Interesting thread. Frank has provided a WEALTH of very good information.

This is off topic but the key to any further expansion is how do you maximize the NE TV sets. That means obvioulsy ND but also SU, RU, and CT - are gold mines for these conference networks.

There really isn't a way for the BE to take any BCS school - unless BOTH ND AND PSU pledge to join a 'BE'. This would allow other dominos to fall into place so that the BE could - 'theoretically' - leverage all of the major 1A BCS teams and most popular NE teams in the SAME conference combined with the HUGE TV market to get huge money. This was outlined by Omnicarrier more than a year ago. Very interesting and outside the box idea but unfortunately the chances of it happening are very very close to 0.

Since this scenerio is unfortunately unrealistic, then it has to eventually be Plan B.

Having said that (about the NE TV markets), I still think if the Big 10 doesn't take a swipe at these markets for #12 that the ACC will DEFINITELY look at expanding into the NE - AGAIN - even if it means going to 14 and yes, I realize how 'unrealistic' that is to most people.

Hoquista Wrote:Having said that (about the NE TV markets), I still think if the Big 10 doesn't take a swipe at these markets for #12 that the ACC will DEFINITELY look at expanding into the NE - AGAIN - even if it means going to 14 and yes, I realize how 'unrealistic' that is to most people.

I think it's very unlikely but not out of the question. There's a point of diminishing returns once you get past 12 conference members (since you're getting the maximum split of conference championship game revenue at that membership level). However, the ACC as currently constituted isn't ever going to be the dominant force of the SEC or Big Ten (with or without ND), so it's not that crazy to think that the way to put the conference further on the map would be to add both Syracuse and Rutgers. When you combine those 2 with BC and Maryland (and add in relatively close Virginia and Virginia Tech), you pretty much own the East Coast (with the exception of Penn State).

Frank the Tank Wrote:

Hoquista Wrote:Having said that (about the NE TV markets), I still think if the Big 10 doesn't take a swipe at these markets for #12 that the ACC will DEFINITELY look at expanding into the NE - AGAIN - even if it means going to 14 and yes, I realize how 'unrealistic' that is to most people.

I think it's very unlikely but not out of the question. There's a point of diminishing returns once you get past 12 conference members (since you're getting the maximum split of conference championship game revenue at that membership level). However, the ACC as currently constituted isn't ever going to be the dominant force of the SEC or Big Ten (with or without ND), so it's not that crazy to think that the way to put the conference further on the map would be to add both Syracuse and Rutgers. When you combine those 2 with BC and Maryland (and add in relatively close Virginia and Virginia Tech), you pretty much own the East Coast (with the exception of Penn State).

Frank,

I should have expanded on that idea but I agree with you in one sense. In order for expansion beyond 12 to work, the ACC would absolutely REQUIRE two things at a minimum:

1 - an ACC network - like the BTN
2 - expansion with those two teams - to be financially worthwhile - the ACC would NEED a fully funded ACCN in those 'expansion states'.

I mean, the addition of 3 teams (Miami, VT, and BC) yielded $30 million but in the day of conference TV networks, it's possible that a populous state where a conference TV network in on basic - like the BTN - to make expansion worthwhile by determining the TV market for that state and the money charged per month by the BTN as a baseline financial estimate.

If those two things that I list above don't happen, then I would say that the money definitely won't be there.

Expansion beyond 12 teams is risky at best. It's easy to lose contact with the teams in your own conference with 12 and with 14 YUCK (Carolina hasn't played Florida State in 4 years).
Why would the Big 10 want to trade Penn State for BC? Demographics!
Catholics, for the first time in 2007, outnumbered protestants in the United States. Most of the Catholics in the U.S. are in the Midwest and in the Northeast. Notre Dame and Boston College are the only Catholic schools that are playing division I football in the country. Notre Dame belongs in the Big Ten and BC is the perfect eastern partner. There is no other school in the east that would enhance the big east more than BC.

XLance Wrote:Expansion beyond 12 teams is risky at best. It's easy to lose contact with the teams in your own conference with 12 and with 14 YUCK (Carolina hasn't played Florida State in 4 years).

There are a lot of things in play here. For example, with the contracts signed by the Big Ten and SEC, how does the ACC increase their revenue streams? The Big Ten and SEC will be making $12-$15 million just from their TV contracts. The ACCs TV contracts are about $6.5. The ACC might be able to get into a bidding war with ABC/ESPN and FOX (or others?) but who knows? Don't you think that everything will be on the table for discussion as to ways to catch up to the Big 10 and SEC's revenue streams?

XLance Wrote:Why would the Big 10 want to trade Penn State for BC?
Demographics!
Catholics, for the first time in 2007, outnumbered protestants in the United States. Most of the Catholics in the U.S. are in the Midwest and in the Northeast. Notre Dame and Boston College are the only Catholic schools that are playing division I football in the country. Notre Dame belongs in the Big Ten and BC is the perfect eastern partner.

Which do you think would give the Big 10 more ratings - ND/PSU or ND/BC?
Do you know how much more $$$ PSU gives the Big 10 than would BC? PSU and ND are far and away the most popular teams in the Northeast!

Season ending games of OSU-Michigan and PSU-ND would be a ratings bonzanza from the midwest to the NE!

XLance Wrote:There is no other school in the east that would enhance the big east more than BC.

The correct answer is Penn State. Their huge fan base and popularity would help the BE in many regards - they would travel to all road BE FB games (sans USF), would significantly improve the FB contract and bowl games, and give the BE a 'name' team. All of these things would be significantly better with PSU instead of BC.

Lord please don't alloweth the ACC to go beyond 12.......

firmbizzle Wrote:With Syracuse and Rutgets being so bad, what are the chances that the Big 10 still wants them?

Why not go after UConn?

esayem Wrote:Lord please don't alloweth the ACC to go beyond 12.......

Will it happen - who knows but as I said, the ACC - like any business - will consider ALL options to try and boost their revenue streams considering how much more the 'competition' is getting.

Wilkie01 Wrote:

firmbizzle Wrote:With Syracuse and Rutgets being so bad, what are the chances that the Big 10 still wants them?

Why not go after UConn?

They would have to change the bylaws. All states must be contiguous.

firmbizzle Wrote:

Wilkie01 Wrote:

firmbizzle Wrote:With Syracuse and Rutgets being so bad, what are the chances that the Big 10 still wants them?

Why not go after UConn?

They would have to change the bylaws. All states must be contiguous.

They will have to pick up Cuse first then Conn so they can be the Big Twelve-teen like the Big Ten-eleven now. They seem to like that odd number.

Hoquista, Notre Dame will not join the Big 10 by themselves. And yes Penn State/Notre Dame is a much better match-up then Norte Dame/Boston College, but Notre Dame won't join the Big 10 by themselves.
So the question for the big 10 is; who can generate more revenue, the Big 10 with Penn State, or the Big 10 with Notre Dame and Boston College. Notre Dame was able to parlay the "religion card" into becoming what they are today. But demographics have changed, Notre Dame is no longer the Catholic underdog standing up against the protestant majority and they are quickly losing their identity. That doesn't mean the the Big 10 is opposed to playing the religion card in a race to capture more and more television viewers.
Remember, Notre Dame will not join the big 10 by themselves.

Notre Dame will not join the Big 10. If Notre Dame wanted to join an all-sports conference they had the option to, instead they joined the BE for non-football. If they would have formed their own league it probably would have included seven of the following and then some Catholic hoops schools to fill in for any academies:

BC, Rutgers, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, Navy, Penn State, Army

Even this would restrict their schedule.

XLance Wrote:Hoquista, Notre Dame will not join the Big 10 by themselves. And yes Penn State/Notre Dame is a much better match-up then Norte Dame/Boston College, but Notre Dame won't join the Big 10 by themselves.
So the question for the big 10 is; who can generate more revenue, the Big 10 with Penn State, or the Big 10 with Notre Dame and Boston College. Notre Dame was able to parlay the "religion card" into becoming what they are today. But demographics have changed, Notre Dame is no longer the Catholic underdog standing up against the protestant majority and they are quickly losing their identity. That doesn't mean the the Big 10 is opposed to playing the religion card in a race to capture more and more television viewers.
Remember, Notre Dame will not join the big 10 by themselves.

There is no way the Big 10 would trade PSU for BC so they could ultimately get ND. If I'm the ACC, I make that trade (PSU for BC) in a heartbeat. PSU brings SO MUCH more value than BC.

The Big 10 won't make special deals for ND. The Big Ten is making the most money - along with the SEC - of any conference.

ND has plenty of options should they want to end their independence (and I'm not saying they will). Just about any conference would take them even if it meant going to 13 teams.

XLance Wrote:Hoquista, Notre Dame will not join the Big 10 by themselves. And yes Penn State/Notre Dame is a much better match-up then Norte Dame/Boston College, but Notre Dame won't join the Big 10 by themselves.
So the question for the big 10 is; who can generate more revenue, the Big 10 with Penn State, or the Big 10 with Notre Dame and Boston College. Notre Dame was able to parlay the "religion card" into becoming what they are today. But demographics have changed, Notre Dame is no longer the Catholic underdog standing up against the protestant majority and they are quickly losing their identity. That doesn't mean the the Big 10 is opposed to playing the religion card in a race to capture more and more television viewers.
Remember, Notre Dame will not join the big 10 by themselves.

I'm not exactly sure why ND wouldn't join the Big Ten by themselves. What is the basis for that? I can understand the reasoning that they wouldn't want to join any conference at all. However, it makes no sense to join the Big Ten with another school to push it up to 13 teams as opposed to 12 teams, which means ND's 1/12th split of the conference revenue becomes a 1/13th split. ND is not tied to BC at all other than the face-value Catholic connection - the Irish have been more than willing to let BC drop off the schedule, but they would never give up games against Michigan, USC, and Navy. Before Penn State joined the Big Ten, Notre Dame was one of its fiercest rivals. The only thing ND cares about is itself - they aren't ever going to make a decision based on what another school does, ESPECIALLY BC. Have you met any ND alums? Do you realize that ND's AD would be sent through the reamer by that constituency if he based a conference decision on whether BC (who they call "Backup College") comes along? If there's one school that absolutely wants BC to be perceived as inferior, it's ND. They are never going to do any favors for that school.

Hoquista Wrote:Having said that (about the NE TV markets), I still think if the Big 10 doesn't take a swipe at these markets for #12 that the ACC will DEFINITELY look at expanding into the NE - AGAIN - even if it means going to 14 and yes, I realize how 'unrealistic' that is to most people.

Since this is a bigeast board, shouldnt the discussion be more of how the BE should go AFTER other schools and not what it will do when the other BCS conferences come knocking? I'd love to see Penn st but realize that wont happen anymore than ND will. However, i think BC and UMD are a possibility. This could become more likely if B10 somehow gets nebraska or Missouri from the B12. The B12 replaces one of them with Arkansas. The SEC in turn goes for Clemson or maybe Gatech or Miami. Better yet the SEC expands to 14 and takes all 3. The ACC becomes unstable. Maybe even causing UVA and VTECH to consider the BE as its 11th and 12th members. The ACC is then reduced to the carolina league(PLUS 2) adding ECU, Charlotte and Memphis! HEY IT COULD HAPPEN ! couldnt it?

gosports1 Wrote:Since this is a bigeast board, shouldnt the discussion be more of how the BE should go AFTER other schools and not what it will do when the other BCS conferences come knocking?

Would you as a business co-owner (see PSU, BC, Maryland, etc) move to another business that is going to give you less money, prestige, and visibility in the marketplace?

CUSA schools will be there IF and WHEN the BE makes a split. There is no rush - unless you count the BE 'split clause' - to add any school.

Hoquista Wrote:

gosports1 Wrote:Since this is a bigeast board, shouldnt the discussion be more of how the BE should go AFTER other schools and not what it will do when the other BCS conferences come knocking?

Would you as a business co-owner (see PSU, BC, Maryland, etc) move to another business that is going to give you less money, prestige, and visibility in the marketplace?

CUSA schools will be there IF and WHEN the BE makes a split. There is no rush - unless you count the BE 'split clause' - to add any school.

I understand your point, but i guess my real point is if the BE is going to get better and wants to compete with the big boys they need to think big. Penn st not happening. The others might. Times change, teams change. Was Vtech that prestiges 15 years ago?Are Miami and FSU as big a deal today as they were in the past?The BE needs to go back to the thinking that established the BE 30 years ago. The ACC, sec B10 b12 all had BB history yet today the BE is arguably the best in the country. Would the $ be lean at 1st? No doubt. Over time and with success that would change. The BE needs to think and act big or resign itself to be a mediocre FB conference that acts as a farm system for the other BCS conferences. Team up with the SEC and go after the ACC and go after them hard. What does the BE have to lose? The ACC and swofford tried to destroy the BE 5 years ago and failed. its time to return the favor.The Northeast needs a major FB conference that is committed to becoming strong. One that will be around for the longterm and not "rebuild" every 10 years due to another conferences decision to expand.If they want to be a winner they need to act like one

No matter how many times I ask (insert favorite actress here) for a date - she will always say no. No one is going to jump from an existing BCS conference to the BE based on 'what might be'. They would want definite numbers to justify their move.

I guess I am not as worried as some others about BE coaches leaving. It happens everywhere except at the upper echlon schools (ND, USC, etc). When I will start to worry is if an Edsell or Kelly leave for a mid- or bottom tier school in another BCS conference. That's when I know the BE is in for some serious trouble.

BE schools can show committments by increasing athletic budgets and perform on the field where is counts. They should also build the fanbase (and traveling fanbase), make the right hires for FB and BB, improve academically. They just aren't going to pull in someone from another BCS conference unless there is congressional action.

gosports1 Wrote:HEY IT COULD HAPPEN ! couldnt it?

No. There is a solid core group in the ACC that will not be unstable.