(03-29-2012 10:58 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:51 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  ND continues to fade. Without some sort of spark, they won't matter so much.

So people keep saying. Yet here they are years after being proclaimed irrelevant still mattering.

Who proclaimed them irrelevant previously?

And what proves they're relevant anyway?

Let's see a 11-1 ND get invited over a 12-0 BCS team to the championship game. It won't happen.

a 11-1 ND over a 12-0 ACC team? Sure easily could see that happening.

It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

(03-29-2012 11:09 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

Schools would throw away more money giving Arkansas State and LA Tech an auto bid to the tournament. They'd make more going to a bowl game than playing them.

(03-29-2012 10:58 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:27 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:25 AM)ConanX Wrote:  "Although there are 12 voices in the room, only six really matter: SEC, Big Ten, Pac-12, ACC, Big 12 and Notre Dame."



6 v 6

ND will always "matter", despite what certain message board posters and some "sportswriters" may desire.

Things change. The "U" used to matter...but not so much now. TCU mattered in the early days, and then went a long time not mattering. UCLA used to be on everyone's mind for bball, not so much now.

ND continues to fade. Without some sort of spark, they won't matter so much.

Miami and UCLA still matter greatly for TV purposes

UCG? Not so much.

UCLA? Only when they're winning.

Quote: which is really all that matters. Don't confuse recent on-the-field results with long-term off-the-field power. It's the biggest mistake I see on message boards and blogs. History and tradition are highly underrated by "what have you done for me lately" fans. Remember that we're dealing with academia here, which is the single most snobby prestige perception-oriented old money group of people in America.

Wait, you just said TV was all that matters, now you're saying old academic traditions matter. Which is it?

Yes, the media try to stoke the ND fires early each season. And that only serves to make ND less relevant after each mediocre campaign.

The RC church has changed, along with many more people actually attending universities. Delaney doesn't care about ND, and neither does the SEC. ND has a seat at the table, yes. But their role is to be quiet and take what they're given.

(03-29-2012 10:42 AM)ConanX Wrote:  Makes you wonder if BE would have been omitted from this qoute if Pitt, WV, and Syracuse were not leaving....

And we have a winner.

The Big East would have been listed in that grouping with Syracuse, Pitt, AND West Virginia.

(03-29-2012 11:11 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:09 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

Schools would throw away more money giving Arkansas State and LA Tech an auto bid to the tournament. They'd make more going to a bowl game than playing them.

I question that.

I don't think poor teams deserve an AQ, but a 16-team tournament w/ each conference having a (clearly defined) shot at making the field will make money. More money than the Carquest Bowl.

(03-29-2012 11:05 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:58 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:51 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  ND continues to fade. Without some sort of spark, they won't matter so much.

So people keep saying. Yet here they are years after being proclaimed irrelevant still mattering.

Who proclaimed them irrelevant previously?

And what proves they're relevant anyway?

Let's see a 11-1 ND get invited over a 12-0 BCS team to the championship game. It won't happen.

a 11-1 ND over a 12-0 ACC team? Sure easily could see that happening.

When has a one loss BCS team ever been selected over an undefeated BCS team for the BCS championship?

(03-29-2012 11:19 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:11 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:09 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

Schools would throw away more money giving Arkansas State and LA Tech an auto bid to the tournament. They'd make more going to a bowl game than playing them.

I question that.

I don't think poor teams deserve an AQ, but a 16-team tournament w/ each conference having a (clearly defined) shot at making the field will make money. More money than the Carquest Bowl.

It would certainly make more money in total, but that's never been the issue. The issue is how that money is SPLIT (AKA whether 90% of that revenue goes to the power conferences like it does under the current BCS system).

The question in everyone's mind should be: "What would the Big Ten and SEC agree to?" Apply that standard to how the money is split, access, and every other issue and that's the system that we're going to end up with. On a related note, believe me when I tell you that they'd rather let Notre Dame in 1000 times out of 1000 than any of the non-AQ schools. ND doesn't bother them - they're revenue generators. It's the revenue takers that they absolutely loathe.

(03-29-2012 11:18 AM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:42 AM)ConanX Wrote:  Makes you wonder if BE would have been omitted from this qoute if Pitt, WV, and Syracuse were not leaving....

And we have a winner.

The Big East would have been listed in that grouping with Syracuse, Pitt, AND West Virginia.

When was the last time Syracuse was relevant in football? Really?

(03-29-2012 11:11 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:09 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

Schools would throw away more money giving Arkansas State and LA Tech an auto bid to the tournament. They'd make more going to a bowl game than playing them.

bull****. You realize that most schools lose money on bowl games right? If say....VT was hosting Arkansas St in the first round of a playoff do you actually believe VT couldn't make more off those 65K seats than a trip to the Orange Bowl?

This is one of the more absurd anti-playoff posts I've seen on here.

(03-29-2012 11:25 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:19 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:11 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:09 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  It is in Notre Dame's interest to keep the Big East strong. A system the kills the Big East is a strike against the Irish and their status as an Independent.

Until we get a sixteen team playoff that includes conference champions and at-large bids there are going to schools and conference left out. A four team playoff is the first step on the road to a full blown tournament. Schools are throwing away money by keeping a bowl system that is outdated and not very fan friendly.

Schools would throw away more money giving Arkansas State and LA Tech an auto bid to the tournament. They'd make more going to a bowl game than playing them.

I question that.

I don't think poor teams deserve an AQ, but a 16-team tournament w/ each conference having a (clearly defined) shot at making the field will make money. More money than the Carquest Bowl.

It would certainly make more money in total, but that's never been the issue. The issue is how that money is SPLIT (AKA whether 90% of that revenue goes to the power conferences like it does under the current BCS system).

The question in everyone's mind should be: "What would the Big Ten and SEC agree to?" Apply that standard to how the money is split, access, and every other issue and that's the system that we're going to end up with. On a related note, believe me when I tell you that they'd rather let Notre Dame in 1000 times out of 1000 than any of the non-AQ schools. ND doesn't bother them - they're revenue generators. It's the revenue takers that they absolutely loathe.

And before anyone gets offended, keep in mind Frank is talking about "them" (meaning the power conferences), not how he himself feels.

And he's right.

Cheers,
Neil

(03-29-2012 11:25 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  It would certainly make more money in total, but that's never been the issue. The issue is how that money is SPLIT (AKA whether 90% of that revenue goes to the power conferences like it does under the current BCS system).

The question in everyone's mind should be: "What would the Big Ten and SEC agree to?"

That brings me to another question.

Technically, who has to approve the rule change for a national championship game? Right now you can play 12, plus a Hawaii game, plus a CCG, plus a bowl game. Another game will require a rule change. What is the body that approves that rule?

The BCS can do what it does because, after all, it's just an arrangement between pre-existing conferences and bowls. Theoretically, the MWC, WAC, MAC, SBC were free to do the same thing with their bowls.

But if there is going to be an officially sanctioned NCAA Division I-A National Champion, you can't just say "The following conferences get a full share every year, the others get a half/quarter/one-tenth share", can you?

(03-29-2012 11:28 AM)TOGC Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 11:18 AM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:42 AM)ConanX Wrote:  Makes you wonder if BE would have been omitted from this qoute if Pitt, WV, and Syracuse were not leaving....

And we have a winner.

The Big East would have been listed in that grouping with Syracuse, Pitt, AND West Virginia.

When was the last time Syracuse was relevant in football? Really?

Does that really matter anymore? Pretty clear who's considered important at this point. It's not the Big East or the Alliance.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

First, even the ND haters don't need to get too aggravated about "Notre Dame rules" for a playoff because, practically, unless they get their program back to the level it was at when Holtz was there, they're not going to be in any top 4 in any format. If there had been a "top 4" playoff, or top 3 plus wild card, during all of the years of the BCS, ND would not have been in the playoff in any year. The Irish are not "robbing" your team of a place in a playoff.

Second, the biggest reason ND matters (apart from their TV draw) is that they would greatly affect the balance of power if they ever chose to move their football program into a conference. So they're always in the forefront because people keep asking, "What is Notre Dame going to do now?"

(03-29-2012 10:58 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:51 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  ND continues to fade. Without some sort of spark, they won't matter so much.

So people keep saying. Yet here they are years after being proclaimed irrelevant still mattering.

Who proclaimed them irrelevant previously?

And what proves they're relevant anyway?

Let's see a 11-1 ND get invited over a 12-0 BCS team to the championship game. It won't happen.

Well, I am a pretty good historian regarding Notre Dame football.

ND football went through a rough period from 1953 through 1963 when Father Hesburgh forced out the wildly successful (four undefeated seasons in a row from 1946-49) ND head football coach Frank Leahy.

Father Hesburgh did not want football to become too powerful and outshine academics at ND. So, he pressured Leahy to resign because he thought the latter was becoming too powerful and ND football was becoming too dominant.

Check out ND's mediocre and losing records between 1953 and 1964.

Many people (opposing fans, sportswriters and TV analysts) were saying at the time that "ND is dead, it will never rise again."

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div...totals.php


Then, ND hired Ara Parseghian prior to the 1964 season and ND again was dominant between 1964-1980. The critics and naysayers were proven wrong.

After the 1980 season, Dan Devine "retired" as the head football coach at ND. Although he had been successful and won the 1977 national title, the administration did not like him and wanted him replaced.

They decided to hire Gerry Faust, a high school football coach at Moeller High School in Cincinnati.

Yep, the priests who run Notre Dame decided to entrust the most successful program in college football to a high school coach because he was a very devout Catholic who loved ND, had won big at Moeller and had sent many kids to play for the Irish.

The Faust years were a disaster. Many again proclaimed that the game had changed, that ND's success was a thing of the past, that ND was done.

The new, speedy, exciting pass happy Southern teams like Miami and Florida State had "passed ND and left that stodgy Midwestern run based team in the dust".

Many people again proclaimed that the ND football program's success was a thing of the past and that ND was irrelevant in that modern era.

Then, ND hired Lou Holtz as its head coach. He went 100-30-1 and won a national title. He damn near came close to winning three or four (1989, 1991, 1993).

Again, the ND detractors were proven wrong and ND was dominant in college football again.

What happened next? Father Edmund "Monk" Malloy repeated history and forced Lou Holtz to resign because he did not want football to be too dominant and wanted ND to be known more for academics than athletics.

This is the old, historic battle at Notre Dame between the academic side (and the Holy Cross priests that run ND) and the football program. It is as old as Knute Rockne.

Check out the pendulum swings after Rockne's death in 1930, after Leahy retired in 1953 and after Holtz was forced out in 1996. It is an old story.

Every time the program is deemphazied by the Holy Cross Fathers, there are a number of people who proclaim that ND football is dead.

This is the longest drought in ND history (since Holtz was booted in 1996) and therefore the "ND is irrelevant" crowd has been circling the carcass.

If/when ND starts to get serious about winning football again, the pendulum will swing back.

Throughout it all, ND has always remained "relevant". It is the only individual school with a national radio network and an over the air national TV contract.

It still has clout with the networks, the bowls and with the university presidents and conference commissioners.

That always damn near confounds its detractors, though.

(03-29-2012 11:36 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Does that really matter anymore? Pretty clear who's considered important at this point. It's not the Big East or the Alliance.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

It's amazing how the Alliance members in this thread have turned into the biggest group of anti-Big East BCS honks on the planet.

Fact is, they're just spinning an article that was spinning. The Big East has lived up to the present BCS criteria with the new additions. There is no basis to omit them from their present status in the system going forward.

(03-29-2012 12:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  What happened next? Father Edmund "Monk" Malloy repeated history and forced Lou Holtz to resign because he did not want football to be too dominant and wanted ND to be known more for academics than athletics.

I thought they forced Holtz to resign because if he had coached at ND for another year, he would have passed Rockne to become the winningest ND football coach.

LMAO... I shouldn't be amazed that there is a thread on this but I am.

Notre Dame only matters because Roman Catholicism is a huge presence on the world stage.

Ugly times we live in.

The key part of this article is the "selection" of teams. If its Conference Champions, that favors the other leagues and actually does make the regular season more relevant. The BCS could force ND into a conference by making it as such...thats an interesting situation. Because they dont have the cahunas, it is likely going to be this silly 3 and 1 deal, which can make it just like it was, where the SEC can have two teams in the championship.

This whole process is a complete farce....it is being directed by conference commissioners and tv execs and worrying about the Bowl's. Fans dont give a crap about the Bowl structure, and why should college presidents give a crap about the bowl structure? There is no fan involvement, no grassroots debate like Hancock suggested. This is just BCS 2.0....and it is sickening to see college athletics reduced to this mafia type format.

What a joke all of these people are...Delaney, Hancock, Slive, Swarbrick, etc...fans should see right through this, they have no intention of doing what is best for the fans, the best for college football, its all about who controls what...not maximizing the money even, but maximizing the control of the money.