(07-25-2013 09:56 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 09:38 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  Why would BigXII teams want to give up playing Texas and OU every year to add two middle of the road schools? Unless the additions are big name schools, there really isn't a point

Jackson

I think that could very well be a factor.

Unless the schools are some combination of LSU, Alabama, Notre Dame, Nebraska, or Florida State, the B12 will lose money expanding. Even adding a championship game will not overcome the loss of having to split the playoff and bowl money 11 or 12 ways instead of 10. The B12 might come close to breaking even with BYU and Cincinatti, but it's still probably a net loss.

The B12 will get about $95 million per year from the Sugar Bowl and the Playoff - that's $9.5 million a team (we will not quibble over the payments to the league office - before or after distribution). Each B12 team loses nearly $1,000,000 for every addition. That means a championship game has to bring in $24 million a year to break even at 12 schools.

Supposedly there is no additional TV money for adding schools, however to break even each added school has to make an additional $20 million worth of TV money to fall from the sky for the B10 to go to 12 and not lose money. I just don't see how they can afford to expand at all.

(07-25-2013 08:56 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:33 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  West Virginia exeperienced some growing pains in their 1st year in the Big 12 but I see no reason to add a school or schools that have trouble averaging 30K per game for a season.

If the Big 12 is FORCED to expand, I would rather look at the ECU and USF. As others mentioned in the other thread, UCF and USF wouldn't be bad additions.

I see no reason to join a league that plays games in nowhereland,aka Lubbock. What's with the HARDON for UC, every other post you make is exactly the same, still trying to figure out what Tech has ever done on the national stage in any sport. If there was anything else to do in that god forsaken part of the country you people call home ,my guess is your averages would drop significantly, I think UC drew more to PBS when Oklahoma and Ohio State came to town than your stadium holds.

Honestly, prior to pine box running away to UC, I hardly knew anything about your school except the conference they played in and the weak attendance your school produces each year. Since then, I have a love/hate relationship with your school and your fans. I love the fact that "pine box" ran off to a BBall school that is losing its AQ status but I hate the fact that Tech wasn't given the chance to fire his sorry butt. UC fans brag about how they stole a Big 12 coach but the fact remains our AD told him to shape up in 2013 or ship out. He shipped out to a school in a dying conference and UC fans can't/won't comprehend that. I despise everything about Tommy "to go box" tuberville and I hope he fails. Your school just happens to be the one that hired him and once he is done collecting a paycheck, Cincy will be another school that resides in the bottom half of the attendance rankings in a league no one cares about.

As for Jones Stadium, it holds a little under 61K with the latest( not complete) stadium renovation. Last year we played OU in front of 60,800 and Texas in front of 60,879. We played West Virginia in front of 57K. We put 57K in the stands for SMU in 2010. Thanks to PBS and Buckeye fans, you have 1 game that beats Tech in regular season attendance--- 2002 Ohio St vs UC. 2010 Oklahoma vs UC was 58K.

(07-25-2013 09:38 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  Why would BigXII teams want to give up playing Texas and OU every year to add two middle of the road schools? Unless the additions are big name schools, there really isn't a point

Jackson

Well said.

The notion that the Big 12 "has" to expand to 12 is the wishful thinking of fans of outside-looking-in G5 schools, like my USF, that think we would then be one of those two teams.

Truth is, the Big 12 has absolutely no reason to expand other than if the opportunity arose to grab a blue-chip program like Notre Dame that would clearly bring in more new money than they take out. But the Big 12 has no incentive at all to dilute their earnings pool with schools like UCF, Cincy, UConn, USF, etc.

(07-26-2013 02:57 AM)jml2010 Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:56 PM)CincyBro Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:33 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  West Virginia exeperienced some growing pains in their 1st year in the Big 12 but I see no reason to add a school or schools that have trouble averaging 30K per game for a season.

If the Big 12 is FORCED to expand, I would rather look at the ECU and USF. As others mentioned in the other thread, UCF and USF wouldn't be bad additions.

I see no reason to join a league that plays games in nowhereland,aka Lubbock. What's with the HARDON for UC, every other post you make is exactly the same, still trying to figure out what Tech has ever done on the national stage in any sport. If there was anything else to do in that god forsaken part of the country you people call home ,my guess is your averages would drop significantly, I think UC drew more to PBS when Oklahoma and Ohio State came to town than your stadium holds.

Honestly, prior to pine box running away to UC, I hardly knew anything about your school except the conference they played in and the weak attendance your school produces each year. Since then, I have a love/hate relationship with your school and your fans. I love the fact that "pine box" ran off to a BBall school that is losing its AQ status but I hate the fact that Tech wasn't given the chance to fire his sorry butt. UC fans brag about how they stole a Big 12 coach but the fact remains our AD told him to shape up in 2013 or ship out. He shipped out to a school in a dying conference and UC fans can't/won't comprehend that. I despise everything about Tommy "to go box" tuberville and I hope he fails. Your school just happens to be the one that hired him and once he is done collecting a paycheck, Cincy will be another school that resides in the bottom half of the attendance rankings in a league no one cares about.

As for Jones Stadium, it holds a little under 61K with the latest( not complete) stadium renovation. Last year we played OU in front of 60,800 and Texas in front of 60,879. We played West Virginia in front of 57K. We put 57K in the stands for SMU in 2010. Thanks to PBS and Buckeye fans, you have 1 game that beats Tech in regular season attendance--- 2002 Ohio St vs UC. 2010 Oklahoma vs UC was 58K.

Thank you for finally revealing your true nature. It was obvious for UC fans before, but at least this time you made it clear why you will cover the boards trashing UC any way you can.

I really don't understand Tech fans. By their own account, they are the happiest people in the world because Tubs left. So why in the world do they all act so spiteful and bitter? We are happy. You are happy. Move on and stop acting like high school girls for goodness sake. There has to be SOMETHING else to do in that town.

(07-26-2013 08:50 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The notion that the Big 12 "has" to expand to 12 is the wishful thinking of fans of outside-looking-in G5 schools, like my USF, that think we would then be one of those two teams.

Truth is, the Big 12 has absolutely no reason to expand other than if the opportunity arose to grab a blue-chip program like Notre Dame that would clearly bring in more new money than they take out. But the Big 12 has no incentive at all to dilute their earnings pool with schools like UCF, Cincy, UConn, USF, etc.

Unless they are forced to have a CCG, exactly this.

(07-25-2013 09:53 PM)OldGoldnBlue Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 09:44 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:50 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:42 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  

(07-25-2013 08:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:  imo all those two schools do is add another island to the b12.

West Virginia knew they were on an island when they joined and I doubt they want another school that will take away from their TV payout.

and i think wvu/b12 vastly underestimated how big of an impact the island status would be and probably were expecting a few ACC teams to be b12 members by now.....

even i was surprised, im a b12 hater and even i didnt predict wvu to get knocked down so fast

Why? Football recruiting at WVU has never been better. WVU was probably three plays from going 9-3. Not bad when you consider jumping to the new league/replacing the entire defense from the Orange Bowl team.

Jackson

This. I find it comical that people think WVU has "fallen" because of one mediocre season where we still won 7 games and were literally two plays from winning 9 before going into a bowl game. Our defense was atrocious after losing our longtime DC and Dana appointing his buddy who was in way over his head. Hopefully that problem has been fixed this year and we put a solid team on the field even in a rebuilding year. We have never been a Texas, Alabama or Oklahoma, we have 7 and 8 win seasons occasionally.

I agree being an island hasn't hurt football results. It might effect things, but even if it does, it hasn't happened yet.

It kind of is amazing how quickly opinions change (and I'll admit to getting into it too). Louisville is looked at so strongly now, but it was its overall athletic department that put them in the discussion against West Virginia for the spot 2 years ago, while West Virginia was thought of as a little stronger in football. One great season combined with one bad one at West Virginia seems to have changed that perception very quickly (which is really weird considering if West Virginia had still been in the Big East, it's debatable who would have won it; the race wasn't a cakewalk for anyone last year).

The CCG is the reason to expand (as well as getting into more markets, i.e, no more Texas teams)...yes adding Memphis and Cincy wouldn't give them "more" money per team, but a CCG would give them more money per team.

I expect when the playoff starts in 2014, the Big 12 will look at its options. Cincy is spending money on its stadium and looks in good shape with Tuberville going forward. Memphis looks like it may be making progress finally, has some Liberty Bowl renovations completed and has changed conferences. By 2015 both these programs may be positioned for a move to the B12 and join WVU. Keep in mind the LB is signing a deal with the Big 12.

(07-25-2013 08:33 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  West Virginia exeperienced some growing pains in their 1st year in the Big 12 but I see no reason to add a school or schools that have trouble averaging 30K per game for a season.

Good lord get off the attendance train!

There are more factors than FB attendance in re-alignment but you just harp on one of probably a hundred factors.

And it’s not like they are averaging 12k or anything that would be a complete embarrassment. Heck their stadium currently only holds 35k and change with plans to add some additional suites and extra capacity in the works.

If butts in seats was the only factor schools like BYU and ECU would have be in a long time ago.

I like the football only options for the big 12 with some from the pool of uconn, cincy, usf, byu, afa, and san diego state. I guess you could take them all and jump to 16. Also, maybe bring in usf as a full member and put wvu in the big east with uconn and cincy. The concept of cutting a deal with the big east works fine with the leverage the big east gets to tag along with the big 12 to the big boy table if a total split ever happens. Have 4 pods of 4:

A: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor

B: OU, OK state, KU, KSU

C: SD state*, BYU*, AFA*, Iowa State

D: Uconn*, WVU*, Cincy*, USF

* = football only with uconn, wvu and cincy in the big east, byu and afa in the wcc and sd state in the big west again.

IMHO, if the Big XII is "forced" to expand beyond 10, then I wonder what Texas's response will be.

I have argued that giving up yearly games with Texas and Oklahoma in football and a home game with Kansas in basketball isn't that smart if your one of the middle of the road teams in the Big XII. There would have to other forces driving that league to 12 or 14 schools. Pressure to stage a championship from TV could force them to grab a few schools or maybe the college football playoff will look down upon their champion because they played on less game. At this point there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that the Big XII will suffer at ten schools. The one wild card out there further expansion and geography isolation.

BYU simply has too many issues. Religion, not money, is their primary raison-d'être, so I don't see them compromising on such issues as Sunday play. If they do, however, the B12 is going to have a good chance, because that way they'll have no trouble holding onto their third-tier rights and putting a lot of stuff on their TV network.

But I'm not predicting BYU as a possibility. I just don't see them giving in.

(07-26-2013 10:20 AM)Cardinals Wrote:  BYU simply has too many issues. Religion, not money, is their primary raison-d'être, so I don't see them compromising on such issues as Sunday play. If they do, however, the B12 is going to have a good chance, because that way they'll have no trouble holding onto their third-tier rights and putting a lot of stuff on their TV network.

But I'm not predicting BYU as a possibility. I just don't see them giving in.

Now that BYU has a home for its hoops in the WCC, it creates the option of adding them as football only. In my view Cincy (as a bridge to WVU with a quality fb program) and BYU (as football only) make the most sense if the B12 decides to move to 12. At this point, though, the only obvious benefit of going to 12 is to add a CCG.

ECU still has Chuck Neinas on the payroll for a reason. We are Oliver Luck's first pick and he has been lobbying for our inclusion if such a move were made. I heard this from the horses mouth.

(07-26-2013 10:59 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  ECU still has Chuck Neinas on the payroll for a reason. We are Oliver Luck's first pick and he has been lobbying for our inclusion if such a move were made. I heard this from the horses mouth.

What power does luck have? Neinas was interim commish he may consult but he doesn't swing the big stick in that league. I don't see ecu being an option for that league at all barring multiple teams leaving. It took the big east to collapse for ecu to get in. Wvu was in the big east for years and couldn't get ecu in. Whats so different now that they are in the big 12? Bottom line is the big 12 is not expanding anytime soon and they only felt wvu and TCU were worthy of adding. They already said Louisville and cincy did not add any value to the league. I just don't see ecu having any realistic chance as long as Texas rules. Big 12 has absolutely no incentive to expand given their round robin schedule and pay out.

(07-26-2013 08:50 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The notion that the Big 12 "has" to expand to 12 is the wishful thinking of fans of outside-looking-in G5 schools, like my USF, that think we would then be one of those two teams.

Truth is, the Big 12 has absolutely no reason to expand other than if the opportunity arose to grab a blue-chip program like Notre Dame that would clearly bring in more new money than they take out. But the Big 12 has no incentive at all to dilute their earnings pool with schools like UCF, Cincy, UConn, USF, etc.

Nice to see someone post who really gets it and is willing to admit what the situation realy is. Most reasonable post I have read on this board in along time. You can put SMU right in there with USF.

Let's also not forget the other advantage of 10 team conferences. In the Big Ten, SEC, and ACC, the average length of time between conference championships if all else was even would be 14 years now. Things aren't even and some teams will win much less often, but even the larger powers are going to be going longer stretches with no conference championships and divisional championships aren't celebrated nearly as much (I know their importance will grow, but I couldn't have cared less about winning the "leaders" last year). Nebraska hasn't won won one in more than a decade.

In the Big 12 though, there are only 9 other teams to compete with and co-champs. While an outright championship is still the goal, you can expect to be putting up conference banners a lot more often in the Big 12. That helps the middle tier schools a lot.

(07-26-2013 10:28 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 10:20 AM)Cardinals Wrote:  BYU simply has too many issues. Religion, not money, is their primary raison-d'être, so I don't see them compromising on such issues as Sunday play. If they do, however, the B12 is going to have a good chance, because that way they'll have no trouble holding onto their third-tier rights and putting a lot of stuff on their TV network.

But I'm not predicting BYU as a possibility. I just don't see them giving in.

Now that BYU has a home for its hoops in the WCC, it creates the option of adding them as football only. In my view Cincy (as a bridge to WVU with a quality fb program) and BYU (as football only) make the most sense if the B12 decides to move to 12. At this point, though, the only obvious benefit of going to 12 is to add a CCG.

Now this is a good idea. And for Cincy's sake, I'd like to see it happen.

(07-26-2013 11:46 AM)kardphan Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 10:59 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  ECU still has Chuck Neinas on the payroll for a reason. We are Oliver Luck's first pick and he has been lobbying for our inclusion if such a move were made. I heard this from the horses mouth.

What power does luck have? Neinas was interim commish he may consult but he doesn't swing the big stick in that league. I don't see ecu being an option for that league at all barring multiple teams leaving. It took the big east to collapse for ecu to get in. Wvu was in the big east for years and couldn't get ecu in. Whats so different now that they are in the big 12? Bottom line is the big 12 is not expanding anytime soon and they only felt wvu and TCU were worthy of adding. They already said Louisville and cincy did not add any value to the league. I just don't see ecu having any realistic chance as long as Texas rules. Big 12 has absolutely no incentive to expand given their round robin schedule and pay out.

Did I say he would be successful? No. All I said is that we are spending $ trying and we have friends on the inside. The BE situation does not correlate to other conferences that are not totally focused on TV markets of particular metro cities.