(06-23-2020 05:25 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  I don't see much of a problem with the removal of the names of Confederate soldiers, but I do wonder when it stops.

Maybe we shouldn't have statues or building names at all? Is anyone clean enough to be worth remembering?

My honest answers to the above are:

It should stop when the good reasons stop.

The question is a good one because it causes us to examine WHY certain buildings were named for people. Any building or monument erected to honor a confederate leader more than 50 years after the Civil War is most likely not simply an attempt to honor a “great leader”. Look at Hanover County Schools in the Richmond area. When faced with the prospect of forced integration, the school board threatened to shut all schools down. Immediately after, they named two new schools Stonewall Jackson MS Rebels & Lee-Davis HS Confederates just to make sure “they” know what the score is. They weren’t honoring Jackson, Lee or Davis. It was a giant, segregationist middle finger.

(06-23-2020 07:28 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(06-23-2020 05:25 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  I don't see much of a problem with the removal of the names of Confederate soldiers, but I do wonder when it stops.

Maybe we shouldn't have statues or building names at all? Is anyone clean enough to be worth remembering?

My honest answers to the above are:

It should stop when the good reasons stop.

The question is a good one because it causes us to examine WHY certain buildings were named for people. Any building or monument erected to honor a confederate leader more than 50 years after the Civil War is most likely not simply an attempt to honor a “great leader”. Look at Hanover County Schools in the Richmond area. When faced with the prospect of forced integration, the school board threatened to shut all schools down. Immediately after, they named two new schools Stonewall Jackson MS Rebels & Lee-Davis HS Confederates just to make sure “they” know what the score is. They weren’t honoring Jackson, Lee or Davis. It was a giant, segregationist middle finger.

I can get behind this. So we can get rid of names and symbols that were or are currently used to intentionally intimidate people.

So why change Wilson hall?

(06-23-2020 07:28 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(06-23-2020 05:25 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  I don't see much of a problem with the removal of the names of Confederate soldiers, but I do wonder when it stops.

Maybe we shouldn't have statues or building names at all? Is anyone clean enough to be worth remembering?

My honest answers to the above are:

It should stop when the good reasons stop.

The question is a good one because it causes us to examine WHY certain buildings were named for people. Any building or monument erected to honor a confederate leader more than 50 years after the Civil War is most likely not simply an attempt to honor a “great leader”. Look at Hanover County Schools in the Richmond area. When faced with the prospect of forced integration, the school board threatened to shut all schools down. Immediately after, they named two new schools Stonewall Jackson MS Rebels & Lee-Davis HS Confederates just to make sure “they” know what the score is. They weren’t honoring Jackson, Lee or Davis. It was a giant, segregationist middle finger.

Ive been resisting jumping into this mess. glad i waited. I'm not sure with my Communications degree I could have said it any better than this. spot on.

We need Dr. Clive Hallman to weigh in on this. His "Old South" course was fascinating. Pretty sure I know what he'd say, but it's far more entertaining to read the musings of computer nerds and financial analysists.

(06-23-2020 07:07 AM)jmu007 Wrote:  I just find the entire exercise as it’s been conducted so far to be an affront on legitimate debate and progress. But continue your lecture.

That argument falls apart when you fail to acknowledge that the original process that led to the renaming of these three halls in honor of Ashby, Jackson, and Maury was an affront on legitimate debate and progress. That it took us over 100 years to right this wrong is frustrating enough.

Either you don't know that "the trend of commemorating key Southern figures became popular during the Restoration, when the Lost Cause movement attempted to manipulate the retelling of the Civil War" as JMU research rightly points out (seriously, read some of the dedication speeches - they range from perverting history to explicit racism), or you do and you're being intellectually dishonest.

(06-23-2020 07:36 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  

(06-23-2020 07:28 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(06-23-2020 05:25 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  I don't see much of a problem with the removal of the names of Confederate soldiers, but I do wonder when it stops.

Maybe we shouldn't have statues or building names at all? Is anyone clean enough to be worth remembering?

My honest answers to the above are:

It should stop when the good reasons stop.

The question is a good one because it causes us to examine WHY certain buildings were named for people. Any building or monument erected to honor a confederate leader more than 50 years after the Civil War is most likely not simply an attempt to honor a “great leader”. Look at Hanover County Schools in the Richmond area. When faced with the prospect of forced integration, the school board threatened to shut all schools down. Immediately after, they named two new schools Stonewall Jackson MS Rebels & Lee-Davis HS Confederates just to make sure “they” know what the score is. They weren’t honoring Jackson, Lee or Davis. It was a giant, segregationist middle finger.

I can get behind this. So we can get rid of names and symbols that were or are currently used to intentionally intimidate people.

So why change Wilson hall?

Replace CAN above with SHOULD. I’m just advocating for why we should. I don’t have an opinion about Wilson Hall yet because I don’t know it’s history.

(06-23-2020 07:36 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote:  So we can get rid of names and symbols that were or are currently used to intentionally intimidate people.

While we will always have slippery slope to worry about as we move into the future, I think this sentence is a great distillation of what the lion's share of the current movement across America has been rallying around. A+.

I mostly just lurk around here, but this makes me want to speak up.

Yes, James Madison, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and others owned slaves and that is a terrible mark against them in their legacies. But they were mostly honored in the form of buildings and monuments for their accomplishments. They created the nation we live in today, if you can’t see the difference between that and people who actively fought to destroy the nation in the name of slavery (and it’s 2020 people, can’t we get past the Lost Cause BS at this point. I know public education failed a lot of us on that point, but it’s pretty easy in this day and age to look up all the documents Confederate leaders wrote that explicitly laid out slavery as their reason for succeeding and going to war. States’ rights? The CSA was the epitome of big federal government taking control over the states compared to the USA.) then I don’t even know where to begin.

Even if you want to argue someone like Maury should be recognized for his other accomplishments I’d disagree because once again he fought against the USA for slavery, but could listen to the argument there.

But what possible reason in the world is there to honor Turner Ashby? What other contributions to society did he ever make other than being so full of hatred toward blacks that he not only terrorized them, but went after everyone who dared to suggest they should be free? The fact he’s among the Confederates celebrated tells you everything you need to know about the real reason people want to hold up the Confederacy.

(06-23-2020 07:43 AM)olddawg Wrote:  We need Dr. Clive Hallman to weigh in on this. His "Old South" course was fascinating. Pretty sure I know what he'd say, but it's far more entertaining to read the musings of computer nerds and financial analysists.

I would, as well. I had Dr. Hallman for a couple courses and always loved to listen to his lectures. The man has a lot of knowledge in his noggin.

Do I resent all of this? You're damn right I do. This isn't about power hungry cops. Everyone has been victim of that to some extent. And if these protesters were really interested in equality, they'd go with a theme most everyone can agree on. That everyone deserves respect and to be treated fairly.

But that isn't the real narrative. What we have is a bunch of leftist, revisionist, anti-southern, anti-American carpetbaggers coming into states like mine destroying property and trying to shame white people for slavery. Look at these pictures and many of these protesters are white. I'm not ashamed of slavery because the Civil War ended over 100 years before I was born. And victimhood is never an appealing stance. Plenty of boat people have come to this America from war torn countries and got off their asses and established businesses. Native Americans have as big a right to ***** as anyone and they don't go out destroying property.

I wouldn't expect any of you people from northern states to understand. Maybe if a bunch of southern whites posing as supporters of BLM showed up in the north and started tearing down statues of hereos of your state you'd get it. Jackson, Ashby and Maury were defending their state, not taking a political position.

Thank you in advance for your Commie opposition to my post.

Lol @ heros

(06-23-2020 08:14 AM)JacksonHall Wrote:  And if these protesters were really interested in equality, they'd go with a theme most everyone can agree on. That everyone deserves respect and to be treated fairly.

Ah yes, All Lives Matter.

(06-23-2020 08:14 AM)JacksonHall Wrote:  boat people

(06-23-2020 08:14 AM)JacksonHall Wrote:  Jackson, Ashby and Maury were defending their state from abolition, not taking a political position.

FIFY

(06-22-2020 04:26 PM)Rockville Duke Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 03:31 PM)JacksonHall Wrote:  Maybe I'll have to change my name too? This is a damn shame. I was a political science and history major. I know communism when I see it. The thought police are everywhere in this Orwellian nightmare.

I am very happy we are beginning to exit our Orwelian nightmare of the last 150+ years where traitors and enslavers were glorified with building names and statues. As a history major I am sure you are familiar with confederate VP Alexander Stephens Cornerstone Speech praising the new confederate constitution:

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. [...] Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science."

Change every building name. Remove every statue. Teach the history. We should never forget the crimes of the confederacy.

Rage away. Facts are facts.

(06-23-2020 08:14 AM)JacksonHall Wrote:  Do I resent all of this? You're damn right I do. This isn't about power hungry cops. Everyone has been victim of that to some extent. And if these protesters were really interested in equality, they'd go with a theme most everyone can agree on. That everyone deserves respect and to be treated fairly.

But that isn't the real narrative. What we have is a bunch of leftist, revisionist, anti-southern, anti-American carpetbaggers coming into states like mine destroying property and trying to shame white people for slavery. Look at these pictures and many of these protesters are white. I'm not ashamed of slavery because the Civil War ended over 100 years before I was born. And victimhood is never an appealing stance. Plenty of boat people have come to this America from war torn countries and got off their asses and established businesses. Native Americans have as big a right to ***** as anyone and they don't go out destroying property.

I wouldn't expect any of you people from northern states to understand. Maybe if a bunch of southern whites posing as supporters of BLM showed up in the north and started tearing down statues of hereos of your state you'd get it. Jackson, Ashby and Maury were defending their state, not taking a political position.

Thank you in advance for your Commie opposition to my post.

man.....

Facts for a leftist carpetbagger maybe. After all of the statues are torn down and all names removed, will they head to Egypt next and tear down the pyramids? Those were built by slaves. Or maybe they prefer something closer and go tear down the ones in Mexico.

Lol I don’t like your verifiable facts

(06-22-2020 11:51 PM)Purple Wrote:  Oh, well. There goes the narrative....

You just seem to like to go the extra yard.

So, "UVA Orthopedics Hall".

What are you gonna rename the other two?

(06-22-2020 03:20 PM)Dukester Wrote:  Once again - let's not make this political.

(06-22-2020 11:51 PM)Purple Wrote:  Oh, well. There goes the narrative....

I mean...does this not directly go against moderator guidance? Does it have a place in this thread?

(06-22-2020 03:33 PM)JMad03 Wrote:  The three buildings are Jackson, Ashby, and Maury.

While I am not a big fan of Alger or his style of speaking, I felt like he was at least acting as a good University President.
I know many may not like the decision, but I think it's the right move to make. I felt like he said the right things that needed to be said.
Also he did address the naming of James Madison University and that it is NOT going to be changed. I felt like his explanation made sense as to why it will not be changed as well.

This is not sarcasm...Why be half-assed about this? If this is really about slavery go all the way and rename the school. Just get it done all at once. Don't cherry pick and think that's going to placate the thought police. Because it won't. Seriously, just do it.