If they consider Villanova, why not take UMass, a more UConn-like situation. You have to consider a new large market. And they do have a lot of sports that can help in our TV network.

For those that dislike Villanova so much, but pine for the usual suspects--you might take note that last year Sagarin had Villanova ranked at #30 in the final polls ahead of such teams as :

#31 FSU
#32 WVU
#38 Navy
#39 USF
#41 Rutgers
#44 BC
#51 ECU
#53 Houston

this from a team with around 20 less scholarship athletes, so they must be doing something right. Many keep saying what the wannabees could do if they were just given the chance to move up. Well then how much more might Villanova which is already a member of the Big East be able to do? Right now they might be favored to beat on the field every one of the CUSA/MAC teams people here are so desperate to add.

(07-04-2010 05:46 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 05:34 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  There are examples of what Villanova can be if they could get the facilities to do it.

BC is a small campus located in a suburb not to keen on having college football in town. They've grown up and out of the Big East and make more money now than any member of the BE. Their stadium is built into other athletic buildings in the small space available but is more than adequate and has several games per year broadcast from there.

Cincinnati has grown themselves up into a BCS program even with much in state and in city competition from the pros and "bigger" college football programs --and they also have a small stadium with expansion issues.

UConn is another example. A 1-AA program a decade ago that was able to build facilities and grow themselves into a more than solid program in the Big East, now averaging 35-40,000 a game within just a few years of moving up.

Wake Forest--a small school and campus with no room for an on campus stadium. They've built a 35,000 or so seat stadium nearby which was recently upgraded on the press box side and is a very nice facility. They've had some football success ,even winning the ACC and in a much smaller community than Philadelphia and from not so great football tradition.

So your comparisons are two large state schools, one of them the state flagship; a private school that has been playing major college football since 1939 and has a Heisman winner; and another small private school that has also been playing major college football since 1939, was a founding ACC member, and just recently won its second ever ACC championship?

Yeah, Villanova should be about like Wake Forest without the 70 years to build a major fanbase and the 50 years to build conference football rivalries. Neither BC or Wake have particularly good attendance, this despite BC's success as a program. And Wake has been horrible for decades.

Sounds like Villanova would be a tremendous success. Maybe they'll average 18,000 at Penn Stadium and be marginally more competitive than Wake most years. That will sure boost the Big East's profile and add all of that "value." Villanova's value is in their basketball program; the only reason they are being pushed by the Catholic schools to move up is because the Catholics don't want to be outvoted, and they think that football playing Villanova will still vote with the Catholic bloc.

Last time I checked, neither BC nor Wake Forest small attendance has hurt their league the slightest in revenues. Or in TV coverage of any sort for that matter. They both do better than all Big East schools in money and are about equal if not better in coverage-especially not having to play all games on weeknights.

Sagarin is garbage because it treats any Division 1 win as the same. That is, a win over an FCS team counts like a win over an FBS team. Does anyone actually believe Villanova could beat any of the teams on that list above? Sagarin is where people with no other argument retreat, because his system doesn't reflect anyone's reality but his own.

(07-04-2010 05:49 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  For those that dislike Villanova so much, but pine for the usual suspects--you might take note that last year Sagarin had Villanova ranked at #30 in the final polls ahead of such teams as :

#31 FSU
#32 WVU
#38 Navy
#39 USF
#41 Rutgers
#44 BC
#51 ECU
#53 Houston

this from a team with around 20 less scholarship athletes, so they must be doing something right. Many keep saying what the wannabees could do if they were just given the chance to move up. Well then how much more might Villanova which is already a member of the Big East be able to do? Right now they might be favored to beat on the field every one of the CUSA/MAC teams people here are so desperate to add.

Nobody "dislikes" Villanova everyone knows that it's going to take more then Villanova to get this conference to the next level financially. Who cares who they're favored to beat, the bottomline is that the Big East Network needs markets and those C-USA schools brings those markets.

Let's see, the BE can add a small private Villanova, that at best will be the next Duke or Wake Forest in football, or it can add UCF, Memphis, or ECU which are 3 relatively large public schools that could become the next VaTech. I bet the BE chooses Villanova.

(07-04-2010 06:59 PM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  Let's see, the BE can add a small private Villanova, that at best will be the next Duke or Wake Forest in football, or it can add UCF, Memphis, or ECU which are 3 relatively large public schools that could become the next VaTech. I bet the BE chooses Villanova.

Virginia Tech is the #17 all-time winningest football teams. It's not like they only started winning when they joined the Big East. They had a rich history prior to that.

(07-04-2010 06:59 PM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  Let's see, the BE can add a small private Villanova, that at best will be the next Duke or Wake Forest in football, or it can add UCF, Memphis, or ECU which are 3 relatively large public schools that could become the next VaTech. I bet the BE chooses Villanova.

Or the Big East could add BC or Maryland or TCU or Houston or Temple or Navy or Army or Marshall or perhaps even Delaware or Umass oneday. Problem with your setup is that you are under some false belief that UCF, Memphis and ECU are somehow the only possible options the Big East has when it isn't remotely the case.

(07-04-2010 06:25 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 05:49 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  For those that dislike Villanova so much, but pine for the usual suspects--you might take note that last year Sagarin had Villanova ranked at #30 in the final polls ahead of such teams as :

#31 FSU
#32 WVU
#38 Navy
#39 USF
#41 Rutgers
#44 BC
#51 ECU
#53 Houston

this from a team with around 20 less scholarship athletes, so they must be doing something right. Many keep saying what the wannabees could do if they were just given the chance to move up. Well then how much more might Villanova which is already a member of the Big East be able to do? Right now they might be favored to beat on the field every one of the CUSA/MAC teams people here are so desperate to add.

Nobody "dislikes" Villanova everyone knows that it's going to take more then Villanova to get this conference to the next level financially. Who cares who they're favored to beat, the bottomline is that the Big East Network needs markets and those C-USA schools brings those markets.

Question #1. What keeps making you say over and over that the Big East Network needs markets when the Big East has told us they are in ---with existing membership mind you--25% to 40% of U.S. tv households. This isn't coming from some message board anonymous poster who knows someone who knows someone who told somebody something--it's coming from Big East HQ where everyone can see it.

Question #2 what makes you think "those C-USA schools brings those markets?"
Orlando is a big market. Memphis is not a huge market. ECU has virtually no tv market. What makes you think that the Big East needs these markets and what are you talking about when you speak of an ECU bringing a market? Look it up. There are 4(FOUR) BCS teams in the actual markets down the road from them. Their market is not a top 100 tv market in this country. How then are they adding anything to the Big East? Why do you keep repeating this as though repeating this will make them have a market?

The Big East does NOT need to add CUSA teams to get their mostly medium markets to non-existent markets in order to have a network. If this was the case then CUSA would have a network and be one of the richest conferences around today. This false mythology is so absurd that it boggles the mind to think that people would actually believe this nonsense. Hello? The Big East, that's right the existing Big East is already--that means NOW--in over 25% of all US TV households. That is a LOT of people. They don't need to add the #103 DMA in the country to make a network work. They already have the states of WV, Connecticut and New Jersey, plus Southwestern Ohio, Western PA, a good part of eastern PA, Upstate NY, A good smattering of NYC, Tampa Bay, Western KY, a presence nationally with ND, a presence in Milwaukee and Chicago, a presence in the D.C. area---the Big East doesn't have to add any markets to get a network going.

(07-04-2010 05:52 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Sagarin is garbage because it treats any Division 1 win as the same. That is, a win over an FCS team counts like a win over an FBS team. Does anyone actually believe Villanova could beat any of the teams on that list above? Sagarin is where people with no other argument retreat, because his system doesn't reflect anyone's reality but his own.

I would say it is a draw between VU and the CUSA/MAC usual suspects for football. If it were a 5 or so team conference, VU football would be at or near the top and VU basketball would be at the top.

It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

Yep, a soccer stadium that sits 30+ minutes away from campus...only holds 18,000, and is in one of the worst cities for crime on the east coast...

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

All good points

(07-04-2010 10:05 PM)templefan1 Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

Yep, a soccer stadium that sits 30+ minutes away from campus...only holds 18,000, and is in one of the worst cities for crime on the east coast...

Several schools have stadiums away from their campus including Pittsburgh, USF, Miami, FL and UCLA. Not really an issue. For attendance, isn't the requirement that teams must average 15,000 people in actual or paid attendance per home game, which must be met once in a rolling two-year period? I'm sure the soccer stadium would meet the requirements initially until a better solution could be achieved.

(07-04-2010 09:21 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 05:52 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Sagarin is garbage because it treats any Division 1 win as the same. That is, a win over an FCS team counts like a win over an FBS team. Does anyone actually believe Villanova could beat any of the teams on that list above? Sagarin is where people with no other argument retreat, because his system doesn't reflect anyone's reality but his own.

I would say it is a draw between VU and the CUSA/MAC usual suspects for football. If it were a 5 or so team conference, VU football would be at or near the top and VU basketball would be at the top.

Villanova football would get stomped by all the CUSA candidates. Well maybe not Memphis. They may have upset Temple, but they are no App State when it comes to being an FCS team with FBS caliber players.

(07-04-2010 05:52 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Sagarin is garbage because it treats any Division 1 win as the same. That is, a win over an FCS team counts like a win over an FBS team. Does anyone actually believe Villanova could beat any of the teams on that list above?

I wouldn't bet on them, but last year's Villanova team was absolutely capable of beating those teams on a good day for them/bad day for the opponent. The top 10 or so FCS programs can play on a mid-low FBS level. There's a steep drop-off after that.

None of that really has to do with BCS readiness though. UConn was the definition of mediocre football before they announced that they were moving to FBS. They'd never even made it to the FCS playoffs, let alone won a championship, and were playing in front of crowds of about 7000-8000. Don't underestimate how big a difference putting a BCS conference sticker on the back of the helmet makes. People laughed at UConn for thinking they could have a successful FBS program. Nova's problem is the state isn't going to build them a free stadium.

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

Jackson, you make some really good points.

One thing I would like to add......Everybody has to understand that for an expansion of the Big East to happen, BOTH the football and basketball side has to agree...........lets not forget that. THAT is the sticking point.


_

Something I'd like to offer... Market size does not mean market penetration or saturation. Comparing market sizes alone really isn't relevant.

(07-04-2010 10:24 PM)WVUeer Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

Jackson, you make some really good points.

One thing I would like to add......Everybody has to understand that for an expansion of the Big East to happen, BOTH the football and basketball side has to agree...........lets not forget that. THAT is the sticking point.


_

This is very true. Of course most of these non Big East people here have the league split up to bring in CUSA programs. It isn't in the best interest of existing members to do this but they don't care. You are correct, both football AND basketball will be part of this vote and they will want to associate with certain types of schools and schools they have something in common with.

(07-04-2010 10:12 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 10:05 PM)templefan1 Wrote:  

(07-04-2010 09:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  It seems to me that there is some shortsightedness going on in this thread. The push for Nova is about long term stability not short term financial gain.

A) A ninth member would help stabalize the football league. Oliver Luck said recently that the BE football league is going to have to expand to survive, and I think we all can agree with that.

B)Will Nova moving up increase the likelyhood that the BE network will be on in Philly? That's a pretty important question.

C) It seems to me that long term growth may be the goal here. Nova is an Eastern school that was a D1 program as recently as the early 80s. It's a valued bball rival and could fit nicely with Rutgers, Pitt etc

D) Isn't there a MLS stadium under construction in Philly that could serve as Nova's home?

Its could be possible that the BE football schools feel more comfortable partnering with
Nova due to geography, bball history and academics then with a current CUSA school.

Yep, a soccer stadium that sits 30+ minutes away from campus...only holds 18,000, and is in one of the worst cities for crime on the east coast...

Several schools have stadiums away from their campus including Pittsburgh, USF, Miami, FL and UCLA. Not really an issue. For attendance, isn't the requirement that teams must average 15,000 people in actual or paid attendance per home game, which must be met once in a rolling two-year period? I'm sure the soccer stadium would meet the requirements initially until a better solution could be achieved.

I dont think you realize the cultural divide between Villanova, Pennsylvania and Chester, Pennsylvania. Villanova is an extremely wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. Chester is currently under curfew, because the natives are killing each other: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/201...month.html