A serious video with a little sarcastic humor mixed in, but I generally agree with his points...

video link here: Why I Changed My Mind About Evil! (I Was WRONG)

another serious video, from a humorist, that tells it like it really is...

Quote: “I am so tired of talking about Woke culture. That’s why it’s gone too far more than anything else…

“No, No, Free speech is not some right-wing reframing of whatever, it’s the foundation of Western civilization. Upon which this civilization is built and the alignment values that led to it.

“The only way to deal with the problem of racism is to treat people on the content of their character. And nothing else. And the fact that WOKE culture seeks to overturn that is a new form of racism that we must all oppose.”

“[Climate Change will be decided] by poor people in Asia and Latin America who don’t care about saving the planet—because they’re poor.”...

“One-hundred-and-twenty million people in China do not have enough food. That means their immune system is breaking down because they do not have enough food.

“Where do you think Climate Change ranks in Xi Jinping’s list of priorities?

“You’re not going to get these people to stay poor. You’re not going to get them to not want to be richer.”...

“To make scientific and technological breakthroughs that will create the clean energy that is not only clean, but cheap.” {Otherwise, new technology are basically worthless unless they make economic sense. The problem with Leftist WOKE ideology is it make zero economic sense, and that fact is what makes WOKE culture the errand of fools and ultimately unworkable no matter how much the Left screams.}

“And the only thing that wokeness has to offer in exchange is to brainwash bright, young minds like you to believe that you are victims. To believe that you have no agency. To believe that what you must do to improve the world is to complain, is to protest. Is to throw soup on paintings.”

Quote: “The only way to deal with the problem of racism is to treat people on the content of their character. And nothing else. And the fact that WOKE culture seeks to overturn that is a new form of racism that we must all oppose.”

Every time I try to promote treating everybody the same - on their merits (contents of their character), the pro-racists tell me that it is necessary to discriminate among people based on their race in order to fight racism.

(01-17-2023 11:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

Quote: “The only way to deal with the problem of racism is to treat people on the content of their character. And nothing else. And the fact that WOKE culture seeks to overturn that is a new form of racism that we must all oppose.”

Every time I try to promote treating everybody the same - on their merits (contents of their character), the pro-racists tell me that it is necessary to discriminate among people based on their race in order to fight racism.

I know I am going to regret wading into this, but....


This is a perfectly noble sentiment and i sympathize with it. And particularly in day to day interactions/ interpersonal relationships it is how I live my life as well. The term "woke" has become so loaded and political that I am not going to address it. I am also only going to focus on the racial element. I admit I am dumbfounded by the trans/ gender identity issues that have also become part of the Woke discussion.

I don't know the answer to structural inequailty where it comes to black citizens, and I don't subscribe to the more radical proposals being floated about reparations in CA for example. But I think there needs to be a common ground of at least acknowledging that just "treating everybody the same" today will largely ensure that a large segment of the black population will remain stuck in generally a lower class of society compared to the white population. Again- I don't know the answer, but the vast majority of the black population was subjected to slave labor for hundreds of years up until ~160 years ago- and when they were freed they had to deal with another 100 years of structural and societal racism (some of which endures today). I certainly believe our society today is the freest it has ever been, and the growth of the black middle and upper class is an indicator that it's not impossible for individuals to improve their station, but when we essentially say that those in poverty or tough situations should "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" I think we should ackowledge that means something different to the average black person than it does the average white person. I know most have seen the graphic of a 100 yard race where the black person starts at the starting line and the white person starts at the 90 yard mark (or somewhere that is in front of the starting line- I don't want to get in an argument about the right starting line). I think that is a good metaphor for the inequailty that exists today.
I am not absolving any individuals of poor decision making causing them not to achieve. But I think it's hard to argue that the average white child still has a significant advantage over the average black child because where they start is not the same place. And that is the result of a few hundred years of governmental policy along with generally accepted racism (again,it's much, much better today).

So, how does a government address that inequality? or are their some that do not accept my premise? I don't know the answers but I think a start is acknowledging realities of the situation and particularly how we got here. I know in my personal life that acknowledgement is greatly appreciated.

OO- I know this is in response to your comment, but that was just my jumping off point. I am not presuming to know anything more about your thoughts on the matter and my response was not meant to be directly responding to you personally.

(01-17-2023 02:58 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(01-17-2023 11:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

Quote: “The only way to deal with the problem of racism is to treat people on the content of their character. And nothing else. And the fact that WOKE culture seeks to overturn that is a new form of racism that we must all oppose.”

Every time I try to promote treating everybody the same - on their merits (contents of their character), the pro-racists tell me that it is necessary to discriminate among people based on their race in order to fight racism.

I know I am going to regret wading into this, but....


This is a perfectly noble sentiment and i sympathize with it. And particularly in day to day interactions/ interpersonal relationships it is how I live my life as well. The term "woke" has become so loaded and political that I am not going to address it. I am also only going to focus on the racial element. I admit I am dumbfounded by the trans/ gender identity issues that have also become part of the Woke discussion.

I don't know the answer to structural inequailty where it comes to black citizens, and I don't subscribe to the more radical proposals being floated about reparations in CA for example. But I think there needs to be a common ground of at least acknowledging that just "treating everybody the same" today will largely ensure that a large segment of the black population will remain stuck in generally a lower class of society compared to the white population. Again- I don't know the answer, but the vast majority of the black population was subjected to slave labor for hundreds of years up until ~160 years ago- and when they were freed they had to deal with another 100 years of structural and societal racism (some of which endures today). I certainly believe our society today is the freest it has ever been, and the growth of the black middle and upper class is an indicator that it's not impossible for individuals to improve their station, but when we essentially say that those in poverty or tough situations should "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" I think we should ackowledge that means something different to the average black person than it does the average white person. I know most have seen the graphic of a 100 yard race where the black person starts at the starting line and the white person starts at the 90 yard mark (or somewhere that is in front of the starting line- I don't want to get in an argument about the right starting line). I think that is a good metaphor for the inequailty that exists today.
I am not absolving any individuals of poor decision making causing them not to achieve. But I think it's hard to argue that the average white child still has a significant advantage over the average black child because where they start is not the same place. And that is the result of a few hundred years of governmental policy along with generally accepted racism (again,it's much, much better today).

So, how does a government address that inequality? or are their some that do not accept my premise? I don't know the answers but I think a start is acknowledging realities of the situation and particularly how we got here. I know in my personal life that acknowledgement is greatly appreciated.

OO- I know this is in response to your comment, but that was just my jumping off point. I am not presuming to know anything more about your thoughts on the matter and my response was not meant to be directly responding to you personally.

Seems like we have only two choices:

1. Treat everybody the same, regardless of race,
2. Treat people differently based on race.

Both approaches have pluses and minuses. But I was brought up to believe two wrongs don’t make a right.

Therefore,

I chose option 1.

A persistent problem with using skin color (or similar superficial demographic classifications) as a proxy for remediable disadvantage is that, like most such classifications, it is both seriously under-inclusive (it fails to capture many people who are disadvantaged) and seriously over-inclusive (it captures many people who are not).

In other words, it is a textbook case of a classification that is more invidious than rational.

This is both sound ethical principle and well-settled law -- yet for some reason it is eagerly overlooked.

(01-17-2023 02:58 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(01-17-2023 11:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

Quote: “The only way to deal with the problem of racism is to treat people on the content of their character. And nothing else. And the fact that WOKE culture seeks to overturn that is a new form of racism that we must all oppose.”

Every time I try to promote treating everybody the same - on their merits (contents of their character), the pro-racists tell me that it is necessary to discriminate among people based on their race in order to fight racism.

I know I am going to regret wading into this, but....


This is a perfectly noble sentiment and i sympathize with it. And particularly in day to day interactions/ interpersonal relationships it is how I live my life as well. The term "woke" has become so loaded and political that I am not going to address it. I am also only going to focus on the racial element. I admit I am dumbfounded by the trans/ gender identity issues that have also become part of the Woke discussion.

I don't know the answer to structural inequailty where it comes to black citizens, and I don't subscribe to the more radical proposals being floated about reparations in CA for example. But I think there needs to be a common ground of at least acknowledging that just "treating everybody the same" today will largely ensure that a large segment of the black population will remain stuck in generally a lower class of society compared to the white population. Again- I don't know the answer, but the vast majority of the black population was subjected to slave labor for hundreds of years up until ~160 years ago- and when they were freed they had to deal with another 100 years of structural and societal racism (some of which endures today). I certainly believe our society today is the freest it has ever been, and the growth of the black middle and upper class is an indicator that it's not impossible for individuals to improve their station, but when we essentially say that those in poverty or tough situations should "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" I think we should ackowledge that means something different to the average black person than it does the average white person. I know most have seen the graphic of a 100 yard race where the black person starts at the starting line and the white person starts at the 90 yard mark (or somewhere that is in front of the starting line- I don't want to get in an argument about the right starting line). I think that is a good metaphor for the inequailty that exists today.
I am not absolving any individuals of poor decision making causing them not to achieve. But I think it's hard to argue that the average white child still has a significant advantage over the average black child because where they start is not the same place. And that is the result of a few hundred years of governmental policy along with generally accepted racism (again,it's much, much better today).

So, how does a government address that inequality? or are their some that do not accept my premise? I don't know the answers but I think a start is acknowledging realities of the situation and particularly how we got here. I know in my personal life that acknowledgement is greatly appreciated.

OO- I know this is in response to your comment, but that was just my jumping off point. I am not presuming to know anything more about your thoughts on the matter and my response was not meant to be directly responding to you personally.

Beautifully said. This concept however, is difficult to grasp and even more difficult to actually address. It is much easier just to call people who believe in affirmative action racists.

Speaking of difficulty grasping concepts!

But yes, people who are skeptical of racial preferences are stupid, mentally lazy, and slanderous. Glad we sewed that up.

(01-17-2023 02:58 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  So, how does a government address that inequality?

SHOULD a government address that inequality?

Why THAT inequality, and not all the others?

Where is the government action to help short people get NBA jobs or to help ugly people get movie contracts?

We all graduated from a school where nearly all the students are Mensa qualified. Is it fair to exclude those who were born less gifted? Is it fair, if we admit them, to not give them degrees in the name of equity?

None of us were born equal. Some had two parents, some none, who were actively interest in our lives. Some were born in Kentucky, some in NYC. Some were born with the genes to be be tall and good looking, some...not.

(01-17-2023 10:51 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  It is much easier just to call people who believe in affirmative action racists.

What is the proper term for somebody who believes in unequal treatment based on race?

(don't feel any pressure to answer that, 93. I know you might be busy.)
But anybody else,, I would like to hear your thoughts on that question.

(01-18-2023 11:15 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-17-2023 10:51 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  It is much easier just to call people who believe in affirmative action racists.

What is the proper term for somebody who believes in unequal treatment based on race?

(don't feel any pressure to answer that, 93. I know you might be busy.)
But anybody else,, I would like to hear your thoughts on that question.

To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

How about when an admissions officer at a university includes a flier for the Black Student Union in the acceptance packets for black students but not for white students. Is that person racist?

(01-18-2023 11:15 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-17-2023 10:51 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  It is much easier just to call people who believe in affirmative action racists.

What is the proper term for somebody who believes in unequal treatment based on race?

(don't feel any pressure to answer that, 93. I know you might be busy.)
But anybody else,, I would like to hear your thoughts on that question.

ooh, that's hard...would that be, uh, trans???

(01-18-2023 11:13 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-17-2023 02:58 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  So, how does a government address that inequality?

SHOULD a government address that inequality?

Why THAT inequality, and not all the others?

Where is the government action to help short people get NBA jobs or to help ugly people get movie contracts?

You don't recognize the difference between physical traits based on genetics versus centuries of systemic racism causing a difference in education/wealth/etc. in black people versus white people in America?

(01-18-2023 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

(01-18-2023 11:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

Now he is just badgering me to answer his question. I'm busy!!!!! Maybe I will get to it in a few days.,

(01-18-2023 11:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

Now he is just badgering me to answer his question. I'm busy!!!!! Maybe I will get to it in a few days.,

Cool. Get to it when you can. You keep throwing out your personal definition of racism and you use it to call people racists and I'm asking you to defend it. No rush.

(01-18-2023 11:43 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  To me (most people?) the term "racist" implies that one thinks certain races are inferior in some way.

I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

Now he is just badgering me to answer his question. I'm busy!!!!! Maybe I will get to it in a few days.,

Cool. Get to it when you can. You keep throwing out your personal definition of racism and you use it to call people racists and I'm asking you to defend it. No rush.

Already did defend it, in a way you have not addressed. Your silly little gotcha question really has no bearing on the question.

I also had a question, in the post (#10) before you posed your pugilistic question. Nobody, but nobody, has addressed that yet.

(01-18-2023 11:51 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:43 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

Now he is just badgering me to answer his question. I'm busy!!!!! Maybe I will get to it in a few days.,

Cool. Get to it when you can. You keep throwing out your personal definition of racism and you use it to call people racists and I'm asking you to defend it. No rush.

Already did defend it, in a way you have not addressed. Your silly little gotcha question really has no bearing on the question.

I also had a question, in the post (#10) before you posed your pugilistic question. Nobody, but nobody, has addressed that yet.

I think the definition of "racist" is a bit silly and I gave you a scenario where you would apparently (by your own definition) call somebody a racist and I asked you to comment. Clearly you have no interest in commenting on the scenario so no problem... have fun calling non-racist people "racists" I guess. Whatever floats your boat. I believe in affirmative action so I am clearly a racist as well. You got me, OO!

(01-18-2023 11:51 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:43 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I DO think "certain" Races are "inferior" in "some" way. For example, I think whites as a race are slower than blacks. How else to interpret the plethora of black athletes in certain sports and events?

Of course, sports is a meritocracy. We don't have any rules requiring a certain number of white athletes at a given position within a given sport.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

But I think in America, we should should treat everybody as equal under the law. Equal opportunity to make good use of whatever talents and abilities God gave us. Like in sports.

Racists, OTOH, are fine with different treatments based on race.

Again... is that admissions officer a racist?

Now he is just badgering me to answer his question. I'm busy!!!!! Maybe I will get to it in a few days.,

Cool. Get to it when you can. You keep throwing out your personal definition of racism and you use it to call people racists and I'm asking you to defend it. No rush.

Already did defend it, in a way you have not addressed. Your silly little gotcha question really has no bearing on the question.

I also had a question, in the post (#10) before you posed your pugilistic question. Nobody, but nobody, has addressed that yet.

And I responded to your question in post #10.