EDITED: Omni already posted the the maximum # of BCS teams....

Quote:If he was referring to ND, why would the vote be 16-0? Why would there be 17 teams in the conference? I have no doubt that ND would be accepted, but he wasn't referring to them.

The Big East has absolutely no chance of getting Penn State. Too many people think about conferences in terms of football and sports, and not money, University mission and academics. The Big 10 has been an God-send for the Penn State academic community. Plus, the Big 10 generates substantially more revenue than the Big East. Their is no way Penn State leaves that conference. Absolutely, no way.

Putting the academic issue aside for the moment and ONLY consider the financials (first you need the money, then you can talk about academics):

A financial package could have been be put together to appease PSU in terms of revenue distribution (a Miami like deal). The Big10 distributed about $10 million while the Miami deal was $9 million - that's 'close' and could be tweaked to give more to Penn State.

Now, with the Big10 channel and the revenue and exposure it will generate, I don't see why Penn State would leave - and that doesn't even bring into the equation about the academics.

Hoquista Wrote:

Quote:If he was referring to ND, why would the vote be 16-0? Why would there be 17 teams in the conference? I have no doubt that ND would be accepted, but he wasn't referring to them.

The Big East has absolutely no chance of getting Penn State. Too many people think about conferences in terms of football and sports, and not money, University mission and academics. The Big 10 has been an God-send for the Penn State academic community. Plus, the Big 10 generates substantially more revenue than the Big East. Their is no way Penn State leaves that conference. Absolutely, no way.

Putting the academic issue aside for the moment and ONLY consider the financials (first you need the money, then you can talk about academics):

A financial package could have been be put together to appease PSU in terms of revenue distribution (a Miami like deal). The Big10 distributed about $10 million while the Miami deal was $9 million - that's 'close' and could be tweaked to give more to Penn State.

Now, with the Big10 channel and the revenue and exposure it will generate, I don't see why Penn State would leave - and that doesn't even bring into the equation about the academics.

Remember, the Big 10 shares the wealthy equally. It gives every member the $10 million or so, regardless of how good their athletic teams are. Northwestern andMichigan get the same amount. If Penn State finishes out of the NCAAs and in 3 place in football, why would the other BE schools give them a disproportionate share of the profits. Answer: they would not. Why would PSU risk making less money in the BE in a given year if they don't achieve on the field/court? Answer: they would not. Conclusion, Penn State isn't going anywhere.

MU88 Wrote:

Hoquista Wrote:

Quote:If he was referring to ND, why would the vote be 16-0? Why would there be 17 teams in the conference? I have no doubt that ND would be accepted, but he wasn't referring to them.

The Big East has absolutely no chance of getting Penn State. Too many people think about conferences in terms of football and sports, and not money, University mission and academics. The Big 10 has been an God-send for the Penn State academic community. Plus, the Big 10 generates substantially more revenue than the Big East. Their is no way Penn State leaves that conference. Absolutely, no way.

Putting the academic issue aside for the moment and ONLY consider the financials (first you need the money, then you can talk about academics):

A financial package could have been be put together to appease PSU in terms of revenue distribution (a Miami like deal). The Big10 distributed about $10 million while the Miami deal was $9 million - that's 'close' and could be tweaked to give more to Penn State.

Now, with the Big10 channel and the revenue and exposure it will generate, I don't see why Penn State would leave - and that doesn't even bring into the equation about the academics.

Remember, the Big 10 shares the wealthy equally. It gives every member the $10 million or so, regardless of how good their athletic teams are. Northwestern andMichigan get the same amount. If Penn State finishes out of the NCAAs and in 3 place in football, why would the other BE schools give them a disproportionate share of the profits. Answer: they would not. Why would PSU risk making less money in the BE in a given year if they don't achieve on the field/court? Answer: they would not. Conclusion, Penn State isn't going anywhere.

The BE might give Penn State a disproportiate amount of revenue if they thought it was worth it to get them in the BE. The BE was going to give Miami that money in 2003 because they thought they would lose the BCS bid. It's no longer 2003 with the BCS bid in question but there are other things the BE may feel would warrent having PSU in the conferece that would be worthwhile to forgo some revenue for the short term.

Would Penn State bring in enough revenue to the conference for the conference to pay Penn State GUARENTEED reveneue? Would they increase the TV deal? Would the BE get better bowls? Would teams that host Penn State have higher attendance? These things can offset the amount of money that would be guarenteed to Penn State.

Again I am not saying the BE should sell the farm to get PSU to the BE but things can be done if the BE FB schools think that PSU is worth it have in the BE. Also, I don't think it will happen because of the formation of the Big10 channel and the revenue it will produce.

If the BE was voting on accepting ND for football...

a) Would a vote even be needed, seeing as they're a conference member for other sports/
b) Wouldn't the vote be 15-0 rather than 16-0?

MU88 Wrote:

Hoquista Wrote:

Quote:If he was referring to ND, why would the vote be 16-0? Why would there be 17 teams in the conference? I have no doubt that ND would be accepted, but he wasn't referring to them.

The Big East has absolutely no chance of getting Penn State. Too many people think about conferences in terms of football and sports, and not money, University mission and academics. The Big 10 has been an God-send for the Penn State academic community. Plus, the Big 10 generates substantially more revenue than the Big East. Their is no way Penn State leaves that conference. Absolutely, no way.

Putting the academic issue aside for the moment and ONLY consider the financials (first you need the money, then you can talk about academics):

A financial package could have been be put together to appease PSU in terms of revenue distribution (a Miami like deal). The Big10 distributed about $10 million while the Miami deal was $9 million - that's 'close' and could be tweaked to give more to Penn State.

Now, with the Big10 channel and the revenue and exposure it will generate, I don't see why Penn State would leave - and that doesn't even bring into the equation about the academics.

Remember, the Big 10 shares the wealthy equally. It gives every member the $10 million or so, regardless of how good their athletic teams are. Northwestern andMichigan get the same amount. If Penn State finishes out of the NCAAs and in 3 place in football, why would the other BE schools give them a disproportionate share of the profits. Answer: they would not. Why would PSU risk making less money in the BE in a given year if they don't achieve on the field/court? Answer: they would not. Conclusion, Penn State isn't going anywhere.

Again, putting aside the academic issue (which ultimately will matter) too many fans look at the issue from how much money the conference generates for its members.

The Big 10 and the ACC will distribute between 10-11 million per team for each of its members based upon current contracts.

The Big East will distribute between 6-7 million per team for each of its football members based upon upcoming contracts.

Let's assume Penn State is considering Big East membership (BIG assumption). The conference and the Penn State administration knows that the addition of the Nittany Lions would increase that BE payout an additional half a million to 3/4 of a million per football team.

If the current football teams are willing to forego those additional monies and allow Penn State to receive them, than 4-5 million added onto the current 6-7 million means that in terms of conference payouts the Big 10 and BE payout are basically the same for the Nittany Lions.

In this regard, the conference is now out of the picture and it becomes a Penn State analysis of what leaving the Big 10 and going to the Big East would mean in terms of other types of revenues and in terms of exposure.

In terms of athletic exposure/prominence, with the new ESPN contracts and with being in a league not dominated by two traditional powers like Michigan and Ohio State - the Nittany Lions could actually benefit. While the Nits are capable of winning the Big10 once or twice a decade, they have to feel that in the Big East they could win the conference and go to a BCS Bowl at least 4 or 5 times a decade.

In terms of other athletic revenue (donors, etc.), being considered top dog with increased athletic exposure in an Eastern League (where many of their alumni are located) they could see an increase in such revenue.

But, is this wash in conference monies and a potential increase in athletic exposure/prominence and potential athletic donor increase sufficient enough to offset the academic prestige and revenue of being part of the CIC? Probably not. Which is why it is unlikely the Big East will ever lure the Nits to the league without the Big 10 allowing them to remain a part of the CIC or the Big East developing its own academic consortium or in partnership with another conference.

Cheers,
Neil

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THIS IS TEMPLE WE'VE DONE WHAT YOU ASKED - WE'VE MADE THE CALL!!!!!!!!!

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As usual, Neil, good points.

omnicarrier Wrote:Let's assume Penn State is considering Big East membership (BIG assumption). The conference and the Penn State administration knows that the addition of the Nittany Lions would increase that BE payout an additional half a million to 3/4 of a million per football team.

If the current football teams are willing to forego those additional monies and allow Penn State to receive them, than 4-5 million added onto the current 6-7 million means that in terms of conference payouts the Big 10 and BE payout are basically the same for the Nittany Lions.

So let's ask the existing BE programs, are you willing to sacrifice $ so that PSU can maintain their revenue stream? As a fan of Cuse, I vote no.

Quote:But, is this wash in conference monies and a potential increase in athletic exposure/prominence and potential athletic donor increase sufficient enough to offset the academic prestige and revenue of being part of the CIC? Probably not. Which is why it is unlikely the Big East will ever lure the Nits to the league without the Big 10 allowing them to remain a part of the CIC or the Big East developing its own academic consortium or in partnership with another conference.

Without knowing for sure about the expanse of programs at other schools, I'm guessing the BE has about 6 schools comparable to the CIC members. Cuse, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Georgetown, Rutgers... I'm confident the new 1-A members have some quality and extensive research programs but don't think they match-up with the CIC's orientation. Bottom line, any attempt by the BE to mimic this will take time. So it's back to building on the existing framework.

One thing PSU would love, however, is the ability to shop their program more aggresively and directly around the northeast, especially if it can ursurp ND's appeal in those markets.

Looking at the website of the CIC, it seems as if research prowess, doctoral degrees awarded, and library breadth are the most important characteristics for inclusion.

According to the 2004 statistics provided by the National Sciences Foundation, the CIC schools rank from as high as #3 (Michigan) to #54 with the University of Chicago. The lowest ranked Big Ten member was Iowa at #44.

Given the above, the most likely Big East candidates for the CIC are Pitt #24, Rutgers #51, and Cincinnati #53. South Florida at #62 and UConn at #74 seem within reach as well. Syracuse at #149 and G-Town at #106 probably don't make the cut.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06323/tables/tab27.xls

http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/AboutCIC.shtml

GunnerFan Wrote:As usual, Neil, good points.

omnicarrier Wrote:Let's assume Penn State is considering Big East membership (BIG assumption). The conference and the Penn State administration knows that the addition of the Nittany Lions would increase that BE payout an additional half a million to 3/4 of a million per football team.

If the current football teams are willing to forego those additional monies and allow Penn State to receive them, than 4-5 million added onto the current 6-7 million means that in terms of conference payouts the Big 10 and BE payout are basically the same for the Nittany Lions.

So let's ask the existing BE programs, are you willing to sacrifice $ so that PSU can maintain their revenue stream? As a fan of Cuse, I vote no.

But that really isn't the question. The question isn't are the football teams willing to give up some of their own current revenue stream to get Penn State in as a partner. The question is, are they willing to allow the extra revenue stream generated by getting Penn State into the league to go entirely to Penn State? After all, it's not as though that extra revenue would be there if the Nits weren't part of the league.

Quote:

Quote:But, is this wash in conference monies and a potential increase in athletic exposure/prominence and potential athletic donor increase sufficient enough to offset the academic prestige and revenue of being part of the CIC? Probably not. Which is why it is unlikely the Big East will ever lure the Nits to the league without the Big 10 allowing them to remain a part of the CIC or the Big East developing its own academic consortium or in partnership with another conference.

Without knowing for sure about the expanse of programs at other schools, I'm guessing the BE has about 6 schools comparable to the CIC members. Cuse, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Georgetown, Rutgers... I'm confident the new 1-A members have some quality and extensive research programs but don't think they match-up with the CIC's orientation. Bottom line, any attempt by the BE to mimic this will take time. So it's back to building on the existing framework.

Again, this assumes that this would be a conference-only academic consortium. It doesn't have to be nor should it be.

It could be Big East-related whereby the conference comes to be the PR machine/public face for the overall academic alliance. But the institutions involved don't have to confined to BE conference schools. And the partners need to include businesses, local communities, and state and federal government entities.

New York State already has developed these type of academic consortiums along the Hudson River that combine both public and private research universities with businesses and community organizations.

I've provided a link to a report done of the progress made at the Syracuse Center of Excellence.

http://www.syracusecoe.org/pdfs/coe%20pr...0final.pdf

The five NYS Centers of Excellence are in their infancy now, but as they continue to grow and develop, the next wave will probably be along the Delaware River to try and tie in New Jersey and Pennsylvania academic consortiums. Again, using the interstate nature of the CIC but expanding it beyond what I see as the limitations of the CIC. Pennsylvania already has the Keystone Alliance academic consortium with its emphasis on national security, which this Northeast consortium can readily tie into and perhaps even expand the scope of the Keystone Alliance. And I'm sure there are similar efforts in New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, West Virginia, Ohio, etc.

Quote:One thing PSU would love, however, is the ability to shop their program more aggresively and directly around the northeast, especially if it can ursurp ND's appeal in those markets.

Well, I doubt they could ever truly usurp ND's appeal in those markets, but they already surpass them in some and they could keep themselves from eroding in popularity by returning to their northeastern roots - providing the athletic conference was a good fit and they wouldn't be taking a step back in terms of academics.

Cheers,
Neil

dalbc Wrote:Looking at the website of the CIC, it seems as if research prowess, doctoral degrees awarded, and library breadth are the most important characteristics for inclusion.

According to the 2004 statistics provided by the National Sciences Foundation, the CIC schools rank from as high as #3 (Michigan) to #54 with the University of Chicago. The lowest ranked Big Ten member was Iowa at #44.

Given the above, the most likely Big East candidates for the CIC are Pitt #24, Rutgers #51, and Cincinnati #53. South Florida at #62 and UConn at #74 seem within reach as well. Syracuse at #149 and G-Town at #106 probably don't make the cut.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06323/tables/tab27.xls

http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/AboutCIC.shtml

Again, don't mean to sound like a broken record, but $$$ amounts expended is not the only indicator of how much research is being done at a higher education institution, since it costs more to do research in medicine, engineering, and the sciences than it does to do social science, media, and business research. These are the areas where a Georgetown and Syracuse excel.

Not to mention that if library resources is indeed one of the key components than Syracuse University's Top 10 ranking in this area should at least get them 'back on the table." ;-)

Cheers,
Neil

That fact that Big Ten has schools with far larger stadiums is a huge factor........Army and Navy might be what BE has in mind. Neither would need to bring their hoops team since the patriot league works well for them. BE doesn't have a title game, so the Army-Navy game wouldn't have to be moved. From an academic stand point it a good move, unless John Kerry doesn't count military academies as real colleges or universities since those kids are getting a military education.

Quote:Army and Navy might be what BE has in mind.

-- army and navy wouldn't require a all the the schools in the league to vote on them...it would just be the football schools...the mention of a 16-0 vote at least implies that an all sports member is on the BEs wish list

Quote:So let's ask the existing BE programs, are you willing to sacrifice $ so that PSU can maintain their revenue stream? As a fan of Cuse, I vote no.

-- As a BE fan...I could care less if PSU is making 10 million in the league and WVU is making 7-8million...we basically were working under the same system when Miami was in the Big East...having PSU bring two immeidate benefits

#1 Having PSU in the BE helps with recuriting. Since the Nits have left, big 10 schools have invaded Pa and NJ looking for players. If my some chance, Penn St would leave the Big 10, I really think that would go along way to limiting the mid western in terms of how successful they could be recruiting in the east.

#2 Playing Penn St =s a sellout....Just playing the Nits at home every other yr is going to bring revenue for the Big East teams. Certainly much more then playing a IAA team during yrs you only have three conference home games

Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:#2 Playing Penn St =s a sellout....Just playing the Nits at home every other yr is going to bring revenue for the Big East teams. Certainly much more then playing a IAA team during yrs you only have three conference home games

That is why UofL is expanding by 21,000 seats. That's not referring to PSU specifically, but regarding any Top 25 opponents or UK that UofL can host. I'm not reaching at all to say UofL could have sold another 50,000 tickets (total for all 3) just to the UK, Miami, & WVU games this season. Right now we basically draw the same whether its WVU or a Temple due to 101% capacity.

omnicarrier Wrote:But that really isn't the question. The question isn't are the football teams willing to give up some of their own current revenue stream to get Penn State in as a partner. The question is, are they willing to allow the extra revenue stream generated by getting Penn State into the league to go entirely to Penn State? After all, it's not as though that extra revenue would be there if the Nits weren't part of the league.

Sifting through the semantics, we're back to where it all began, eh? How much special privilege should be allowed to PSU. I know technically WVU and co wouldn't be missing any money, but would they feel comfortable with leveraging PSU thusly? Based on history, when Syracuse and other balked at the idea and instead opted for the BE, one could say "No way." Then again, given how the BE is in essence leveraging ND, one would think it's entirely possible.

Quote:It could be Big East-related whereby the conference comes to be the PR machine/public face for the overall academic alliance. But the institutions involved don't have to confined to BE conference schools. And the partners need to include businesses, local communities, and state and federal government entities.

New York State already has developed these type of academic consortiums along the Hudson River that combine both public and private research universities with businesses and community organizations.

I've provided a link to a report done of the progress made at the Syracuse Center of Excellence.

http://www.syracusecoe.org/pdfs/coe%20pr...0final.pdf

The five NYS Centers of Excellence are in their infancy now, but as they continue to grow and develop, the next wave will probably be along the Delaware River to try and tie in New Jersey and Pennsylvania academic consortiums. Again, using the interstate nature of the CIC but expanding it beyond what I see as the limitations of the CIC. Pennsylvania already has the Keystone Alliance academic consortium with its emphasis on national security, which this Northeast consortium can readily tie into and perhaps even expand the scope of the Keystone Alliance. And I'm sure there are similar efforts in New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, West Virginia, Ohio, etc.

I've wondered aloud before if the above programs would in fact counter the attempt to bring a CIC to the northeast. So many other machinations involved, established State-run systems and affiliations... I'm quite proud of the CfE efforts and am pleased of the early returns, so to speak.

Put simply, I think the same attributes that make the northeast unique (cultural, pop density, history, etc) also highlight the differences that enable the CIC to succeed to the degree it has for the midwestern State flagships.

GunnerFan Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:But that really isn't the question. The question isn't are the football teams willing to give up some of their own current revenue stream to get Penn State in as a partner. The question is, are they willing to allow the extra revenue stream generated by getting Penn State into the league to go entirely to Penn State? After all, it's not as though that extra revenue would be there if the Nits weren't part of the league.

Sifting through the semantics, we're back to where it all began, eh? How much special priviledge should be allowed to PSU. I know technically WVU and co wouldn't be missing any money, but would they feel comfortable with leveraging PSU thusly? Based on history, when Syracuse and other balked at the idea and instead opted for the BE, one could say "No way." Then again, given how the BE is in essence leveraging ND, one would think it's entirely possible.

I believe the question of how much special privileges would be accorded to Penn State (IF they were interested, which is a BIG IF) has been asked and answered by the special treatment that Miami and ND have received by Big East institutions.

And needless to say, as a Syracuse fan, I firmly believe the Nits would give back to the league far more than Miami and ND combined have done for their 'special' accomodations.

Quote:

Quote:It could be Big East-related whereby the conference comes to be the PR machine/public face for the overall academic alliance. But the institutions involved don't have to confined to BE conference schools. And the partners need to include businesses, local communities, and state and federal government entities.

New York State already has developed these type of academic consortiums along the Hudson River that combine both public and private research universities with businesses and community organizations.

I've provided a link to a report done of the progress made at the Syracuse Center of Excellence.

http://www.syracusecoe.org/pdfs/coe%20pr...0final.pdf

The five NYS Centers of Excellence are in their infancy now, but as they continue to grow and develop, the next wave will probably be along the Delaware River to try and tie in New Jersey and Pennsylvania academic consortiums. Again, using the interstate nature of the CIC but expanding it beyond what I see as the limitations of the CIC. Pennsylvania already has the Keystone Alliance academic consortium with its emphasis on national security, which this Northeast consortium can readily tie into and perhaps even expand the scope of the Keystone Alliance. And I'm sure there are similar efforts in New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, West Virginia, Ohio, etc.

I've wondered aloud before if the above programs would in fact counter the attempt to bring a CIC to the northeast. So many other machinations involved, established State-run systems and affiliations... I'm quite proud of the CfE efforts and am pleased of the early returns, so to speak.

Put simply, I think the same attributes that make the northeast unique (cultural, pop density, history, etc) also highlight the differences that enable the CIC to succeed to the degree it has for the midwestern State flagships.

And as I have said before, I think the variety of institutional types and the multi-discipline approach is better for building collaboration with businesses, governmental agencies, and community organizations that will allow such a consortium to serve the needs of this 21st century society better than the current structure of the CIC.

IMHO, it is only a matter of time before the CIC will need to adapt or risk losing its being the premier academic research consortium in the nation. Especially considering that the Ivy League resides in the northeast and are potential partners for the consortium I'm envisioning (considering Cornell and Columbia are already partners with the NYS Centers of Excellence and Penn is a member of the Keystone Alliance).

Cheers,
Neil

ND = pipe dream - they aren't giving up fb independence.

Penn St. = pipe dream - The BE east did them the biggest favor in the world when those small time snobbish NE region schools rejected them. They are in a better conference overall (sports and academic) with more money than the BE could ever shake at them with a stick.

Maryland = pipe dream - they are a charter member of the ACC and voted to grab our 2 thugs and BC to make their conference stronger.

BC = Let them go. They are traders anyway. Besides if they come crawling back Cuse or another BE school will just take their place.

The BE will have to build from within with Nova, move on with a 9th FB only or a 17th all sports team to get another FB team in the fold for FB or just stay put at 8. Schedule a combined ND, Army, Navy, and Temple for the 8th game, schedule a 1AA or the MAC for the 9th game, and use the B-10, SEC and ACC for games 10, 11, and 12.

Otherwise split and be done with it. Things are going good right now so the issue for number nine is on the back burner. Have a year that sucks again like 2003 or like the ACC this year and the issue returns to the for front with a vengeance. At the very least it is an out of season topic for now.

People are looking for too much. Mike Tranghese most certainly would never be talking about any scenario that can cause a Big East split. It's quite obvious that Penn State is the big fish he wants. We all know where Notre Dame stands. They are having their cake and eating it too.

I don't where people are getting the idea that the Big East will somehow suddenly have 10 members. Penn State would make 9 and there wouldn't be a need for anyone else. I also stand by my idea the basketball schools will demand another basketball school for an even 18 teams.

As for his comment about a 16-0 unanimous vote not including Notre dame, come on, do you think he's parsing his words that carefully? He can't go on TV and say "15-0 or 16-0" because that would make it too obvious. Notre Dame knows what he wants and he knows he won't get it.

Notre Dame earns $9 Million each year just from NBC.

That TV contract expires in 2010...and no doubt, especially if Charlie Weiss is still there and if ND is back in the Top 10-15...those $$$$$$ will only continue to escalate.

It's hard to see ND joining ANY Football Conference...especially when it can keep ALL of their TV $$$$$ and all of their Bowl $$$$.

Plus...even when they play road games...almost all of them are guaranteed to be on National TV (i.e. CBS, ESPN, ABC, etc...).

Unless some Conference offers ND $20 Million per year...JUST for Football...ND will always stay independent.

KL

PS. Link on ND's TV Contract and future scheduling.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story...FHeadlines

There have been many good points and possibilities brought up in this thread so far! However, one thing is obvious to me is:

Mike Tranghese is a basketball man and will do anything he can to protect those schools intertest over the 8 1A football schools interest! Abraham Lincoln said it best, "a house divided cannot stand"! And a house divided is what the Big East is! There is no way that the small private Catholic university can have the same goals and football interests that the 8 1A football playing schools have! WE are just a time bomb waiting to explode.