(01-26-2013 01:50 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 01:19 PM)msu_bears Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 12:27 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  How does a President accept a bid with an $11.6 million budget and title IX to address? I just don't see how their President can address that by June 1. Missouri St is a little late for this round of realignment. Also, with the importance of conference strength in the new payout system, Missouri State's stock dropped as their best record in the last 20 years is 6-5. Without a big market this is too much to overcome. Also seems to be a lack on interest with attendance at 9,600.

9,600 attendance is pretty good considering our record of late, imagine how much it would increase with a winning record or actually playing a school anyone has ever heard of before. The $11.6 budget doesn't include our new $67 million dollar basketball arena that is already getting a $2 million locker room update, the $32 million baseball stadium we play at. The $40 million football stadium expansion in the works and brand new softball complex. They are also planning on adding 2 new women's sports in the next year. The soccer and track teams are going to get a brand new facility as they are moving out of the football stadium next year. To look at the official budget number doesn't really reflect how much money has been and will be spent on facilities.

Those are nice improvements and ones that are being considered, but that does not change the annual operating budget of $11.6 million which must be addressed. As far as winning, why would you expect that to suddenly improve in FBS when Missouri state has never even made the FCS playoffs. If anything it will get worse as the competition increases and the advantages MSU should have over other mostly smaller FCS schools is gone.

Actually we have made the playoffs twice. Recruiting FBS talent will be easier than recruiting FCS talent especially in our region.

Our budget is 13.8 million. Which is similar to Arkansas State, Louisiana, Troy, and Louisiana-Monroe. Something also to consider we are failry self supported athletic department espeically for a mid-major as only about 36% of our budget comes from the university.

What year did you make the playoffs considering 6-5 is the best record in almost 20 years? As far as the recruiting issue, wouldn't the current FCS teams you are competing against have the same issues? Therefore, all things being equal, Missouri st is just not a football school and the record speaks for itself. Our basketball is much like you football vice-versa.

According to this article from, the 2011-2012 budget was $11.6 million.

http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads...uts.10473/

If I were Commish of the SBC then I would recommend Appalachian St. and Georgia Southern in the East and New Mexico St. plus Missouri St. in the West...unfortunately, I am not the Commish...

The MVC and MVFC are separate entities, much the CAA and CAA football leagues. Leaving the MVC does not require MSU to immediately pull out of the MVFC. MSU could still play at the FCS level for a number of years.

(01-26-2013 02:30 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 11:46 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 08:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  STupid yankee question:

IF Arkansas can support two FBS teams, why can't Missouri?

Traditionally in Missouri, it's been Mizzou on top and every other public school placed a tier below them, they were the first land-grant college after all. The directional schools like SEMO and commuter schools like UMKC hung in DII for a while until they moved up as they stood out, though they've never seriously threatened Mizzou for a significant share of the state. Truman State and Missouri S&T emerged academically over time too, but Missouri State has been the only one to enter a position of relative power, mainly because Springfield is a decent sized city and the school has really grown over time.

A little bit of the problem might be that there's too many public 4-year colleges too, but it all goes back to how Mizzou was placed on top, not it's really their fault. Like I said on another post on this thread, a school like UMKC, SLU, or UMSL could've played the role of Cincinnati to Ohio State if the athletic program developed differenntly over time, but that obviously never happened.

The regional normal school idea was pretty decent concept for early 1900s when it started but in current times not as much. But it sure has helped the MIAA dominate D2 sports espeically since the NCC folded.

I wouldn't be surprised to see UCM move up to the FCS one day, but their program is so dominant at DII that there isn't much of a reason to do so unless they get into a good conference like the Valley. Going into the OVC like SEMO probably is less preferable to them if I had to guess. Lindenwood in St. Charles, while it just moved to DII after being in the NAIA, has DI aspirations for sure, their facilities and growth rate overall are astounding.

(01-26-2013 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 01:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 12:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 12:27 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  How does a President accept a bid with an $11.6 million budget and title IX to address? I just don't see how their President can address that by June 1. Missouri St is a little late for this round of realignment. Also, with the importance of conference strength in the new payout system, Missouri State's stock dropped as their best record in the last 20 years is 6-5. Without a big market this is too much to overcome. Also seems to be a lack on interest with attendance at 9,600.

Better than UConn when they got invited to the BE.

I assume you mean BE FB. UConn got a free pass there because they were a member already. Somewhat like Charlotte getting back into C-USA--being an OG counts sometimes.

The point is UConn has made some bowls and is averaging 35-40k despite being mediocre in FCS. Missouri State has similar upward potential. I would contrast that to Appalachian State and Montana who draw better than a lot of FBS schools and could compete decently in the Sun Belt or MAC right away, but have probably peaked out as far as attendance. Both are in sparesely populated areas and Appalachian already has 5 going on 6 FBS programs in a state w/o a lot of fb talent.

I would say a better analogy for Missouri State might be Western Kentucky which didn't draw or have very much success in football aside from a few playoff years yet they've quickly pulled together a solid SBC level team in a matter of 5 years.

Having good fan support is in basketball like MSU has is indicative of potential in football. Its when a school struggles to draw in basketball that the ability to build up a mass following in football has to be questioned.

A quick correction, UConn only averaged 30,000 this season.

(01-26-2013 03:45 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 02:30 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 11:46 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 08:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  STupid yankee question:

IF Arkansas can support two FBS teams, why can't Missouri?

Traditionally in Missouri, it's been Mizzou on top and every other public school placed a tier below them, they were the first land-grant college after all. The directional schools like SEMO and commuter schools like UMKC hung in DII for a while until they moved up as they stood out, though they've never seriously threatened Mizzou for a significant share of the state. Truman State and Missouri S&T emerged academically over time too, but Missouri State has been the only one to enter a position of relative power, mainly because Springfield is a decent sized city and the school has really grown over time.

A little bit of the problem might be that there's too many public 4-year colleges too, but it all goes back to how Mizzou was placed on top, not it's really their fault. Like I said on another post on this thread, a school like UMKC, SLU, or UMSL could've played the role of Cincinnati to Ohio State if the athletic program developed differenntly over time, but that obviously never happened.

The regional normal school idea was pretty decent concept for early 1900s when it started but in current times not as much. But it sure has helped the MIAA dominate D2 sports espeically since the NCC folded.

I wouldn't be surprised to see UCM move up to the FCS one day, but their program is so dominant at DII that there isn't much of a reason to do so unless they get into a good conference like the Valley. Going into the OVC like SEMO probably is less preferable to them if I had to guess. Lindenwood in St. Charles, while it just moved to DII after being in the NAIA, has DI aspirations for sure, their facilities and growth rate overall are astounding.

I fully agree with you on both of them. Lindenwood's growth the last 10 years has been unbelivable and the Metroplex's growth is crazy as well. As soon as Lindenwood is eligable to move up I see them doing so either to Summit/MVFC or OVC.

(01-25-2013 10:50 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Missouri State may also be questioning the future of the MVC. Creighton is likely gone to the post-football BIg East and Evansville is considering the Horizon League. If the post-football Big East picks up four from the Atlantic 10, the Atlantic 10 could reload at the expense of the Missouri Valley.

Creighton - Big East (C7)
Wichita State - Summit
Missouri State - Sun Belt
Southern Illinois - Atlantic 10
Northern Iowa - Summit
Drake - Atlantic 10
Illinois State - MAC
Bradley - Atlantic 10
Indiana State - Atlantic 10
Evansville - Horizon

The idea of Missouri State going to the Sun Belt practically kills their basketball program. How is MoSt going to recruit for that sport? Would risk killing the one cash cow that they have. MoSt would be a decent add for CUSA if/when Tulsa leaves and if WKU/Ark St were both added. CUSA could really help its basketball by adding both Wichita St and MoSt, which could be travel partners.

As for the rest of the MVC, the A10 is not going to be attractive to any MVC schools as its payout is not larger and the costs are higher. Losing SLU, Butler, Xavier etc will just make it all the less attractive.

Obviously Creighton is a huge flight risk, and maybe even Wichita State as a bb-only to the Big East. Evansville has a lower budget program that might make sense for the Horizon.

Air Force has inquired to the MVC for olympics before, and they could actually get interest now. Pair them with Denver. Other options could be Belmont, Oral Roberts, Omaha (has a new on-campus arena being built), UW-Milwaukee.

(01-26-2013 04:16 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 03:45 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I wouldn't be surprised to see UCM move up to the FCS one day, but their program is so dominant at DII that there isn't much of a reason to do so unless they get into a good conference like the Valley. Going into the OVC like SEMO probably is less preferable to them if I had to guess. Lindenwood in St. Charles, while it just moved to DII after being in the NAIA, has DI aspirations for sure, their facilities and growth rate overall are astounding.

I fully agree with you on both of them. Lindenwood's growth the last 10 years has been unbelivable and the Metroplex's growth is crazy as well. As soon as Lindenwood is eligable to move up I see them doing so either to Summit/MVFC or OVC.

How is Lindenwood financing all their sports? Not only do they sponsor a large number of DII sports, but their club teams fly all over the country and are top notch. They also have a DI women's hockey team, which is probably their only sport they are not doing well in.

Supposedly Lindenwood has a standing invitation to the Summit as soon as Lindenwood is eligible for a DI transition (in three years?).

(01-26-2013 04:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 10:50 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Missouri State may also be questioning the future of the MVC. Creighton is likely gone to the post-football BIg East and Evansville is considering the Horizon League. If the post-football Big East picks up four from the Atlantic 10, the Atlantic 10 could reload at the expense of the Missouri Valley.

Creighton - Big East (C7)
Wichita State - Summit
Missouri State - Sun Belt
Southern Illinois - Atlantic 10
Northern Iowa - Summit
Drake - Atlantic 10
Illinois State - MAC
Bradley - Atlantic 10
Indiana State - Atlantic 10
Evansville - Horizon

The idea of Missouri State going to the Sun Belt practically kills their basketball program. How is MoSt going to recruit for that sport? Would risk killing the one cash cow that they have. MoSt would be a decent add for CUSA if/when Tulsa leaves and if WKU/Ark St were both added. CUSA could really help its basketball by adding both Wichita St and MoSt, which could be travel partners.

As for the rest of the MVC, the A10 is not going to be attractive to any MVC schools as its payout is not larger and the costs are higher. Losing SLU, Butler, Xavier etc will just make it all the less attractive.

Obviously Creighton is a huge flight risk, and maybe even Wichita State as a bb-only to the Big East. Evansville has a lower budget program that might make sense for the Horizon.

Air Force has inquired to the MVC for olympics before, and they could actually get interest now. Pair them with Denver. Other options could be Belmont, Oral Roberts, Omaha (has a new on-campus arena being built), UW-Milwaukee.

A few points.

-SBC basketball is not that bad if you've got MSU, WKU, AState, UALR and UTA in the conference. I still believe a spot in an an G5 conference where a league is making 20 million in FB alone is better than playing in a D1 basketball conference making 5 million from the tourney.

-I would not be surprised if the MVC decided to sit at 8 schools if Creighton and Evansville left. They definitely are the type of league that doesn't like going beyond 10 members.

-Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

-I wonder if the MVC would reach out to South Dakota State? The Dakota's are on on the rise in athletic and the Valley could make them into a star.

-I would not rule out Valpo because of their name and another school in a strong basketball recruiting state.

(01-26-2013 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  The point is UConn has made some bowls and is averaging 35-40k despite being mediocre in FCS. Missouri State has similar upward potential. I would contrast that to Appalachian State and Montana who draw better than a lot of FBS schools and could compete decently in the Sun Belt or MAC right away, but have probably peaked out as far as attendance. Both are in sparesely populated areas and Appalachian already has 5 going on 6 FBS programs in a state w/o a lot of fb talent.

Dunno if I would lump App State with Montana.

First, there are more people within a two hour drive of Boone, NC than in the entire state of Montana.

Second, while North Carolina is not a Texas, California, or Florida there is football talent there. And unlike Montana who would have to draw recruits from further away, App State has a fairly deep pool to pull from within a reasonable distance considering the talent pools of not just NC but VA, SC, and GA.

(01-26-2013 06:10 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  The point is UConn has made some bowls and is averaging 35-40k despite being mediocre in FCS. Missouri State has similar upward potential. I would contrast that to Appalachian State and Montana who draw better than a lot of FBS schools and could compete decently in the Sun Belt or MAC right away, but have probably peaked out as far as attendance. Both are in sparesely populated areas and Appalachian already has 5 going on 6 FBS programs in a state w/o a lot of fb talent.

Dunno if I would lump App State with Montana.

First, there are more people within a two hour drive of Boone, NC than in the entire state of Montana.

Second, while North Carolina is not a Texas, California, or Florida there is football talent there. And unlike Montana who would have to draw recruits from further away, App State has a fairly deep pool to pull from within a reasonable distance considering the talent pools of not just NC but VA, SC, and GA.

But for the attendance, you need the local fans, not just alumni. And you aren't getting ones 2 hours away.

(01-26-2013 06:13 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 06:10 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  The point is UConn has made some bowls and is averaging 35-40k despite being mediocre in FCS. Missouri State has similar upward potential. I would contrast that to Appalachian State and Montana who draw better than a lot of FBS schools and could compete decently in the Sun Belt or MAC right away, but have probably peaked out as far as attendance. Both are in sparesely populated areas and Appalachian already has 5 going on 6 FBS programs in a state w/o a lot of fb talent.

Dunno if I would lump App State with Montana.

First, there are more people within a two hour drive of Boone, NC than in the entire state of Montana.

Second, while North Carolina is not a Texas, California, or Florida there is football talent there. And unlike Montana who would have to draw recruits from further away, App State has a fairly deep pool to pull from within a reasonable distance considering the talent pools of not just NC but VA, SC, and GA.

But for the attendance, you need the local fans, not just alumni. And you aren't getting ones 2 hours away.

They were at 130% capacity the past few years with a FCS schedule. They will draw.

Boone has a higher population than Clemson.

(01-26-2013 05:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

Belmont is in Nashville, at the head of Music Row. It's a school of the arts, mainly music, about a mile from the Vandy Med Center. I used to use their computer lab when I was recovering from my transplant. The walk was good exercise, and helped me lose 60 pounds in the first 4 months after my transplant...

(01-26-2013 07:22 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 05:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

Belmont is in Nashville, at the head of Music Row. It's a school of the arts, mainly music, about a mile from the Vandy Med Center. I used to use their computer lab when I was recovering from my transplant. The walk was good exercise, and helped me lose 60 pounds in the first 4 months after my transplant...

He's probably thinking of Bellarmine in Louisville.

(01-26-2013 06:39 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 06:13 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 06:10 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  The point is UConn has made some bowls and is averaging 35-40k despite being mediocre in FCS. Missouri State has similar upward potential. I would contrast that to Appalachian State and Montana who draw better than a lot of FBS schools and could compete decently in the Sun Belt or MAC right away, but have probably peaked out as far as attendance. Both are in sparesely populated areas and Appalachian already has 5 going on 6 FBS programs in a state w/o a lot of fb talent.

Dunno if I would lump App State with Montana.

First, there are more people within a two hour drive of Boone, NC than in the entire state of Montana.

Second, while North Carolina is not a Texas, California, or Florida there is football talent there. And unlike Montana who would have to draw recruits from further away, App State has a fairly deep pool to pull from within a reasonable distance considering the talent pools of not just NC but VA, SC, and GA.

But for the attendance, you need the local fans, not just alumni. And you aren't getting ones 2 hours away.

They were at 130% capacity the past few years with a FCS schedule. They will draw.

Boone has a higher population than Clemson.

App St. isn't a flagship and isn't 40 miles from the center of a metro area of a half million (Greenvile) like Clemson is.

(01-26-2013 07:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 07:22 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 05:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

Belmont is in Nashville, at the head of Music Row. It's a school of the arts, mainly music, about a mile from the Vandy Med Center. I used to use their computer lab when I was recovering from my transplant. The walk was good exercise, and helped me lose 60 pounds in the first 4 months after my transplant...

He's probably thinking of Bellarmine in Louisville.

Perhaps. The name is similar...

(01-26-2013 08:19 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 07:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 07:22 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 05:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

Belmont is in Nashville, at the head of Music Row. It's a school of the arts, mainly music, about a mile from the Vandy Med Center. I used to use their computer lab when I was recovering from my transplant. The walk was good exercise, and helped me lose 60 pounds in the first 4 months after my transplant...

He's probably thinking of Bellarmine in Louisville.

Perhaps. The name is similar...

Should have looked it up before I posted it.

The MVC has got to control the Great Plains so the question is what additions allow them to best do that? UMKC and UNO?

It seems like the traditional approach to MVC expansion has been to stay regional rather than experiment with new markets. Stay regional and allow programs to grow like they did with SW Missouri State.

(01-26-2013 08:32 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 08:19 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 07:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 07:22 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 05:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Belmont is in Kentucky, that isn't happening for the MVC.

Belmont is in Nashville, at the head of Music Row. It's a school of the arts, mainly music, about a mile from the Vandy Med Center. I used to use their computer lab when I was recovering from my transplant. The walk was good exercise, and helped me lose 60 pounds in the first 4 months after my transplant...

He's probably thinking of Bellarmine in Louisville.

Perhaps. The name is similar...

Should have looked it up before I posted it.

The MVC has got to control the Great Plains so the question is what additions allow them to best do that? UMKC and UNO?

It seems like the traditional approach to MVC expansion has been to stay regional rather than experiment with new markets. Stay regional and allow programs to grow like they did with SW Missouri State.

Belmont is thought to be contemplating a move to the Horizon. The MVC is a better option for basketball. Sure, Belmont moved to the OVC from the ASun, but that was for a better basketball league. Conferences want a piece of Nashville and Belmont wants to move up in the basketball world. (The OVC didn't invite them directly from NAIA as Belmont wanted. The OVC is basically an entry level league, a half a rung up from the ASun).

The MVC's past expansion has almost always been with this formula: add schools in a metro area of 250,000 within 250 miles of St Louis (Arch Madness) that have seating for at least 5000 (and preferably more). Wichita St is actually a school that is more of an outlier than most of the rest of the MVC as well as Belmont.