(08-09-2011 04:52 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(08-08-2011 08:21 PM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  I'm not pimping any school....and if I was, I sure as hell wouldn't be pimping App State. But give credit where credit is due. App State nearly doubles the average attendance of Buffalo, Akron, Kent, Eastern Michigan and other comparable Mac schools. At least they got fans

A season's average attendance does not necessarily indicate fan numbers. For example, Buffalo averaged 16K in our championship season, mostly because fans were just starting to catch on to watching a winning product, for a change. Yet, they came out for the biggest game. We brought 30K to the International Bowl and had 116,000 households in WNY watching the game as part of the ~2M nationwide viewing it.

I'm talking overall attendance in the Mac vs. what App State or Delaware could bring. I remember going to Ball State, Akron, Eastern Michigan, Kent etc and there were more Marshall fans in the stands than the actual home team had. Delaware would be my first choice but App brings the fans also.

(08-09-2011 05:09 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  The MAC office hasn't stated anything either way about what they're looking for in candidates. Mostly because they haven't ever admited to actually be looking for new schools, even when they were busy adding Temple and UMass.

ISU has come a long, long way in the past decade. If you don't like the Redbirds, you could always try convincing Missouri State to join. Good luck with that.

The Dakota schools are not viable, and I'm glad nobody suggested them yet. Youngstown State is pointless, we don't need any more Ohio schools and they would have to double their athletic budget just to get on par with the lowest-spending MAC schools. Anything south of Virginia doesn't fit culturally.

The desirable traits for candidates the MAC offices stated within the last 1 1/2 years would not change. Why would they? It's mainly academics, markets, possible bowl opportunities.

ISU is still a resource-poor institution in a tiny market. No law school, no med, no engineering, very few grad programs, producing mostly teachers. And their financials mirror these facts. It's why their campus master plan last year specifically stated they have no goal of moving up. I don't think any of the MVC schools fit what the MAC desires. If we didn't accept WKU when it was looking to move up from the MVFC, no others have a shot.

It's only a hypothetical exercise anyway. Kit-Kat keeps trying to make the issue real:

(08-08-2011 03:29 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  ....many are wondering if and when the MAC moves to 16.

Nope, you are the only one truly wondering.

(08-09-2011 11:07 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 05:09 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  The MAC office hasn't stated anything either way about what they're looking for in candidates. Mostly because they haven't ever admited to actually be looking for new schools, even when they were busy adding Temple and UMass.

ISU has come a long, long way in the past decade. If you don't like the Redbirds, you could always try convincing Missouri State to join. Good luck with that.

The Dakota schools are not viable, and I'm glad nobody suggested them yet. Youngstown State is pointless, we don't need any more Ohio schools and they would have to double their athletic budget just to get on par with the lowest-spending MAC schools. Anything south of Virginia doesn't fit culturally.

The desirable traits for candidates the MAC offices stated within the last 1 1/2 years would not change. Why would they? It's mainly academics, markets, possible bowl opportunities.

ISU is still a resource-poor institution in a tiny market. No law school, no med, no engineering, very few grad programs, producing mostly teachers. And their financials mirror these facts. It's why their campus master plan last year specifically stated they have no goal of moving up. I don't think any of the MVC schools fit what the MAC desires. If we didn't accept WKU when it was looking to move up, no others have a shot.

It's only a hypothetical exercise anyway. Kit-Kat keeps trying to make the issue real:

(08-08-2011 03:29 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  ....many are wondering if and when the MAC moves to 16.

Nope, you are the only one truly wondering.

THIS!

We have taken to starting threads based upon whatever we dreamed up in the shower. This is just a step below an actual rumor.

(08-09-2011 08:14 AM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

Louis Kitton Wrote:App could go directly into CUSA from the SoCon and do just fine.

Thats BS. There is no way that App could jump from its current 12 Million athletic budget to a comparable CUSA budget of around 22-35 Million. You have to be realistic. Only the Mac and Sunbelt operate with athletic budgets that are currently attainable for App State. Besides, App would be behind the 8-ball when it comes competing with ECU for players. Simply isnt gonna happen.

FWIW, MAC budgets average 20-28 milllion. Miami is at 26 million, Ohio with 16 sports is at 24 milllon. Both are in the upper quartile of budget size for a non-AQ school.

Both have larger budgets than CUSA Marshall.

Marshall can't even afford to send its coach to the CUSA media day...

(08-09-2011 05:09 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  The MAC office hasn't stated anything either way about what they're looking for in candidates. Mostly because they haven't ever admited to actually be looking for new schools, even when they were busy adding Temple and UMass.

ISU has come a long, long way in the past decade. If you don't like the Redbirds, you could always try convincing Missouri State to join. Good luck with that.

Illinois State wouldn't be a bad addition, probably the only viable addition in the West. They do need to expand their stadium beyond 15,000 to 25,000 as planned. Coming up with a dontation for that will be tough. Going back to the mid 90's, the candidates the MAC office talked the most about were Illinois State and UMass. Once Temple came into the picture that discussion became UMass and Stony Brook.

JMU should be a #1 target for the MAC because they are sitting on a talent rich VA/MD area with no other MAC team but its an area heavily recruited by MAC East schools. Stadium is no longer an issue at 25,000 seats they are MAC ready. If the MAC could get James Madison as a replacement for Eastern Michigan (who has been close to a boot several times over the years) that might be even better than going to 16.

I: UMass, Temple, JMU, Buffalo, Akron, Kent State, Ohio
II: No. IL, CMU, WMU, Ball St, Toledo, BGSU, Miami

Play a 14 game MAC basketball schedule to accomadate Temple's RPI concerns and there you go...

(08-09-2011 01:14 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 08:14 AM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

Louis Kitton Wrote:App could go directly into CUSA from the SoCon and do just fine.

Thats BS. There is no way that App could jump from its current 12 Million athletic budget to a comparable CUSA budget of around 22-35 Million. You have to be realistic. Only the Mac and Sunbelt operate with athletic budgets that are currently attainable for App State. Besides, App would be behind the 8-ball when it comes competing with ECU for players. Simply isnt gonna happen.

FWIW, MAC budgets average 20-28 milllion. Miami is at 26 million, Ohio with 16 sports is at 24 milllon. Both are in the upper quartile of budget size for a non-AQ school.

Both have larger budgets than CUSA Marshall.

Thanks LK, I was just about to point out that UB was around 25 Million. Really I think if a program is spending 12 million and can get to MAC spending it can get to CUSA spending, there is really not that huge a difference

(08-09-2011 01:40 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 01:14 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 08:14 AM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

Louis Kitton Wrote:App could go directly into CUSA from the SoCon and do just fine.

Thats BS. There is no way that App could jump from its current 12 Million athletic budget to a comparable CUSA budget of around 22-35 Million. You have to be realistic. Only the Mac and Sunbelt operate with athletic budgets that are currently attainable for App State. Besides, App would be behind the 8-ball when it comes competing with ECU for players. Simply isnt gonna happen.

FWIW, MAC budgets average 20-28 milllion. Miami is at 26 million, Ohio with 16 sports is at 24 milllon. Both are in the upper quartile of budget size for a non-AQ school.

Both have larger budgets than CUSA Marshall.

Thanks LK, I was just about to point out that UB was around 25 Million. Really I think if a program is spending 12 million and can get to MAC spending it can get to CUSA spending, there is really not that huge a difference

One of the reasons why the average CUSA budget is higher too is beacause the private schools (Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, Rice) have higher costs for scholarship tuition.

(08-09-2011 01:14 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 08:14 AM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

Louis Kitton Wrote:App could go directly into CUSA from the SoCon and do just fine.

Thats BS. There is no way that App could jump from its current 12 Million athletic budget to a comparable CUSA budget of around 22-35 Million. You have to be realistic. Only the Mac and Sunbelt operate with athletic budgets that are currently attainable for App State. Besides, App would be behind the 8-ball when it comes competing with ECU for players. Simply isnt gonna happen.

FWIW, MAC budgets average 20-28 milllion. Miami is at 26 million, Ohio with 16 sports is at 24 milllon. Both are in the upper quartile of budget size for a non-AQ school.

Both have larger budgets than CUSA Marshall.

...LOL. I dont know where you are getting your info but our AD announced earlier this year around the time of the new Fox TV deal for CUSA that our budget would bump to around the 28 Mill range for the 2011-2012 budget year.

The more I think about it, the Mac might be to much of a jump for App State. The Sunbelt may be the only realistic available option. I was thinking the Mac was in the upper teens of Athletic budgets but I must have been thinking of the Sunbelt itself. A lot of those schools in the Sunbelt are in the middle teens for athletic budgets and I think App could compete well there.

(08-09-2011 11:20 AM)panama Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 11:07 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  It's only a hypothetical exercise anyway. Kit-Kat keeps trying to make the issue real:

(08-08-2011 03:29 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  ....many are wondering if and when the MAC moves to 16.

Nope, you are the only one truly wondering.

THIS!

We have taken to starting threads based upon whatever we dreamed up in the shower. This is just a step below an actual rumor.

That's what happens in August. This is really a non-issue.

(08-09-2011 01:29 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Marshall can't even afford to send its coach to the CUSA media day...

....LOL. At least tell the truth assuming you know the facts Bit. They got into a fog delay at the airport and the flight got delayed. I'm willing to bet that next year they get there the day before. Yea its embarrassing and should have never happened but sometime you cant predict mother nature. I guess it could have been worse. I mean think about it, imagine if Doc would have forgot about the event and was partying it up, found drunk, and thrown out of the dog tracks for belligerent behavior in Cross Lanes, WV at 3 AM in the morning that particular day? Could you imagine if something like that would have happened?.......

(08-09-2011 03:06 PM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  The more I think about it, the Mac might be to much of a jump for App State. The Sunbelt may be the only realistic available option. I was thinking the Mac was in the upper teens of Athletic budgets but I must have been thinking of the Sunbelt itself. A lot of those schools in the Sunbelt are in the middle teens for athletic budgets and I think App could compete well there.

If I recall, the only school with a budget under $20m is Bowling Green at $19.6m. The rest are somewhere in the upper 20s. It's why YSU doesn't have any hope of moving up. App State would struggle with making that kind of leap as well. JMU has everything they need to move up immediately.

Going by the Director's Cup standings, to find who would be the most all-around competitive candidates, you have this:

76. New Hampshire
99. Old Dominion
103. MTSU
105. Georgia Southern
114. JMU
116. Stony Brook
121. Delaware
123. Illinois State
129. SIU
141. FIU
148. Northern Iowa
157. WKU
164. Appalachian State
166. North Dakota
195. Charlotte
230. LA Tech
238. Georgia State
-NR- FAU

Anything below 130 shouldn't really be looked at if you want to add a competitive school.

(08-09-2011 03:24 PM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 01:29 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Marshall can't even afford to send its coach to the CUSA media day...

....LOL. At least tell the truth assuming you know the facts Bit. They got into a fog delay at the airport and the flight got delayed. I'm willing to bet that next year they get there the day before. Yea its embarrassing and should have never happened but sometime you cant predict mother nature. I guess it could have been worse. I mean think about it, imagine if Doc would have forgot about the event and was partying it up, found drunk, and thrown out of the dog tracks for belligerent behavior in Cross Lanes, WV at 3 AM in the morning that particular day? Could you imagine if something like that would have happened?.......

I know the facts. The Smoking Musket had a field day with it too. I just find it amusing that Marshall missed the CUSA media day, and the fact that Chuck Landon was the one to break the story was extremely ironic...

When you think about it, it's hilarious...

Funny thing that ASU currently out performs these other schools with half the "budget". Revenue, expenses, budgets, etc. are hard to gauge due to the lack of reporting standards for these items.

Results on the field, butts in the seats, and athletic donations show that ASU could compete in the MAC and Sun Belt tomorrow and with an increase in revenue streams that CUSA provides they could compete in time there as well.

(08-09-2011 04:03 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Funny thing that ASU currently out performs these other schools with half the "budget". Revenue, expenses, budgets, etc. are hard to gauge due to the lack of reporting standards for these items.

Results on the field, butts in the seats, and athletic donations show that ASU could compete in the MAC and Sun Belt tomorrow and with an increase in revenue streams that CUSA provides they could compete in time there as well.

Are you talking just football, or for all sports? App would be in the bottom half of the conference for basketball.

(08-09-2011 03:36 PM)uakronkid Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 03:06 PM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  The more I think about it, the Mac might be to much of a jump for App State. The Sunbelt may be the only realistic available option. I was thinking the Mac was in the upper teens of Athletic budgets but I must have been thinking of the Sunbelt itself. A lot of those schools in the Sunbelt are in the middle teens for athletic budgets and I think App could compete well there.

If I recall, the only school with a budget under $20m is Bowling Green at $19.6m. The rest are somewhere in the upper 20s. It's why YSU doesn't have any hope of moving up. App State would struggle with making that kind of leap as well. JMU has everything they need to move up immediately.

Going by the Director's Cup standings, to find who would be the most all-around competitive candidates, you have this:

76. New Hampshire
99. Old Dominion
103. MTSU
105. Georgia Southern
114. JMU
116. Stony Brook
121. Delaware
123. Illinois State
129. SIU
141. FIU
148. Northern Iowa
157. WKU
164. Appalachian State
166. North Dakota
195. Charlotte
230. LA Tech
238. Georgia State
-NR- FAU

Anything below 130 shouldn't really be looked at if you want to add a competitive school.

I'll agree with your mention of JMU. I think they have some upside to succeed at the FBS level and would be a realistic option. I still think Delaware would be the better pick for the Mac assuming Delaware would want to move up.

(08-09-2011 04:16 PM)uakronkid Wrote:  Are you talking just football, or for all sports? App would be in the bottom half of the conference for basketball.

ASU would have finished 7th in the MAC last year, a down year for ASU. Two years ago ASU finished in the top 100 in RPI. The MAC isn't a step up in basketball from the SoCon, at least it wasn't last year. You guys had 4 sub 300 RPI teams.

(08-09-2011 03:51 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 03:24 PM)MUHERD76 Wrote:  

(08-09-2011 01:29 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Marshall can't even afford to send its coach to the CUSA media day...

....LOL. At least tell the truth assuming you know the facts Bit. They got into a fog delay at the airport and the flight got delayed. I'm willing to bet that next year they get there the day before. Yea its embarrassing and should have never happened but sometime you cant predict mother nature. I guess it could have been worse. I mean think about it, imagine if Doc would have forgot about the event and was partying it up, found drunk, and thrown out of the dog tracks for belligerent behavior in Cross Lanes, WV at 3 AM in the morning that particular day? Could you imagine if something like that would have happened?.......

I know the facts. The Smoking Musket had a field day with it too. I just find it amusing that Marshall missed the CUSA media day, and the fact that Chuck Landon was the one to break the story was extremely ironic...

When you think about it, it's hilarious...

Smoking Musket? Yea they are the same ones that did the piece on Holgorsen back in May..... Holgorsen thrown out of WV Casino

And "Chuck Landon"....good lord. Don't even get me started on Landon. I don't believe a word he says. I'm not a fan of Landon at all. Not being a fan of Landon might be the only thing me and you have in common.....lol

(08-09-2011 04:03 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Funny thing that ASU currently out performs these other schools with half the "budget". Revenue, expenses, budgets, etc. are hard to gauge due to the lack of reporting standards for these items.

Results on the field, butts in the seats, and athletic donations show that ASU could compete in the MAC and Sun Belt tomorrow and with an increase in revenue streams that CUSA provides they could compete in time there as well.

The major expenses App would incur are the travel expenses. Personally I view the Mac and the Sunbelt on about the same level competitively. That being the case, if I were App I would be trying my best to get into the Sun-belt. You would be playing southern teams and wouldn't have to travel bad weather to the North in the fall. Just seams to me that you guys would be a natural fit in the Sunbelt.

Here are the Directors Cup standings for all the schools in each league that would matter for this...

CUSA

Tulsa-52
SMU-62
UCF-63
ECU-88
S. Miss- 95
Houston-104
Memphis-159
UTEP-169
Tulane-184
Rice-192
UAB-234
Marshal-?


MAC

Kent State-72
Akron-102
CMU-111
Ohio-163
Miami-180
Toledo-185
NIU-188
WMU-205
Bufalo-228
Ball State-238
Bowling Green-238
EMU-279

Sun Belt

Middle Tennessee State-103
FIU-141
WKU-157
Troy-180
LL-205
NTU-222
ASU-228
LM-?
FAU-?

Appalachian State-164

If I missed your school I am sorry just let me know where you are on the list (I only listed schools I could find).

In terms of all sports Appalachian State fits in each though if in CUSA they would be a lowish tier team (though not the bottom by any means), in the MAC they would be right in the middle of the think of things, in the Sunbelt they would be one of the better schools.

In football I think the Sunbelt and the MAC would find you a fine addition.

In basketball the Southern Conference is about equal to the MAC overall and better than the Sunbelt. App State has an RPI around 195 or so. In the MAC East (the side you would most fit in Geography) you would be next to last in front of Bowling Green (245) but behind Buffalo (166) other MAC teams in the East have an RPI of 72 (Kent State), 107 (Akron), 111 (Miami), and 163 (Ohio). It is the west that drags the MAC down in basketball which you would be ahead of all the teams though Ball State (167) and WMU (174) would be competitive. In the Sunbelt your team was better than all but 2 in RPI and I think you would be able to win championships there (right in the running not automatic of course).

So Sunbelt and being in the very top part right away, MAC and be very competitive overall, or CUSA and be behind in near everything?

Appalachian State would fit the MAC competitively for sure it is the non-competition aspects that would make it a harder sell.