Not having your athletics collpase and having no fan base at the time of realignment would have helped too

(08-25-2013 09:25 AM)lofi Wrote:  Selling tickets is NOT the equivalent of fielding a quality team but it is a sign that their fan base believes that better times are ahead.
If you consider their fanbase dumb so be it but I happen to love their optimism.
Why is it that schools from the Northeastern part of the country always seem to belittle schools from the cornfields & the south for suppporting their teams?
I have seen many posts on this board (not by you) from fans from some schools basically saying people in their towns have more opportunities for entertainment than the local college team and using that as an excuse for their poor attendance.
If that is the case these teams may never have adequate fan support no matter what their won/loss records are.
UConn had a BCS bowl to attend and the support was lukeworm at best.
If Iowa State ever gets that chance you would see their fanbase buy up every available ticket.
Winning games in the B12 is no cakewalk. At least their fans are doing their part.
I wish the majority of the teams in the old BE no ill will. They have been dealt a bad hand.
When it all shakes out I'm sure UConn,UC and USF will all homes in one of the P5 conferences.

Well said. I have made that point before but it fell on deaf ears. Certain fans want to use their big city "market" to help them make the leap to a power conference. The flip side is they complain because "fans" in those markets find better things to do besides support the local hometown University.

(08-25-2013 08:44 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Wasn't talking to you, that was directed at the guy above me.

Like I said, Democrats will love to hear your "it's not fair they make more money than me so we need some wealth redistribution " argument

Perhaps the government should also start telling each of us whom we can associate with, whom we can do business with, whom we can or can't befriend and a multitude of other choices we take for granted every day. I mean, it's just not fair that I can make more friends than you right? It's not fair that I give all my business to certain particular businesses and not others of the same kind right?

The government has the right too because I use government funded services of all types thus they have the right to do all this when it comes to whom or what we associate with. Makes perfect sense now that I have had the fairness of it pointed out to me.

(08-25-2013 08:44 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Wasn't talking to you, that was directed at the guy above me.

Like I said, Democrats will love to hear your "it's not fair they make more money than me so we need some wealth redistribution " argument

Sorry about that.

I assume you're still not talking to me with the last comment. I don't feel that way at all and I don't believe anyone is making that argument. You are very good at misdirection.

(08-25-2013 12:35 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 11:38 PM)gcoogs Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 10:48 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  And why is that?

State funding of public schools in no way equals "the federal government should force the B1G, a private athletic club, to absorb the MAC (another private athletic club) and equally share their money and attention with them because its not fair that B1G fans care about their schools and MAC fans don't care about their schools!"

It's a complete non sequitur

Where did this quote come from? (seriously, I can't find it)

Like it or not the federal, state and local governments have been involved from day one with tax expemptions, public bonds, school funding, etc. All of our "private clubs" are deep into the public trough. It's not unreasonable for a school that hasn't received some of the "breaks" other schools may have to seek any lifeline, including the government. Before your get your dander up, I'm not talking about schools like ATM, but the lower tier of the P5 schools.

And what "life line" are they going to seek?

That the federal government give them money they can't earn on their own so they can keep up with the P5?

That the government cap athletic spending at a low level so they can compete with the P5?

How about instead of that, they try to follow the P5 example and get Ohio or Kent students to CARE about Ohio and Kent athletics?

If the MAC was averaging 50-60k attendance, they would be getting the same contracts and attention they crave so much. But instead of building themselves up, they want to punish the success of the B1G

I agree with your overall position, but when it comes to the big TV money, most of the P5 schools do not "earn it on their own".

They have to band together in collectives to garner those contracts. There is very little Social Darwinism involved.

Schools other than the big cornerstone programs of each P5 conference earn that money by being lucky enough to be in that collective.

Other than that, I agree that there is little chance of government intervention, nor should there be such.

Even aside from the biggest corner stone schools, there are very few P5 schools that bring little to no value to the negotiation table when their conference sits down across from the TV execs (I can only think of about 3 that are truly questionable)

Almost everyone brings either a nationally followed athletic team(s), a large fan base, penetration into a large market or an important TV rivalry to a conferences negotiating power.

But what about schools in the MAC?

Their problem is that almost NONE of them bring those things. You cant go to ESPN and say "well, we've got one team that is OK at football and one that is Ok but not great at basketball and no teams that average more than 20K fans...so we're getting the same deal as the ACC right??"

Smaller conferences and universities/colleges do not deserve the same amount of money as the powerhouses. They have done nothing to warrant the same TV money as the powerhouses. They have done nothing warrant an even playoff money share, either.

They do, however, deserve an opportunity to play for the same championship (playoff access) - provided they meet minimum criteria for entry.

I think that a breakaway should start off as being P5 + Indy. In 5-10 years, you'll have a nice stock of 5-20 Indy schools that have met the minimum requirements to play in a Premier division. Those schools can then re-associate as conferences in the new division. If the entire American were to step it up, then they can re-make the conference with all members that qualify.

(08-25-2013 10:30 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Smaller conferences and universities/colleges do not deserve the same amount of money as the powerhouses. They have done nothing to warrant the same TV money as the powerhouses. They have done nothing warrant an even playoff money share, either.

They do, however, deserve an opportunity to play for the same championship (playoff access) - provided they meet minimum criteria for entry.

I think that a breakaway should start off as being P5 + Indy. In 5-10 years, you'll have a nice stock of 5-20 Indy schools that have met the minimum requirements to play in a Premier division. Those schools can then re-associate as conferences in the new division. If the entire American were to step it up, then they can re-make the conference with all members that qualify.

I don't see why you guys should be forced to play as Independents. That will be more limiting than all of you being in a singular conference. Why not just have a 20 team conference that is divided up in a way that aids you guys in terms of the cost of being in a national conference? While there is just a four team tournament, the likelihood of you guys taking part is very slim either way. Your best chance would be for a perfect storm type of situation with a conference championship game having two ranked teams and the winner comes away with a perfect record and a strong enough SoS at the end. Without that conference championship game win to add some strength to the best potential candidate, I just don't see how it happens. All of you being Indies would make it more difficult, not less.

(08-25-2013 07:38 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 08:14 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  the overwhelming majority of these schools are only on this list because they had the dumb luck of joining these conferences back before TV was even invented. And now, in spite of any substantial success on the football field schools like Wake Forrest and Iowa State see it as some God given birth right that they be among the chosen few to get rich while schools like Miami(Oh) that have the 16th highest career winning percentage in FBS are told to go pound sand because they didn't have the foresight to join the B1G in 1896.

Congress needs to get involved.

Iowa State sold over 43,000 season tickets this year.
How many did Miami (Oh) sell this year?
How many did Ohio sell this year?
I am a fan of the MAC but c'mon.

wait, are you saying a school with 100x the revenue stream from ESPN and 100x the exposure from ESPN found a way to get more butts in the seats than teams that have to play 1/3 of their home games on week nights in November just to get some table scraps?

that is amazing. How did poor little Iowa State over come so many obstacles to find a fan base? they obviously "earned" it.

Never mind the fact that Iowa State has only won 2 conference championships and those were in 1911 and 1912, or have only been in the final AP poll twice, or are 3-9 in bowl games, or that they rank 94th in all time winning percentage, those are just on the field results and those don't matter. What matters is that they happen to be in the right club. its not what you know, its who you know. Bravo Iowa State, bravo.

Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

(08-25-2013 11:26 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 07:38 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 08:14 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  the overwhelming majority of these schools are only on this list because they had the dumb luck of joining these conferences back before TV was even invented. And now, in spite of any substantial success on the football field schools like Wake Forrest and Iowa State see it as some God given birth right that they be among the chosen few to get rich while schools like Miami(Oh) that have the 16th highest career winning percentage in FBS are told to go pound sand because they didn't have the foresight to join the B1G in 1896.

Congress needs to get involved.

Iowa State sold over 43,000 season tickets this year.
How many did Miami (Oh) sell this year?
How many did Ohio sell this year?
I am a fan of the MAC but c'mon.

wait, are you saying a school with 100x the revenue stream from ESPN and 100x the exposure from ESPN found a way to get more butts in the seats than teams that have to play 1/3 of their home games on week nights in November just to get some table scraps?

that is amazing. How did poor little Iowa State over come so many obstacles to find a fan base? they obviously "earned" it.

Never mind the fact that Iowa State has only won 2 conference championships and those were in 1911 and 1912, or have only been in the final AP poll twice, or are 3-9 in bowl games, or that they rank 94th in all time winning percentage, those are just on the field results and those don't matter. What matters is that they happen to be in the right club. its not what you know, its who you know. Bravo Iowa State, bravo.

Permiterpost brings up good points. There is a certain psychology involved regarding alums/fans supporting a school when they are lumped in a conference with schools like Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, etc. vs. being in a conference with Buffalo, E. Michigan, Akron, etc. In addition, it is much easier to get folks at an Iowa State to buy season tickets to see those teams in come to town every year. When you top off the fact that the P5 schools get guaranteed prime time television and stations like ESPN ignore the G5 schools even exist you fight a losing battle up front.

I'm obviously a bit of a homer for my conference, but what I do think is very reasonable about this is the carry forward of MWC/AAC schools. I just can't believe any new resetup is going to exclude huge schools like Houston, UCF, USF, SDSU, Fresno... or huge performers like Boise. Be it the entire MWC/AAC, or some realigned subset, some of these schools have to tag along. To not do so would be ridiculous.

(08-25-2013 11:40 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

With a few exceptions(ECU, BYU, USF) most G5 schools have no one to blame but themselves. Most of their students and alumni don't care so why should the TV networks and power conferences care?

(08-25-2013 11:40 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

And there you have it, who cares if they ever win. Well said. This isn't about competitiveness, its about entitlement. And btw, how did they get all of those fans? From being in a conference that has continuous national media exposure!

There are only 2 FBS schools in the state of Iowa, both are in P5 conferences. There are 8 FBS schools in the state of Ohio but only ONE gets that level of exposure. You think that makes a difference?

How can a program that never appeared on any ESPN channels before 2005 and has only hosted a home game on the main channel once (on a Tuesday night, no less) possibly compete for mind share against schools that are drooled over 24/7 by the national media because of the conference they play in?

All I hear is a sense of entitlement for those lucky enough to get a big piece of the pie and nothing but resentment for those who get left out, regardless of what they actually do on the playing field. Pathetic.

(08-25-2013 11:40 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

According to ESPN a couple of years ago, Miami makes more money from the fan stays home and watches them on TV than if that same fan bought a ticket and went to the game.

With the symbiosis that is the GoR, and local ratings translating into ad revenue, and corporate donations, I think we will see this more and more with teams that are in large markets and/or have substantial national appeal as well.

(08-25-2013 01:18 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 11:40 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

And there you have it, who cares if they ever win. Well said. This isn't about competitiveness, its about entitlement. And btw, how did they get all of those fans? From being in a conference that has continuous national media exposure!

There are only 2 FBS schools in the state of Iowa, both are in P5 conferences. There are 8 FBS schools in the state of Ohio but only ONE gets that level of exposure. You think that makes a difference?

How can a program that never appeared on any ESPN channels before 2005 and has only hosted a home game on the main channel once (on a Tuesday night, no less) possibly compete for mind share against schools that are drooled over 24/7 by the national media because of the conference they play in?

All I hear is a sense of entitlement for those lucky enough to get a big piece of the pie and nothing but resentment for those who get left out, regardless of what they actually do on the playing field. Pathetic.

It is about entitlement. You think the MAC is entitled to something they never earned.

(08-25-2013 01:18 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 11:40 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Teams still get the majority of their money from ticket sales and donations. Television has become more important in terms of money lately.

The MAC missed their opportunity and only have themselves to blame. It isn't ESPN's fault that nobody wants to watch the MAC.

It makes no sense to make fun of a team that is averaging 55k per game. Who cares if they never win? Half of the teams in a game will lose. What is important is that they have fans that want to support them regardless of if they win or lose. Nobody in the MAC has any support.

And there you have it, who cares if they ever win. Well said. This isn't about competitiveness, its about entitlement. And btw, how did they get all of those fans? From being in a conference that has continuous national media exposure!

There are only 2 FBS schools in the state of Iowa, both are in P5 conferences. There are 8 FBS schools in the state of Ohio but only ONE gets that level of exposure. You think that makes a difference?

How can a program that never appeared on any ESPN channels before 2005 and has only hosted a home game on the main channel once (on a Tuesday night, no less) possibly compete for mind share against schools that are drooled over 24/7 by the national media because of the conference they play in?

All I hear is a sense of entitlement for those lucky enough to get a big piece of the pie and nothing but resentment for those who get left out, regardless of what they actually do on the playing field. Pathetic.

You are twisting the usage of the word entitlement. The schools in the Big Ten have built up that product over a period of many decades. You want what that group has and you will create any argument possible that you think rationalizes your sense of entitlement for your school to have what they created for themselves. Who cares if two Iowa schools are in P5 conferences and only one Ohio school is? You think Ohio Senators and/or Representatives are going to strike up the band and go marching off to raise political warfare over that? Going to fall flat on your face with that childish, entitlement based argument.

You have gone so far down in this argument that you now think that the anti-entitlement debate is in your favor instead of against you?

Get a grip. You want for your school that which those other schools have built up for themselves over a period of many more years. That is a textbook example of entitlement. You feel your school is entitled to what they have built up for themselves.

Now that some of those likeminded conferences are looking to associate with each other more and with others less, you are angry because you fear for less big pay day games for the likes of Ohio and other MAC schools. You feel entitled to those. You feel entitled to big pay days from the National Playoff that your schools will likely never attend. You are right though, that doesn't show any element of entitlement at all.

(08-25-2013 11:26 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 07:38 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 08:14 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  the overwhelming majority of these schools are only on this list because they had the dumb luck of joining these conferences back before TV was even invented. And now, in spite of any substantial success on the football field schools like Wake Forrest and Iowa State see it as some God given birth right that they be among the chosen few to get rich while schools like Miami(Oh) that have the 16th highest career winning percentage in FBS are told to go pound sand because they didn't have the foresight to join the B1G in 1896.

Congress needs to get involved.

Iowa State sold over 43,000 season tickets this year.
How many did Miami (Oh) sell this year?
How many did Ohio sell this year?
I am a fan of the MAC but c'mon.

wait, are you saying a school with 100x the revenue stream from ESPN and 100x the exposure from ESPN found a way to get more butts in the seats than teams that have to play 1/3 of their home games on week nights in November just to get some table scraps?

that is amazing. How did poor little Iowa State over come so many obstacles to find a fan base? they obviously "earned" it.

Never mind the fact that Iowa State has only won 2 conference championships and those were in 1911 and 1912, or have only been in the final AP poll twice, or are 3-9 in bowl games, or that they rank 94th in all time winning percentage, those are just on the field results and those don't matter. What matters is that they happen to be in the right club. its not what you know, its who you know. Bravo Iowa State, bravo.

That is exactly what I am saying. Iowa State is selling bunches of tickets DESPITE stinking up the joint.
For that they do deserve a bravo.
You alluded to getting table scraps from ESPN by playing on Tuesday And Wednesday nights. I actually think the MAC needs to take advantage of this.
The old BE took advantage of this on Thursday nights before the NFL took that night away.
It served them well.
The MAC should try to do the same.

(08-25-2013 11:57 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 11:26 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 07:38 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 08:14 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  the overwhelming majority of these schools are only on this list because they had the dumb luck of joining these conferences back before TV was even invented. And now, in spite of any substantial success on the football field schools like Wake Forrest and Iowa State see it as some God given birth right that they be among the chosen few to get rich while schools like Miami(Oh) that have the 16th highest career winning percentage in FBS are told to go pound sand because they didn't have the foresight to join the B1G in 1896.

Congress needs to get involved.

Iowa State sold over 43,000 season tickets this year.
How many did Miami (Oh) sell this year?
How many did Ohio sell this year?
I am a fan of the MAC but c'mon.

wait, are you saying a school with 100x the revenue stream from ESPN and 100x the exposure from ESPN found a way to get more butts in the seats than teams that have to play 1/3 of their home games on week nights in November just to get some table scraps?

that is amazing. How did poor little Iowa State over come so many obstacles to find a fan base? they obviously "earned" it.

Never mind the fact that Iowa State has only won 2 conference championships and those were in 1911 and 1912, or have only been in the final AP poll twice, or are 3-9 in bowl games, or that they rank 94th in all time winning percentage, those are just on the field results and those don't matter. What matters is that they happen to be in the right club. its not what you know, its who you know. Bravo Iowa State, bravo.

Permiterpost brings up good points. There is a certain psychology involved regarding alums/fans supporting a school when they are lumped in a conference with schools like Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, etc. vs. being in a conference with Buffalo, E. Michigan, Akron, etc. In addition, it is much easier to get folks at an Iowa State to buy season tickets to see those teams in come to town every year. When you top off the fact that the P5 schools get guaranteed prime time television and stations like ESPN ignore the G5 schools even exist you fight a losing battle up front.

I'm tired of people dumping on Wake Forest. It's the smallest school in the B-5 with an undergraduate enrollment under 8000K.

In 2006 Wake won the ACC title. They did so with their second string QB replacing the starter. They beat Syracuse, FSU, NC State, Duke, GT, MD, and BC. Their losses were to 19th ranked VT, 15th ranked Clemson, and 13th ranked Kansas in the Orange Bowl. They were 10--2. The only game that year where they were out of the game in the final quarter was VT. They choked to Clemson, and were stage stuck in the Orange Bowl.

People need to lay off WF even if they only surface every 7-8 years.

(08-25-2013 01:58 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 11:57 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 11:26 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-25-2013 07:38 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(08-24-2013 08:14 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  the overwhelming majority of these schools are only on this list because they had the dumb luck of joining these conferences back before TV was even invented. And now, in spite of any substantial success on the football field schools like Wake Forrest and Iowa State see it as some God given birth right that they be among the chosen few to get rich while schools like Miami(Oh) that have the 16th highest career winning percentage in FBS are told to go pound sand because they didn't have the foresight to join the B1G in 1896.

Congress needs to get involved.

Iowa State sold over 43,000 season tickets this year.
How many did Miami (Oh) sell this year?
How many did Ohio sell this year?
I am a fan of the MAC but c'mon.

wait, are you saying a school with 100x the revenue stream from ESPN and 100x the exposure from ESPN found a way to get more butts in the seats than teams that have to play 1/3 of their home games on week nights in November just to get some table scraps?

that is amazing. How did poor little Iowa State over come so many obstacles to find a fan base? they obviously "earned" it.

Never mind the fact that Iowa State has only won 2 conference championships and those were in 1911 and 1912, or have only been in the final AP poll twice, or are 3-9 in bowl games, or that they rank 94th in all time winning percentage, those are just on the field results and those don't matter. What matters is that they happen to be in the right club. its not what you know, its who you know. Bravo Iowa State, bravo.

Permiterpost brings up good points. There is a certain psychology involved regarding alums/fans supporting a school when they are lumped in a conference with schools like Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, etc. vs. being in a conference with Buffalo, E. Michigan, Akron, etc. In addition, it is much easier to get folks at an Iowa State to buy season tickets to see those teams in come to town every year. When you top off the fact that the P5 schools get guaranteed prime time television and stations like ESPN ignore the G5 schools even exist you fight a losing battle up front.

I'm tired of people dumping on Wake Forest. It's the smallest school in the B-5 with an undergraduate enrollment under 8000K.

In 2006 Wake won the ACC title. They did so with their second string QB replacing the starter. They beat Syracuse, FSU, NC State, Duke, GT, MD, and BC. Their losses were to 19th ranked VT, 15th ranked Clemson, and 13th ranked Kansas in the Orange Bowl. They were 10--2. The only game that year where they were out of the game in the final quarter was VT. They choked to Clemson, and were stage stuck in the Orange Bowl.

People need to lay off WF even if they only surface every 7-8 years.

It was actually 6th ranked Louisville but I agree with the post.