(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Right now and for the last decade Butler has been better than ND

Programs are judged on their historical success, not just on what they have done recently. Butler has had a great deal of success over the last decade and has been much more success than Notre Dame over that time period.

On the flip side, that is really the only success Butler has ever had. Notre Dame hasn't done great in the tournament in a long time (1979 was their last elite eight) but they do have success that spans more than a decade.

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Xavier has dominated the series against Cincy.

You and I have different definitions of the word "dominated". Let's look at the UC vs Xavier games over 5 year increments

Last 5 years: 3-2 Xavier
Last 10 years: 6-4 Xavier
Last 15 years: 9-6 Xavier
Last 20 years: 12-8 Xavier

I wouldn't consider any of those to be dominating records. Xavier might be winning against UC, but it isn't really lopsided. Also, I'm not sure how any objective person could rank a program with 0 final four appearances and only two elite eights (Xavier) higher than a program with two national championships and 6 final fours (Cincinnati).

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  What happened 20-30-40 years ago has no bearing on today[/b][/u].

So following this logic, you would agree that Saint John's program is below a program like Gonzaga correct? Gonzaga has been to the tournament every year since 2000 while Saint John's has only made the tournament three times ( 2000, 2002, 2011). Granted, Saint John's blows Gongaza away from the historical perspective (the Bulldogs have only one elite eight appearance ever in their history), but only the last decade or so of results matters correct?

(05-27-2013 12:01 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Right now and for the last decade Butler has been better than ND

Programs are judged on their historical success, not just on what they have done recently. Butler has had a great deal of success over the last decade and has been much more success than Notre Dame over that time period.

On the flip side, that is really the only success Butler has ever had. Notre Dame hasn't done great in the tournament in a long time (1979 was their last elite eight) but they do have success that spans more than a decade.

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Xavier has dominated the series against Cincy.

You and I have different definitions of the word "dominated". Let's look at the UC vs Xavier games over 5 year increments

Last 5 years: 3-2 Xavier
Last 10 years: 6-4 Xavier
Last 15 years: 9-6 Xavier
Last 20 years: 12-8 Xavier

I wouldn't consider any of those to be dominating records. Xavier might be winning against UC, but it isn't really lopsided. Also, I'm not sure how any objective person could rank a program with 0 final four appearances and only two elite eights (Xavier) higher than a program with two national championships and 6 final fours (Cincinnati).

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  What happened 20-30-40 years ago has no bearing on today[/b][/u].

So following this logic, you would agree that Saint John's program is below a program like Gonzaga correct? Gonzaga has been to the tournament every year since 2000 while Saint John's has only made the tournament three times ( 2000, 2002, 2011). Granted, Saint John's blows Gongaza away from the historical perspective (the Bulldogs have only one elite eight appearance ever in their history), but only the last decade or so of results matters correct?

It's St. John's, not Saint John's.

Right now, yes Gonzaga is the better program. Can't argue with success.

I would say winning 2/3 of your games against someone as dominating. This decade they are 8-4 against Cincy. They beat the Bearcats twice for every time they lost to them. I know if UofL was beating the bearcats at that rate you would say you were dominating them.

(05-27-2013 04:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(05-27-2013 12:01 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Right now and for the last decade Butler has been better than ND

Programs are judged on their historical success, not just on what they have done recently. Butler has had a great deal of success over the last decade and has been much more success than Notre Dame over that time period.

On the flip side, that is really the only success Butler has ever had. Notre Dame hasn't done great in the tournament in a long time (1979 was their last elite eight) but they do have success that spans more than a decade.

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Xavier has dominated the series against Cincy.

You and I have different definitions of the word "dominated". Let's look at the UC vs Xavier games over 5 year increments

Last 5 years: 3-2 Xavier
Last 10 years: 6-4 Xavier
Last 15 years: 9-6 Xavier
Last 20 years: 12-8 Xavier

I wouldn't consider any of those to be dominating records. Xavier might be winning against UC, but it isn't really lopsided. Also, I'm not sure how any objective person could rank a program with 0 final four appearances and only two elite eights (Xavier) higher than a program with two national championships and 6 final fours (Cincinnati).

(05-23-2013 09:58 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  What happened 20-30-40 years ago has no bearing on today[/b][/u].

So following this logic, you would agree that Saint John's program is below a program like Gonzaga correct? Gonzaga has been to the tournament every year since 2000 while Saint John's has only made the tournament three times ( 2000, 2002, 2011). Granted, Saint John's blows Gongaza away from the historical perspective (the Bulldogs have only one elite eight appearance ever in their history), but only the last decade or so of results matters correct?

It's St. John's, not Saint John's.

Right now, yes Gonzaga is the better program. Can't argue with success.

I would say winning 2/3 of your games against someone as dominating. This decade they are 8-4 against Cincy. They beat the Bearcats twice for every time they lost to them. I know if UofL was beating the bearcats at that rate you would say you were dominating them.

So your school is named after a street, not John the Baptist?

If you're going to talk smack, get it right! St. John refers to the Apostle John (the fellow who stuck with Jesus to the end, cared for his mother after Jesus was executed, etc.), NOT to John the Baptist (who was beheaded by King Herod while Jesus was still alive).

I have NO idea if St John's University was named after the apostle or not... just saying...

(05-27-2013 09:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(05-27-2013 04:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  It's St. John's, not Saint John's.

Right now, yes Gonzaga is the better program. Can't argue with success.

I would say winning 2/3 of your games against someone as dominating. This decade they are 8-4 against Cincy. They beat the Bearcats twice for every time they lost to them. I know if UofL was beating the bearcats at that rate you would say you were dominating them.

So your school is named after a street, not John the Baptist?

Diploma sez....

(05-27-2013 10:01 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  If you're going to talk smack, get it right! St. John refers to the Apostle John (the fellow who stuck with Jesus to the end, cared for his mother after Jesus was executed, etc.), NOT to John the Baptist (who was beheaded by King Herod while Jesus was still alive).

I have NO idea if St John's University was named after the apostle or not... just saying...

Hokie, in this case it does refer to the John the Baptist. SJU was founded as St. John's College Hall by St. John's the Baptist Parish in Bed-Stuy Brooklyn in 1870. SJU then moved to Queens in the 1950s.

The SEC is looking for a primary (possibly permament) home for their basketball tournament. This could have a small effect on the ACC tournament rotation if they pick Atlanta or Tampa (althought I would be surprised if the ACC goes back there anyway).

(05-29-2013 11:07 AM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  The SEC is looking for a primary (possibly permament) home for their basketball tournament. This could have a small effect on the ACC tournament rotation if they pick Atlanta or Tampa (althought I would be surprised if the ACC goes back there anyway).

< 10% chance the ACCT returns to Atlanta
< 0.1% chance it returns to Tampa (or anywhere in Florida).

The ACC Football championship struggled in FL - basketball has NO chance there.

We have success in Atlanta, wish we had a chance for the FB champ game to be there, but that has long passed.

From what I've read, either the ACC or BE is going to have to move their tournament up a week for the ACC to play in MSG. Since the BE is already under contract, I have to believe they wouldn't be willing to move their tournament. So is it worth it for the ACC to get into MSG to move the ACC tournament up a week and give up a minimum of 3 consecutive years? Sounds like a lot of hurdles to overcome and really it's up to ESPN. Even if the ACC is willing, will ESPN want to move that last week of ACC games that play during mid-majors championship week? That includes UNC/Duke and will probably have some Marquee match-ups for Cuse, Pitt, ND and Louisville.

On the other hand, the ACC tournament that week might hammer everything else in the ratings. So maybe ESPN would be interested too.

(05-29-2013 01:58 PM)westmc9th Wrote:  We have success in Atlanta, wish we had a chance for the FB champ game to be there, but that has long passed.

One thing Greensboro and Charlotte do well that Atlanta does not is cater to the media. Local radio guys had lots of negatives about Atlanta after last tourney there. The ACC doesn't need a buzz killer.

Im sure the xBE guys can address how MSG handles the media.

(05-30-2013 03:05 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  From what I've read, either the ACC or BE is going to have to move their tournament up a week for the ACC to play in MSG. Since the BE is already under contract, I have to believe they wouldn't be willing to move their tournament. So is it worth it for the ACC to get into MSG to move the ACC tournament up a week and give up a minimum of 3 consecutive years? Sounds like a lot of hurdles to overcome and really it's up to ESPN. Even if the ACC is willing, will ESPN want to move that last week of ACC games that play during mid-majors championship week? That includes UNC/Duke and will probably have some Marquee match-ups for Cuse, Pitt, ND and Louisville.

On the other hand, the ACC tournament that week might hammer everything else in the ratings. So maybe ESPN would be interested too.

Any chance the ACC goes to a 2-weekend format with the first round in MSG and the final 8 in Greensboro?

(05-30-2013 05:10 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-30-2013 03:05 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  From what I've read, either the ACC or BE is going to have to move their tournament up a week for the ACC to play in MSG. Since the BE is already under contract, I have to believe they wouldn't be willing to move their tournament. So is it worth it for the ACC to get into MSG to move the ACC tournament up a week and give up a minimum of 3 consecutive years? Sounds like a lot of hurdles to overcome and really it's up to ESPN. Even if the ACC is willing, will ESPN want to move that last week of ACC games that play during mid-majors championship week? That includes UNC/Duke and will probably have some Marquee match-ups for Cuse, Pitt, ND and Louisville.

On the other hand, the ACC tournament that week might hammer everything else in the ratings. So maybe ESPN would be interested too.

Any chance the ACC goes to a 2-weekend format with the first round in MSG and the final 8 in Greensboro?

That sounds like a textbook compromise solution. Play the opening round(s) in MSG before the BE tourney and play the rest in Greensboro. I'd like to see that happen.

It is about tradition...the ACC Finals are and should always be the Sunday Afternoon of Selection Sunday. If the nnnBE meets the benchmark set by their deal then keep it as is for the ACC.

If there is no way to get into MSG with @ least a 3 years their &. 3 years Greensboro then just go to the 3 years Greensboro & 1 year rotation of Charlotte, Washington & if possible Barclays. If the Barclays is booked would like to see the Fleet Center in Boston.

(05-30-2013 05:48 AM)Maize Wrote:  It is about tradition...the ACC Finals are and should always be the Sunday Afternoon of Selection Sunday. If the nnnBE meets the benchmark set by their deal then keep it as is for the ACC.

If there is no way to get into MSG with @ least a 3 years their &. 3 years Greensboro then just go to the 3 years Greensboro & 1 year rotation of Charlotte, Washington & if possible Barclays. If the Barclays is booked would like to see the Fleet Center in Boston.

Playing the finals on Sunday opens the possibility of playing the ACC tournament in NYC at a combination of Barclays and MSG without altering the BE tournament. The ACC could play its semifinals and finals at MSG on Saturday and Sunday afternoon, with earlier rounds played at Barclays.

(05-30-2013 05:48 AM)Maize Wrote:  It is about tradition...the ACC Finals are and should always be the Sunday Afternoon of Selection Sunday. If the nnnBE meets the benchmark set by their deal then keep it as is for the ACC.

If there is no way to get into MSG with @ least a 3 years their &. 3 years Greensboro then just go to the 3 years Greensboro & 1 year rotation of Charlotte, Washington & if possible Barclays. If the Barclays is booked would like to see the Fleet Center in Boston.

Tradition....Back in the day.......The ACC finals were on Saturday night.
With 8 teams the games were 4 on Thursday, semis on Friday night and Finals on Saturday night.

(05-30-2013 07:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(05-30-2013 05:48 AM)Maize Wrote:  It is about tradition...the ACC Finals are and should always be the Sunday Afternoon of Selection Sunday. If the nnnBE meets the benchmark set by their deal then keep it as is for the ACC.

If there is no way to get into MSG with @ least a 3 years their &. 3 years Greensboro then just go to the 3 years Greensboro & 1 year rotation of Charlotte, Washington & if possible Barclays. If the Barclays is booked would like to see the Fleet Center in Boston.

Tradition....Back in the day.......The ACC finals were on Saturday night.
With 8 teams the games were 4 on Thursday, semis on Friday night and Finals on Saturday night.

Ok, during my Basketball viewing...late 70's it was Sunday lol...but trust me...Saturday Night is fine by me...has a feel that I am use to...

(05-24-2013 02:56 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(05-24-2013 01:55 PM)Maize Wrote:  The issue of the nnnBE is the loss of Louisville, UConn & Syracuse....nobody is on that level in the nnnBE...

If thats what you need to tell yourself, except two of the BE tied for first place with UofL last year. (Marquette and Georgetown)

The last title from anyone in your New Big East was 1985, that's 28 years ago, and how relevant you are in basketball. Its about winning National Championships in being a power conference.

(05-30-2013 06:40 PM)baggerbob Wrote:  

(05-24-2013 02:56 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(05-24-2013 01:55 PM)Maize Wrote:  The issue of the nnnBE is the loss of Louisville, UConn & Syracuse....nobody is on that level in the nnnBE...

If thats what you need to tell yourself, except two of the BE tied for first place with UofL last year. (Marquette and Georgetown)

The last title from anyone in your New Big East was 1985, that's 28 years ago, and how relevant you are in basketball. Its about winning National Championships in being a power conference.

Interesting take on things. I suppose then we know how you feel about ACC football (FSU only team to win national championship in past 22 years (twice) And ACC baseball, no national championships in over 50 years.

(05-31-2013 10:00 AM)hoops22 Wrote:  

(05-30-2013 06:40 PM)baggerbob Wrote:  

(05-24-2013 02:56 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(05-24-2013 01:55 PM)Maize Wrote:  The issue of the nnnBE is the loss of Louisville, UConn & Syracuse....nobody is on that level in the nnnBE...

If thats what you need to tell yourself, except two of the BE tied for first place with UofL last year. (Marquette and Georgetown)

The last title from anyone in your New Big East was 1985, that's 28 years ago, and how relevant you are in basketball. Its about winning National Championships in being a power conference.

Interesting take on things. I suppose then we know how you feel about ACC football (FSU only team to win national championship in past 22 years (twice) And ACC baseball, no national championships in over 50 years.

Oh wait, are you counting Miami's two national championships for the Big East or the American? I like how you used such and even, unbiased cutoff as 22 years, one year short of including Georgia Tech.