(02-11-2023 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 10:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 06:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 03:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 03:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Women who are happy to be pregnant rarely refer to the growing thing inside them as a fetus. It is usually referred to as the baby or the child. I have never heard of a woman "being with fetus". I have never heard a woman say the fetus just kicked me.

Sure. Some call it a baby. Some call it a fetus. Vive la différence. I am just explaining to you why I personally call it a fetus and it has nothing to do with being for or against abortion.

I just said that I have never heard a WOMAN say "the fetus just kicked me" or ANYBODY say of a pregnant woman that she is "with fetus". I have heard numerous women say "the baby just kicked me" and I have heard the phrase "with child". I think it is even in the Bible.

Of course, I also said women who are happy to be pregnant.

Maybe women who don't want to be pregnant wouldn't use that language.

Usually fetus is used by a pro-abortion person to describe what is to be aborted, often to avoid using words like "child" or "baby" to describe what is being killed.

Maybe it is similar to pro-death penalty people describing the condemned as a "monster" instead of a human being.

Often the usage is habitual, rather than intentional. To be clear, I am speaking in generalities. But call me the next time you hear a pro-choice person say they are for killing babies. That kind of rhetoric is the province of anti-abortionists, like GO. But the action s the same regardless.

I'm not sure that I need to be arguing this point with you guys as I was simply clarifying that my use of the term "fetus" was not political/moral/religious, etc. I just think it's the accurate way to describe the situation.

For sure there pro-choice advocates who do not want to humanize the fetus and therefore would not call it a baby. OTOH there are pro-life advocates who would not use the term fetus for the opposite political reason. I don't argue with any of that.

For me, though, it is a fetus. Sure, pregnant ladies say "the baby is kicking" but that doesn't mean it's accurate IMO. They also say things like "Oohhh... little Jimmy is really active today!" and I'm not going to refer to the fetus as "Little Jimmy" either. People commonly use plenty of terms that aren't scientifically accurate and that's OK... but those of us with a science background might not follow their lead.

I don’t think we are arguing. I think we are both clarifying our positions.

My position is that people have forever used words to make themselves feel good about the actions they take. For example, racial cleansing instead of genocide.

I think most uses of fetus fall in this category, as a preferred way of avoiding saying they are OK with killing babies as long as it is someone else’s choice.

I support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I also am OK with killing babies. The difference is, I will call them babies, not some technical term to make it seem as though they are something other than a baby.

I also support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I am OK with killing babies or killing fetuses or whatever term works for you. The difference is, I when I r to them as fetuses as I feel that is the accurate term.

(02-11-2023 12:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 10:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 06:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 03:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sure. Some call it a baby. Some call it a fetus. Vive la différence. I am just explaining to you why I personally call it a fetus and it has nothing to do with being for or against abortion.

I just said that I have never heard a WOMAN say "the fetus just kicked me" or ANYBODY say of a pregnant woman that she is "with fetus". I have heard numerous women say "the baby just kicked me" and I have heard the phrase "with child". I think it is even in the Bible.

Of course, I also said women who are happy to be pregnant.

Maybe women who don't want to be pregnant wouldn't use that language.

Usually fetus is used by a pro-abortion person to describe what is to be aborted, often to avoid using words like "child" or "baby" to describe what is being killed.

Maybe it is similar to pro-death penalty people describing the condemned as a "monster" instead of a human being.

Often the usage is habitual, rather than intentional. To be clear, I am speaking in generalities. But call me the next time you hear a pro-choice person say they are for killing babies. That kind of rhetoric is the province of anti-abortionists, like GO. But the action s the same regardless.

I'm not sure that I need to be arguing this point with you guys as I was simply clarifying that my use of the term "fetus" was not political/moral/religious, etc. I just think it's the accurate way to describe the situation.

For sure there pro-choice advocates who do not want to humanize the fetus and therefore would not call it a baby. OTOH there are pro-life advocates who would not use the term fetus for the opposite political reason. I don't argue with any of that.

For me, though, it is a fetus. Sure, pregnant ladies say "the baby is kicking" but that doesn't mean it's accurate IMO. They also say things like "Oohhh... little Jimmy is really active today!" and I'm not going to refer to the fetus as "Little Jimmy" either. People commonly use plenty of terms that aren't scientifically accurate and that's OK... but those of us with a science background might not follow their lead.

I don’t think we are arguing. I think we are both clarifying our positions.

My position is that people have forever used words to make themselves feel good about the actions they take. For example, racial cleansing instead of genocide.

I think most uses of fetus fall in this category, as a preferred way of avoiding saying they are OK with killing babies as long as it is someone else’s choice.

I support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I also am OK with killing babies. The difference is, I will call them babies, not some technical term to make it seem as though they are something other than a baby.

I also support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I am OK with killing babies or killing fetuses or whatever term works for you. The difference is, I when I r to them as fetuses as I feel that is the accurate term.

Funny, I think babies is just as accurate. Or child. We could also refer to them accurately as humans-in-development.

Choice of terms can be unimportant, or it could be very important to the chooser.

I have had this similar discussion with a pro-choicer whose preferred nomenclature of the fetus/baby was “clump of cells”.

(02-11-2023 12:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 10:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 06:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 03:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sure. Some call it a baby. Some call it a fetus. Vive la différence. I am just explaining to you why I personally call it a fetus and it has nothing to do with being for or against abortion.

I just said that I have never heard a WOMAN say "the fetus just kicked me" or ANYBODY say of a pregnant woman that she is "with fetus". I have heard numerous women say "the baby just kicked me" and I have heard the phrase "with child". I think it is even in the Bible.

Of course, I also said women who are happy to be pregnant.

Maybe women who don't want to be pregnant wouldn't use that language.

Usually fetus is used by a pro-abortion person to describe what is to be aborted, often to avoid using words like "child" or "baby" to describe what is being killed.

Maybe it is similar to pro-death penalty people describing the condemned as a "monster" instead of a human being.

Often the usage is habitual, rather than intentional. To be clear, I am speaking in generalities. But call me the next time you hear a pro-choice person say they are for killing babies. That kind of rhetoric is the province of anti-abortionists, like GO. But the action s the same regardless.

I'm not sure that I need to be arguing this point with you guys as I was simply clarifying that my use of the term "fetus" was not political/moral/religious, etc. I just think it's the accurate way to describe the situation.

For sure there pro-choice advocates who do not want to humanize the fetus and therefore would not call it a baby. OTOH there are pro-life advocates who would not use the term fetus for the opposite political reason. I don't argue with any of that.

For me, though, it is a fetus. Sure, pregnant ladies say "the baby is kicking" but that doesn't mean it's accurate IMO. They also say things like "Oohhh... little Jimmy is really active today!" and I'm not going to refer to the fetus as "Little Jimmy" either. People commonly use plenty of terms that aren't scientifically accurate and that's OK... but those of us with a science background might not follow their lead.

I don’t think we are arguing. I think we are both clarifying our positions.

My position is that people have forever used words to make themselves feel good about the actions they take. For example, racial cleansing instead of genocide.

I think most uses of fetus fall in this category, as a preferred way of avoiding saying they are OK with killing babies as long as it is someone else’s choice.

I support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I also am OK with killing babies. The difference is, I will call them babies, not some technical term to make it seem as though they are something other than a baby.

I also support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I am OK with killing babies or killing fetuses or whatever term works for you. The difference is, I when I r to them as fetuses as I feel that is the accurate term.

I seem to remember you having kids.

When your wife was expecting, did you feel her belly and accurately exclaim ‘wow, I felt the fetus kick’? Because of the accurateness of the word is seeming important….

(02-11-2023 05:18 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 12:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 10:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 06:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I just said that I have never heard a WOMAN say "the fetus just kicked me" or ANYBODY say of a pregnant woman that she is "with fetus". I have heard numerous women say "the baby just kicked me" and I have heard the phrase "with child". I think it is even in the Bible.

Of course, I also said women who are happy to be pregnant.

Maybe women who don't want to be pregnant wouldn't use that language.

Usually fetus is used by a pro-abortion person to describe what is to be aborted, often to avoid using words like "child" or "baby" to describe what is being killed.

Maybe it is similar to pro-death penalty people describing the condemned as a "monster" instead of a human being.

Often the usage is habitual, rather than intentional. To be clear, I am speaking in generalities. But call me the next time you hear a pro-choice person say they are for killing babies. That kind of rhetoric is the province of anti-abortionists, like GO. But the action s the same regardless.

I'm not sure that I need to be arguing this point with you guys as I was simply clarifying that my use of the term "fetus" was not political/moral/religious, etc. I just think it's the accurate way to describe the situation.

For sure there pro-choice advocates who do not want to humanize the fetus and therefore would not call it a baby. OTOH there are pro-life advocates who would not use the term fetus for the opposite political reason. I don't argue with any of that.

For me, though, it is a fetus. Sure, pregnant ladies say "the baby is kicking" but that doesn't mean it's accurate IMO. They also say things like "Oohhh... little Jimmy is really active today!" and I'm not going to refer to the fetus as "Little Jimmy" either. People commonly use plenty of terms that aren't scientifically accurate and that's OK... but those of us with a science background might not follow their lead.

I don’t think we are arguing. I think we are both clarifying our positions.

My position is that people have forever used words to make themselves feel good about the actions they take. For example, racial cleansing instead of genocide.

I think most uses of fetus fall in this category, as a preferred way of avoiding saying they are OK with killing babies as long as it is someone else’s choice.

I support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I also am OK with killing babies. The difference is, I will call them babies, not some technical term to make it seem as though they are something other than a baby.

I also support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I am OK with killing babies or killing fetuses or whatever term works for you. The difference is, I when I r to them as fetuses as I feel that is the accurate term.

I seem to remember you having kids.

When your wife was expecting, did you feel her belly and accurately exclaim ‘wow, I felt the fetus kick’? Because of the accurateness of the word is seeming important….

Lots of people say "I broke my leg" instead the more technical "I fractured my lower extremity".

Most say "I had a heart attack" instead of "I had a cardiac infarction".

And most say "I got a speeding ticket" instead of "I was cited for excessive speed".

My ex used to go shopping and then tell me how much money she saved me.

I have no problem with 93 using fetus. He seems well aware. I have a bit of a problem with some of the people who use fetus to deflect criticism or question over abortion.

I used to ask pro-choicers when the fetus turned into a baby. Turns out that question makes some of them angry.

I also used to say I supported the right of a mother to kill her child. Seems leaving out the word "unborn" makes a difference to some people. Kind of like some prefer "undocumented" alien to "illegal" alien, and also prefer "immigrant" to "alien". My personal preference is "illegal alien" to describe those who have entered illegally.

Like I said, though, I have seen world before and after RvW. Both have their plusses and minuses. Therefore my compromise.

(02-11-2023 05:18 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 12:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2023 10:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 06:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I just said that I have never heard a WOMAN say "the fetus just kicked me" or ANYBODY say of a pregnant woman that she is "with fetus". I have heard numerous women say "the baby just kicked me" and I have heard the phrase "with child". I think it is even in the Bible.

Of course, I also said women who are happy to be pregnant.

Maybe women who don't want to be pregnant wouldn't use that language.

Usually fetus is used by a pro-abortion person to describe what is to be aborted, often to avoid using words like "child" or "baby" to describe what is being killed.

Maybe it is similar to pro-death penalty people describing the condemned as a "monster" instead of a human being.

Often the usage is habitual, rather than intentional. To be clear, I am speaking in generalities. But call me the next time you hear a pro-choice person say they are for killing babies. That kind of rhetoric is the province of anti-abortionists, like GO. But the action s the same regardless.

I'm not sure that I need to be arguing this point with you guys as I was simply clarifying that my use of the term "fetus" was not political/moral/religious, etc. I just think it's the accurate way to describe the situation.

For sure there pro-choice advocates who do not want to humanize the fetus and therefore would not call it a baby. OTOH there are pro-life advocates who would not use the term fetus for the opposite political reason. I don't argue with any of that.

For me, though, it is a fetus. Sure, pregnant ladies say "the baby is kicking" but that doesn't mean it's accurate IMO. They also say things like "Oohhh... little Jimmy is really active today!" and I'm not going to refer to the fetus as "Little Jimmy" either. People commonly use plenty of terms that aren't scientifically accurate and that's OK... but those of us with a science background might not follow their lead.

I don’t think we are arguing. I think we are both clarifying our positions.

My position is that people have forever used words to make themselves feel good about the actions they take. For example, racial cleansing instead of genocide.

I think most uses of fetus fall in this category, as a preferred way of avoiding saying they are OK with killing babies as long as it is someone else’s choice.

I support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I also am OK with killing babies. The difference is, I will call them babies, not some technical term to make it seem as though they are something other than a baby.

I also support a compromise when some abortion is allowed, so I guess I am OK with killing babies or killing fetuses or whatever term works for you. The difference is, I when I r to them as fetuses as I feel that is the accurate term.

I seem to remember you having kids.

When your wife was expecting, did you feel her belly and accurately exclaim ‘wow, I felt the fetus kick’? Because of the accurateness of the word is seeming important….

Tanq, tried to send private message but I'm on your ignore list.

(02-11-2023 07:45 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, tried to send private message but I'm on your ignore list.

Fort Bend Owl did that to me: he sent me a long, distorted harangue by PM, then put me on Ignore before I could respond. Such a man!

(02-10-2023 02:22 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  So you either have to decide if it is OK or if it isn't. I reluctantly fall on the side of keeping abortion legal.

Indeed, drawings lines is difficult. Over the centuries, opinions have differed on, or example, what types of criminals should be executed (for example, in English common law, ALL felonies originally carried the death penalty); how many workers should die in occupational accidents; or when trespassers may be shot. In each case, the consensus over the last century and a half has moved toward allowing fewer and fewer such deaths, not more and more.

If the long-term trend is one of growing empathy for the plight of convicted criminals (who choose their crimes), laborers (who choose their occupations), and trespassers (who chose their entries), it is not surprising that a great many should feel at least some fraction of empathy for unborn children. On the contrary, the surprising thing is that, in this last case, there are so many people so intent on moving the line not toward allowing fewer killings (as in most spheres of human existence), but toward allowing more.

Quote:My ex used to go shopping and then tell me how much money she saved me.

I have no problem with 93 using fetus. He seems well aware. I have a bit of a problem with some of the people who use fetus to deflect criticism or question over abortion.

I think we must share an 'ex'.

Agree that I don't see 93 as using the term to de-sensitize it. Abortion is IMO, the very definition of 'necessary evil'. I just want it to be very early on... for a number of reasons... including but not limited to 'the health of the mother'.

Many people DO use terms like that to de-sensitize it. Like how casinos use chips rather than dollars.

Rather than all these arguments over 24 weeks or 20 weeks or 16 weeks, I wish we'd have more arguments about 'why not 8 weeks' and then put our efforts and energies in to addressing the obstacles to something like 8 weeks.

I feel like we ask that question, we hit a barrier (usually, you may not know you're pregnant yet) and the conversation stops.... but the REALITY is that whether you know it or not, 'what you do' impacts your pregnancy... so there is value in 'knowing' early... regardless of your decision. I also think that 'knowing early' could lead to better conversations with the father, or better thoughts by that father before you are pregnant so as to avoid some of the pressure they often put on mothers.

If we want to talk about 'empowering women' when it comes to their pregnancy issues, which is mostly what we talk about when 'defending' abortion... then early detection, having men be more responsible, having men not simply 'take their chances' on Maury Povich where they can 'slut shame' the mother should all be part of that... and tools that prevent pregnancy either before, or very shortly thereafter AS WELL as tools that inform you immediately (if medically possible) or at least as soon as technologically possible should absolutely be 'tools of empowerment'.

The idea that women should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy very very late (not saying 93 that it's your personal position nor anyone's on here) is the 'ultimate' in empowerment is just a lie. The ultimate in empowerment would be 100% effective, simple birth control.... if you don't want to get pregnant you don't, and if you do, you can. THAT is empowerment. If you're pregnant and don't know it until 16+ weeks, you've already potentially hampered your baby's development... and women by and large don't want that. Early detection is more empowering than ignorance. It's only empowering if you already know you don't want the baby. If you might want it, your decision is now going to be impacted by your lack of knowledge and potentially guilt over what you did while pregnant.

(02-12-2023 07:34 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  Indeed, drawings lines is difficult. Over the centuries, opinions have differed on, or example, what types of criminals should be executed (for example, in English common law, ALL felonies originally carried the death penalty); how many workers should die in occupational accidents; or when trespassers may be shot. In each case, the consensus over the last century and a half has moved toward allowing fewer and fewer such deaths, not more and more.

If the long-term trend is one of growing empathy for the plight of convicted criminals (who choose their crimes), laborers (who choose their occupations), and trespassers (who chose their entries), it is not surprising that a great many should feel at least some fraction of empathy for unborn children. On the contrary, the surprising thing is that, in this last case, there are so many people so intent on moving the line not toward allowing fewer killings (as in most spheres of human existence), but toward allowing more.

no, no, no, man...they want Barabbas...no cash bail, y'know?...

Buildings with lighted crosses to honor Good Friday in April 1956. Left to right: 60 Wall Tower, 20 Exchange Place (formerly known as City Bank Farmers Trust Co.) and 40 Wall Street. Photo taken on April 5, 1956. (Ed Peters/NY Daily News Archive via Getty Images)

Quote: On Good Friday years ago, NYC skyscrapers lit up with crosses and showed a nation that embraced faith https://t.co/6IPuu9doN6

— Fox News (@FoxNews) April 7, 2023

Quote: 1956: Skyscrapers in New York City display crosses for Easter to celebrate Jesus who says: I give my life for you.

2019: Skyscraper in New York City lit up pink to celebrate abortion which says: YOU give your life for ME.

pic.twitter.com/tLRuUf2Q0f

— SBA Pro-Life America (@sbaprolife) January 29, 2019

Quote: How far we have fallen

— KJMooney (@feistywench304) April 7, 2023

Quote: It’s not too late to go back

— Anthony Maze (@antmaze29) April 7, 2023

link: https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1...2002854912

This is just yet another "normal Democrat voter",
you know, just an average "progressive", "kollege-edukated" Leftist...
...the model of the Democratic Party of today.
You can totally relate, can't you?