason. Towson has FCS football. Mason wouldn't trade the Scalia Law School for ODU's or James Madison's FBS status, or Kennesaw State's or Middle Tennessee's or Akron's or Western Michigan's -- and it wouldn't make sense for them to do so.

^ why would they have to trade it?

(04-18-2024 11:12 AM)esayem Wrote:  ^ why would they have to trade it?

Theoretically if they could wave a magic wand. They can't.

But the point is that there's only so much money, administration attention, donor support, political support etc.

They probably could have started a football program. It would have been a financial drain, but plenty of schools do it.

They focused on leveraging their NoVa location, and going against the ideological grain of most of academia. It worked. I'm sure there's a Louisiana or Texas or Oklahoma state school that's mediocre overall but has an amazing petrochemical engineering program for similar reasons.

People look at Old Dominion and James MAdison and ask "why not George Mason", when it's just as relevant to look at Stony Brook or Albany or Towson, from the FCS ranks, or UMKC or UNO or SIU-Edwardsville or Missouri-St Louis or UT-Dallas or UT-ARlington, in terms of "4 year state commuter college in or adjacent to a major city"