(06-22-2009 02:47 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 01:33 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  But IF one of UM, UCF, or ECU cannot get a majority of the football schools to vote for them, then AS MUCH as they may WANT to join, then they ain't coming either. Period.

And right now, obviously, they do not, otherwise the GOOJFC would be used or the league would be talking about expanding to 18 like in the Krocker model.

So it is just as illogical for you to say, "well if one of UM, UCF, or ECU could get the votes" as it is for me to say, "well if PSU or ND wants to join". A lot has got to happen BEFORE either scenario comes about.

I know that these types of threads are more or less just to pass the time during the offseason, but aren't you arguing just for the sake of arguing here? I mean, as an overstated analogy, I am just as likely to get a hummer from Catherine Zeta Jones as I am from a drugged out hooker. Neither is very likely, but only one of those unlikelihoods stems from my own desires.

And no, I'm not comparing UCF to a drugged out hooker, I'm just pointing out the reason why you can't equate two disparate groups. I think EVERY Big East fan would leap at the chance of seeing a Penn State, a Maryland or a Notre Dame join our conference over any team from C-USA. Does that really need to be stipulated?

USFFan

Apparently it does. Else why, "that is never going to happen" comments coupled with "let's just take one of the drugged out hookers and be done with it"?

But in all seriousness, your analogy is off base because you aren't marrying the drugged out hooker, are you? The attractive woman you are pursuing but who has rebuffed you a couple of times is the one you are eyeing for a long-term relationship, right?

Cheers,
Neil

(06-21-2009 09:07 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  And suppose in this round of negotiations, the Liberty goes to the Big East like it almost did last time without Memphis being a member? Of the three C-USA targets, I have made it clear on numerous occasions that I prefer the Tigers - mainly because I believe it is their TURN, of the non-auto bid BCS teams east of the Mississippi. But if the Liberty comes without them, don't you think their case for inclusion is considerably weakened?

Remember the last three Liberty Bowls could have been South Carolina vs. Rutgers (instead of Houston); Mississippi State vs. South Florida (instead of UCF); and Kentucky vs. WVU (instead of ECU).

I think you're a bit off there. The SEC got the spot that could have gone to the Big East. The president/director/top dude of the Liberty Bowl has said on many occasions they want to be affiliated with whatever conference Memphis is in (despite the fact we have never played in the bowl game). The time this was being discussed, the MWC had decided they could do better for their champion...CUSA had already renewed the contract...and the LB settled on the SEC even after the MWC came back on its hands and knees.

This potential change has been discussed for awhile among smaller groups of Memphis fans without hitting the main message boards. It just now hit the main Memphis board. Apparently, any discussions are being driven by prominant local businessmen (or businesspersons, if you prefer) that have a strong desire to see Memphis change its conference affiliation.

As they say...where there's smoke, there's fire. I don't know if this qualifies as smoke yet, but this issue has certainly been smouldering quietly for awhile. I won't predict that it's going anywhere, but I'm cautiosly optimistic. I actually wish the issue had remained quiet so the inevitable flame war could be avoided.

...if nothing else, it makes the offseason slightly more interesting!

Just for $hits & giggles, what kind of expansion fee would we seek from a Memphis, UCF or ECU?

Considering the current economic climate and shifting priorities on university campuses, ie not laying off professors & staff, can any of these schools afford what I predict would be a $5-$10 million in exit and entrance fees?

Memphis certainly is worthy of Big East membership and I would be jealous as an ECU fan, but you guys have certainly paid your dues. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but the best way to get a CUSA fanbase juiced is to float a joining a BCS conference rumor. I bet the fundraising increases with the excitement. Is Memphis trying to raise funds for a major project now or in the near future? Just curious.

(06-22-2009 03:01 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(06-21-2009 09:07 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  And suppose in this round of negotiations, the Liberty goes to the Big East like it almost did last time without Memphis being a member? Of the three C-USA targets, I have made it clear on numerous occasions that I prefer the Tigers - mainly because I believe it is their TURN, of the non-auto bid BCS teams east of the Mississippi. But if the Liberty comes without them, don't you think their case for inclusion is considerably weakened?

Remember the last three Liberty Bowls could have been South Carolina vs. Rutgers (instead of Houston); Mississippi State vs. South Florida (instead of UCF); and Kentucky vs. WVU (instead of ECU).

I think you're a bit off there. The SEC got the spot that could have gone to the Big East. The president/director/top dude of the Liberty Bowl has said on many occasions they want to be affiliated with whatever conference Memphis is in (despite the fact we have never played in the bowl game). The time this was being discussed, the MWC had decided they could do better for their champion...CUSA had already renewed the contract...and the LB settled on the SEC even after the MWC came back on its hands and knees.

Let me begin by saying I am not even sure the Big East is even trying to get the Liberty Bowl this time out. But last time out they were at the Liberty Bowl's request. And even after the SEC had agreed, negotiations were on-going with the Big East to be the "other" partner in the bowl.

Yes, the Memphis community rallied behind C-USA and won the day, as long as the SEC had the right to veto certain match-ups. Of course, back then, no one knew how good the Big East was going to be and the Big East wouldn't commit it's #3 to the Liberty since it didn't want to offend the Tire Bowl, which is in a better geographical location for most BE programs.

It's 4 years later and Memphis still hasn't sniffed a Liberty Bowl, the SEC opponent brings the crowds as well as the locals, and the C-USA champion hasn't been all that enticing in comparison with what the bowl could have seen - the match-ups listed above.

So while I have no doubt the Memphis community will again put up an effort if the Big East decides to go after C-USA's slot in that bowl game, there is no guarantee they will win this time. They might, but it isn't the slam dunk so many Tigers' fans believe.

Quote:This potential change has been discussed for awhile among smaller groups of Memphis fans without hitting the main message boards. It just now hit the main Memphis board. Apparently, any discussions are being driven by prominant local businessmen (or businesspersons, if you prefer) that have a strong desire to see Memphis change its conference affiliation.

As they say...where there's smoke, there's fire. I don't know if this qualifies as smoke yet, but this issue has certainly been smouldering quietly for awhile. I won't predict that it's going anywhere, but I'm cautiosly optimistic. I actually wish the issue had remained quiet so the inevitable flame war could be avoided.

...if nothing else, it makes the offseason slightly more interesting!

Perhaps. But I'd rather be talking about the upcoming football season. Damn GumpRob.

Cheers back at you
Neil

(06-22-2009 10:27 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 09:12 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 09:03 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-21-2009 04:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-21-2009 03:58 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  The only way Memphis joins the Big East, and I say this only half-joking, is to make a $10-15 million offer to buy out DePaul's seat at the table.

It might not take that much. I think an equitable agreement would be for Memphis to pay DePaul's exit fee, and their entrance fee for admittance. DePaul would get their fee to enter another conference, and we'd be in a more stable configuration...

I halfway understand the animosity toward DePaul on this board (believe me - I have a laundry list of complaints about the athletic department's moves over the years), but there's no amount of money right now that would get DePaul to willingly give up its place in the Big East. It's in a conference with its two biggest historical rivals (Marquette and Notre Dame) along with being associated with very similar urban Catholic universities with Big East membership, which is what the school has wanted for decades. This goes beyond sports - DePaul looked at Big East membership as a validation that it was a Catholic institution with national impact. As a result, moving to the Atlantic 10 or a different conference for almost purely basketball purposes is something that DePaul's administration would scoff at immediately - I cannot emphasize enough how important getting into the Big East in the wake of the ACC raid was for DePaul. Maybe you can ask DePaul in about 10 years or so if the basketball team continues to have winless seasons and there will be a change of heart from the administration at that point. However, there's NFW that DePaul is going to throw in the towel after 5 years (which is what people on this board are essentially asking the school to do).

I don't think anybody expects DePaul (or Marquette) to voluntarily leave the Big East.

The perfect solution from the BE FB standpoint would be for the league to agree to remove both schools to allow 2 all-sports members to come in and keep total at 16, but that of course seems an impossibility.

(Nothing against either of those schools, but in theory if anybody was going to be removed it would make sense to choose the 2 schools on the fringe of the conference geographically, and the 2 non-FB schools with the least amount of BE history and fewest ties.)

But again, I don't think that's within the realm of possibility.

If it DID ever happen for the sake of keeping the BE together and allowing the FB side to add 2, then Marquette and DePaul could reform the Great Midwest with a configuration like this:

Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis
Butler
Detroit
Creighton
Bradley
Drake

That would be an outstanding mid-west conference, would get multiple NCAA bids yearly, would be attractive from a TV standpoint, and would save on travel costs.

But I don't see the Big East BB schools being willing to jettison anybody at this point.

As an alum of two of the schools on your list, I would have to say that conference would suck. Looking past basketball, the budgets spent by the schools vary significantly. Drake has a hard time competing in the Valley, much less in your proposed glorified MCC. While small and private, Bradley has little in common with the other schools outside of Drake, being that neither is Catholic. Plus, Peoria is a relatively small city.

There no way a school like Depaul voluntarily leaves the BE without one big fat check (sames goes for SH, SJU and PC, for that matter) If would probably have to be in the $40+ million range for DePaul to even consider it. DePaul is probably earning almost $2 million more per year by being in the BE. Plus, its student body recruiting and academic image has increased.

I doubt kicking them out would happen either. ND fought for years to get MU in the BE. But for SJU screwing MU over in the early 90s, MU would have joined the BE with ND. GT and MU are sisters schools, with alums and former administrators of both schools on each other's boards, etc. Unless it was the only way to save the conference, I can't see the other Catholics turning on 2.

Despite what some think, both schools add something to the mix. MU has been 3rd in attendance in the BE every year (with over 16,000) and has been fairly successful in most sports. But for men's basketball, DePaul has enjoyed relative success too. Most importantly, DePaul brings a large market. And while the bball team blows, you are now getting BE games of the week on free tv in Chicago and Milwaukee.

Memphis adds a 9th game in football which is nice. But, it has the reputation of a glorified high school. It has regularly been in trouble with the NCAA. Its decent market, but not huge. And, it would probably not add much in terms of the tv contract, thereby causing the slices of pie for the other schools to get smaller.

Unless adding a school results in increase profit for the BE members, which I doubt, I just can't see it happening. I also think that if they went to 9, an eastern school like Temple would be more likely. Better market.

I nevr heard that ND wanted to bring Marquette with it whne it joined the BE. Whats the story behing that? What did St Johns do to screw them?

The bottomline is that it's not going to come down to what the "old" C-USA schools and what the "old" Big East schools want. It's going to come down to what's best for the current Big East conference.

(06-22-2009 03:01 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 02:47 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 01:33 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  But IF one of UM, UCF, or ECU cannot get a majority of the football schools to vote for them, then AS MUCH as they may WANT to join, then they ain't coming either. Period.

And right now, obviously, they do not, otherwise the GOOJFC would be used or the league would be talking about expanding to 18 like in the Krocker model.

So it is just as illogical for you to say, "well if one of UM, UCF, or ECU could get the votes" as it is for me to say, "well if PSU or ND wants to join". A lot has got to happen BEFORE either scenario comes about.

I know that these types of threads are more or less just to pass the time during the offseason, but aren't you arguing just for the sake of arguing here? I mean, as an overstated analogy, I am just as likely to get a hummer from Catherine Zeta Jones as I am from a drugged out hooker. Neither is very likely, but only one of those unlikelihoods stems from my own desires.

And no, I'm not comparing UCF to a drugged out hooker, I'm just pointing out the reason why you can't equate two disparate groups. I think EVERY Big East fan would leap at the chance of seeing a Penn State, a Maryland or a Notre Dame join our conference over any team from C-USA. Does that really need to be stipulated?

USFFan

Apparently it does. Else why, "that is never going to happen" comments coupled with "let's just take one of the drugged out hookers and be done with it"?

But in all seriousness, your analogy is off base because you aren't marrying the drugged out hooker, are you? The attractive woman you are pursuing but who has rebuffed you a couple of times is the one you are eyeing for a long-term relationship, right?

Cheers,
Neil

Given that every one of the so-called "BCS" conference has changed in membership in the last 30 years, I don't think marriage is a very good analogy for cohabitation in a conference. Then again, given the length of many marriages these days, it might not be too far off, either.

Regardless, my point is that I believe virtually every Cincinnati, Louisville and USF fan here would find Notre Dame, Penn State, Maryland, Boston College, Virginia Tech or Miami much more attractive than any C-USA team. I also don't think any of us believes they would accept an invitation. Many of us do, however, find the prospects of sharing a conference with said C-USA team to be preferable to being held hostage for OOC games. While I can certainly understand the interest in waiting for the perfect candidate, none of us knows what tomorrow will really bring. What if there's a playoff in five years? Does that throw out the advantages of being in a "BCS conference?" How does that change the way we think? If we keep waiting to be completely sure of our choice, the choice may ultimately not be ours to make. It's kind of like waiting for the perfect computer to be made. Every time you think it exists, there's a new one coming that will have slightly better features...

USFFan

(06-22-2009 03:38 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  The bottomline is that it's not going to come down to what the "old" C-USA schools and what the "old" Big East schools want. It's going to come down to what's best for the current Big East conference.

It's going to come down to money, pure and simple.

These stupid rumors pop up every summer. I wish John Marinatto would make a definitive statement upon taking office that the Big East is going to retain our current model for the next few years, will not even discuss the topic of expansion until the Spring Meetings in 2012, and any athletic director or football coach whining about scheduling a fifth non-conference game can either work harder or change jobs. That should calm this subject down for a while.

Why do some people assume every vote is evenly split between FB and non FB? I havent seen any evidence that ALL the FB schools want to add a new member and ALL the NONFB are oppossed. Even with the other "issues" of everyday conf lif, the FB/non FB distinction doesnt really play a part (ie depaul, marquette UConn, L'ville, WVU etc were all in favor of the LAX league even though they dont have a team) Neil, Frank you guys seem to have alot of knowledge and info, do you agree or am i totally off base?

(06-22-2009 04:05 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  These stupid rumors pop up every summer. I wish John Marinatto would make a definitive statement upon taking office that the Big East is going to retain our current model for the next few years, will not even discuss the topic of expansion until the Spring Meetings in 2012, and any athletic director or football coach whining about scheduling a fifth non-conference game can either work harder or change jobs. That should calm this subject down for a while.

Well, the new regime is a little over a week away!

(06-22-2009 03:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  Given that every one of the so-called "BCS" conference has changed in membership in the last 30 years, I don't think marriage is a very good analogy for cohabitation in a conference. Then again, given the length of many marriages these days, it might not be too far off, either.

Regardless, my point is that I believe virtually every Cincinnati, Louisville and USF fan here would find Notre Dame, Penn State, Maryland, Boston College, Virginia Tech or Miami much more attractive than any C-USA team. I also don't think any of us believes they would accept an invitation.

And that mindset is the reason why I make these posts. I don't think there is a strong possibility of it happening either. But I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility either. Most who respond in these posts are more like CC who simply say "it will never happen, period."

Quote:Many of us do, however, find the prospects of sharing a conference with said C-USA team to be preferable to being held hostage for OOC games.

Then why not simply schedule them OOC in home-and-home series and stop holding yourselves hostage? You do realize that ultimately it is your own AD offices that are holding you hostage, right?

Quote:While I can certainly understand the interest in waiting for the perfect candidate, none of us knows what tomorrow will really bring. What if there's a playoff in five years? Does that throw out the advantages of being in a "BCS conference?" How does that change the way we think?

Yes, and will that impact how ND, PSU, and Miami think?

One you didn't add, What if the new paradigm leaves all but the SEC, Big Ten, ND, and Texas so far behind that they can't catch up? How might that impact/affect the thinking of the ACC and the individual teams within it, our nearest geographical competitor?

What if both together happen? How does that impact the various players involved and how will it change their thinking?

Quote:If we keep waiting to be completely sure of our choice, the choice may ultimately not be ours to make. It's kind of like waiting for the perfect computer to be made. Every time you think it exists, there's a new one coming that will have slightly better features...

And at the risk of sounding elitist, are UCF, Memphis, and ECU going somewhere? As Frank likes to point out, college presidents tend to be risk-managers not risk-takers.

If they think it will be to their advantage to split and add one or more from C-USA or to expand to 18 with a program from C-USA and another non-BE football member then they will do so. Right now the football is fine with the Big East usually ranking third or fourth in Bowl revenues earned per team (although I am scared to see what this upcoming season brings) and the basketball is the best.

Where the league is shortchanged is in the football TV contract value. And adding one of the C-USA targets isn't going to make that a net plus for the current BE members.

The league needs to address internal issues to increase football profits at their own institutions (which means either stadium expansion and/or attendance increases by better scheduling or winning, like my Orange). And see where the landscape is heading, imho.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-22-2009 04:23 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  Right now the football is fine with the Big East usually ranking third or fourth in Bowl revenues earned per team (although I am scared to see what this upcoming season brings) and the basketball is the best.

Where the league is shortchanged is in the football TV contract value. And adding one of the C-USA targets isn't going to make that a net plus for the current BE members.

The league needs to address internal issues to increase football profits at their own institutions (which means either stadium expansion and/or attendance increases by better scheduling or winning, like my Orange). And see where the landscape is heading, imho.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil,
I enjoy your posts and respect your point of view. Fortunately for you your program doesn't have the scheduling issues that some in the conference. Chances are your schedule at Syracuse is set for a season or two. I really don't know the dynamics of your school's situation but I do know mine.

We can't continue to find 5 quality OOC opponents each season. As for scheduling CUSA, we've done that. We have two on our schedule this season because they are some of the ONLY schools that will agree to come to our place.

It's not a simple black and white issue. Many fans of "the old Big East programs" haven't had to survive without like UC, UofL and USF had to. The Old Big East fans are spoiled, used to silver BCS spoon. Unfortunately for UC, UofL and USF we haven't been cashing the big checks long enough to have the type of bank accounts we need to buy 5 OOC games each season.
CJ

As those SEC, BigTen and Big12 teams start paying MORE for those CUSA,MAC and SunBelt teams to come to their stadiums without areturn trip. The more you will see BE teams paying more for 1AA teams and signing more 1-1 deals with SBC and MAC teams and even those will be more difficult to get.
But we shall see with time. I do thnk that if the pressure is high enough the FB schools will come to terms and pick on ONE candidate.

As for the anology of Penn State, BC etc being going after a good looking girl that has rebuffed you before. Is actually more like going after a good looking married woman that is married to a sexier man with bigger pockets. Good luck breaking that up

(06-22-2009 01:43 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  As I have written before, the non BE football members were willing to be in a minority in the past to keep the football members in the league - otherwise they never would have talked the football schools into giving UConn and Nova the time required to get to 1A status (if the institutions decided to go that route - UConn said yes, Nova eventually declined).

Actually, all four I-AA schools were offered the option, with Georgetown and St. John's (which played football then) declining sooner and Villanova declining later. St. John's entertained some brief thoughts about upgrading (reportedly considering Shea Stadium as a game site) but it was short lived.

A few things:

Memphis would jump at the chance to move to the BE.

We do know that our "people" are agressively working the BE power brokers to make this happen.

The Liberty Bowl is tied to the conference Memphis is in. But there is no doubt they would like to have a BE v SEC matchup rather than a CUSA anything matchup.

If all it took to get in was a $5,000,000 fee Fred Smith would pull out his spare change purse and pay it by midnight tonight.

Our thinking has always been the unmanageble BE basketball configuration would implode causing a split of the BBall only.

(06-22-2009 05:41 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(06-22-2009 04:23 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  Right now the football is fine with the Big East usually ranking third or fourth in Bowl revenues earned per team (although I am scared to see what this upcoming season brings) and the basketball is the best.

Where the league is shortchanged is in the football TV contract value. And adding one of the C-USA targets isn't going to make that a net plus for the current BE members.

The league needs to address internal issues to increase football profits at their own institutions (which means either stadium expansion and/or attendance increases by better scheduling or winning, like my Orange). And see where the landscape is heading, imho.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil,
I enjoy your posts and respect your point of view. Fortunately for you your program doesn't have the scheduling issues that some in the conference. Chances are your schedule at Syracuse is set for a season or two. I really don't know the dynamics of your school's situation but I do know mine.

We can't continue to find 5 quality OOC opponents each season. As for scheduling CUSA, we've done that. We have two on our schedule this season because they are some of the ONLY schools that will agree to come to our place.

It's not a simple black and white issue. Many fans of "the old Big East programs" haven't had to survive without like UC, UofL and USF had to. The Old Big East fans are spoiled, used to silver BCS spoon. Unfortunately for UC, UofL and USF we haven't been cashing the big checks long enough to have the type of bank accounts we need to buy 5 OOC games each season.
CJ

Sorry, not buying it for a minute.

You have both Kentucky and Memphis that will play the Cards every year, if you guys would only let them in the latter case. I will never understand why the Tigers are good enough for being in the Big East but not good enough to sign a long-term series with.

In the interest of getting a 7th home-body-bag game you will always have to get a buy-game rather than sign a home-and-home.

That leaves you with 2 games to actually find home-and-home with a mid-level or a low-level BCS program or a high MAC squad. If your AD office can't accomplish that then they are overrated as an AD Office.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-22-2009 06:18 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  As those SEC, BigTen and Big12 teams start paying MORE for those CUSA,MAC and SunBelt teams to come to their stadiums without areturn trip. The more you will see BE teams paying more for 1AA teams and signing more 1-1 deals with SBC and MAC teams and even those will be more difficult to get.
But we shall see with time. I do thnk that if the pressure is high enough the FB schools will come to terms and pick on ONE candidate.

CubanBull,

I am calling this bullcrap, just like I did Cardinal Jim.

You have Miami currently signed up for a 6-game series and the Bulls could just as easily have kept the UCF series on-going. That accounts for 2 of the 5 games right there.

The Bulls will always need to have a home-buy-game in order to get the 7th game, regardless of whether or not there is a 9th member. If you can't afford the asking price like West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, and the rest, then you will simply need to give up that game. But again, having 9 members in the league isn't changing that.

As for the other 2 OOC games, if you can't get mid-level, low-level BCS programs or upper level MAC squads to come to Tampa, there's something wrong with your AD office.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-22-2009 09:44 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  A few things:

Memphis would jump at the chance to move to the BE.

We do know that our "people" are agressively working the BE power brokers to make this happen.

The Liberty Bowl is tied to the conference Memphis is in. But there is no doubt they would like to have a BE v SEC matchup rather than a CUSA anything matchup.

If all it took to get in was a $5,000,000 fee Fred Smith would pull out his spare change purse and pay it by midnight tonight.

Our thinking has always been the unmanageble BE basketball configuration would implode causing a split of the BBall only.

One other thought about the "people" working on behalf of Memphis...by most accounts, the Liberty Bowl leadership is part of that group.