Regardless of how one feels about Robert E Lee, I think his likeness is not appropriate within the context of an American patriotic display. You cannot argue that he was a patriotic American. No you can't.

(12-22-2013 10:37 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Regardless of how one feels about Robert E Lee, I think his likeness is not appropriate within the context of an American patriotic display. You cannot argue that he was a patriotic American. No you can't.

Again, read about his time in the Mexican-American wars and then come back and tell me he that line again.

The Union wanted him to lead their army and he struggled with not doing so his entire time during the Civil War, only not doing so, because the Commonwealth of Virginia asked him not to. He may have chosen wrongly in doing so, but I won't throw him in the "bad guys" in terms of his military career, unlike Benedict Arnold, who had done so in terms of "revenge" against the United States.

(12-22-2013 10:40 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 10:37 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Regardless of how one feels about Robert E Lee, I think his likeness is not appropriate within the context of an American patriotic display. You cannot argue that he was a patriotic American. No you can't.

Again, read about his time in the Mexican-American wars and then come back and tell me he that line again.

The Union wanted him to lead their army and he struggled with not doing so his entire time during the Civil War, only not doing so, because the Commonwealth of Virginia asked him not to. He may have chosen wrongly in doing so, but I won't throw him in the "bad guys" in terms of his military career, unlike Benedict Arnold, who had done so in terms of "revenge" against the United States.

Kudos to you for mentioning Benedict Arnold, thus preempting my rebuttal on this one.

Regardless of whether Robt E Lee's motivations (or whether they were more or less full of malice than Benedict Arnold's), the fact remains that he DID make war against the USA. And lets face facts. While many are aware that Robert E Lee was a prominent American military officer prior to his fighting the US Army during the Civil War, Robert E Lee is most famous for being a Confederate, not an American. There are appropriate places for Confederate symbols, signs, and historical figures. They just aren't in the War College.

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 06:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Traitor is in no way an accurate term for them.

What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

Americans who have made great contributions to military theory, performance, are heroes etc, are all appropriate in an American war college.

Confederates are Americans, to say otherwise is idiotic.

Quote:There are appropriate places for Confederate symbols, signs, and historical figures. They just aren't in the War College.

Dunno if I agree with that Tom. Again, in any war there are at least two sides. So if you're showing one side of the argument, you can't ignore history and not show the other. You could put in a "non-flattering" light, if you think that's what's needed ("History is written by the winners").

I seem to remember he was ready to be called a traitor, if the US govt found him as such, but Lincoln basically said that wasn't happening even until his assassination, and President Johnson gave Lee amnesty.

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 06:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Traitor is in no way an accurate term for them.

What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 06:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Traitor is in no way an accurate term for them.

What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

(12-22-2013 11:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 06:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Traitor is in no way an accurate term for them.

What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

Didn't he swear to the United States multiple times during his career?

(12-22-2013 11:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 06:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Traitor is in no way an accurate term for them.

What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

I don't think you can hold him up to be a hero who should be emulated either. And that's kind of the larger issue with Lee. It is true that Lee was a (somewhat) reluctant general for Virginia. He did defy a US President and Congress and made war against the state.

You just can't erase that.

(12-22-2013 11:23 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Didn't he swear to the United States multiple times during his career?

Prior to the civil war he did, when he took over the Virginia regiments and such.

And then captained the other team.

(12-22-2013 11:23 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

Didn't he swear to the United States multiple times during his career?

He carried out that oath... In fairness.

There were no traitors in our civil war.

(12-22-2013 11:25 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 07:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  What's the term?

Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

I don't think you can hold him up to be a hero who should be emulated either. And that's kind of the larger issue with Lee. It is true that Lee was a (somewhat) reluctant general for Virginia. He did defy a US President and Congress and made war against the state.

You just can't erase that.

Yes you can.

(12-22-2013 11:42 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:25 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Americans.

The idea of our national unity didn't exist when the civil war took place.

They behaved in a way they felt was overwhelmingly patriotic by siding with their state.

Calling them traitors is just simply inaccurate.

It doesn't matter how they felt about it. Most people who do bad things are doing the right thing in their minds. Do we give them a pass too?

This may be an issue where there isn't simply one answer. It all depends on your position.

You'd have to be acting against your country and your idea of it to be a traitor.

A man like Robert E Lee was not a traitor as used in the demeaning sense.

I don't think you can hold him up to be a hero who should be emulated either. And that's kind of the larger issue with Lee. It is true that Lee was a (somewhat) reluctant general for Virginia. He did defy a US President and Congress and made war against the state.

You just can't erase that.

Yes you can.

Maybe you can, but I can't. And most people can't either.

(12-22-2013 11:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 11:42 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Yes you can.

Maybe you can, but I can't. And most people can't either.

This is one where I'm agreeing with Tom in principle, although I seem to disagree with him on what can and can't be seen at a War college.

If we were at the Holocaust Museum, I'd not be thrilled about seeing some of the images and video of Hitler, but for me to understand what the Jews had to put up with, those images/videos would have to be there.

I'd think it the same with the Confederacy/Union showings at places like the War College. Doesn't mean you have to emulate every decision those military minds made.

A military college is a perfect place to display a picture etc of a man who served his respective countries, which are now one, and who is regarded as the finest example of American military leadership of the era.

Trying to affix a title to him and then base a decision off of it is silly and, in my opinion, a great example of everything that is wrong with America.

Put it this way, to take his picture down etc is to tell Southerners that they are less American. After all, unity was and is the goal is it not?

(12-22-2013 11:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 10:40 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(12-22-2013 10:37 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Regardless of how one feels about Robert E Lee, I think his likeness is not appropriate within the context of an American patriotic display. You cannot argue that he was a patriotic American. No you can't.

Again, read about his time in the Mexican-American wars and then come back and tell me he that line again.

The Union wanted him to lead their army and he struggled with not doing so his entire time during the Civil War, only not doing so, because the Commonwealth of Virginia asked him not to. He may have chosen wrongly in doing so, but I won't throw him in the "bad guys" in terms of his military career, unlike Benedict Arnold, who had done so in terms of "revenge" against the United States.

Kudos to you for mentioning Benedict Arnold, thus preempting my rebuttal on this one.

Regardless of whether Robt E Lee's motivations (or whether they were more or less full of malice than Benedict Arnold's), the fact remains that he DID make war against the USA. And lets face facts. While many are aware that Robert E Lee was a prominent American military officer prior to his fighting the US Army during the Civil War, Robert E Lee is most famous for being a Confederate, not an American. There are appropriate places for Confederate symbols, signs, and historical figures. They just aren't in the War College.

All of this.

(12-23-2013 12:08 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  A military college is a perfect place to display a picture etc of a man who served his respective countries, which are now one, and who is regarded as the finest example of American military leadership of the era.

Trying to affix a title to him and then base a decision off of it is silly and, in my opinion, a great example of everything that is wrong with America.

Put it this way, to take his picture down etc is to tell Southerners that they are less American. After all, unity was and is the goal is it not?

Can't have it both ways.

You guys have little context in your discussion.

Lee isn't a Patriot because he fought for the South, or the North. He's a Patriot because he fought for the United States Constitution over his King Lincoln.

100 years earlier, we had just learned about Kings who wanted Nationalism over Freedom and a few stood up to it. Now, look where we are 150 years later - States have almost ZERO sovereignty and the King is calling the shots by his cuff without Congressional approval.

Robert E. Lee was a visionary above a Patriot. We should all be more like him.



BTW - the best way too keep liberals off your road is name it "Lee Jackson Drive"