(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 04:52 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  What are the odds a leftwinger sues Trump for exceeding his authority on this EO?

That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?

If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

(06-20-2018 10:01 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 04:52 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  What are the odds a leftwinger sues Trump for exceeding his authority on this EO?

That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?

If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

False. Catch and release is essentially an open border. If there is no penalty for sneaking over and getting caught---then immigrants will quickly figure out they just need to keep sneaking over as a family until they arent caught. Simple--cheaper and much faster than jumping through all the legal hoops.

Frankly---there is no such thing as zero tolerance. Either you are here legally or you are not. There really isnt much grey area when you are sneaking across a deserted area miles from any lodging in a country you are not legally registered to be in. Zero tolerance is really just enforcing the law. Catch and release is essentially NOT enforcing the law. Either we enforce it or we change it.

(06-20-2018 10:01 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 04:52 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  What are the odds a leftwinger sues Trump for exceeding his authority on this EO?

That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?
If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

Actually, it pretty much does. If you disagree, then explain exactly how dropping zero tolerance amounts to anything other than open border in te real world. Not some abstraction, but what actually happens.

Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

Under Trump's EO, we are keeping families together. That's illegal under Flores, but Flores is a 9th Circuit decision, so maybe it will get overturned. Provided, of course somebody sues. Now I can't imagine a good faith plaintiff, but that doesn't mean that leftists won't find someone and pay him/her to sue.

The left is really good at saying what not to do. Not so good at what to do instead.

(06-20-2018 10:01 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 04:52 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  What are the odds a leftwinger sues Trump for exceeding his authority on this EO?

That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?

If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

You do understand the nature of crime and punishment, correct? You're advocating to allow a certain element to break the law without consequence. Wow.

Hell, I want to rob a bank, could you form a movement that supports my efforts in doing that and urges that I not be charged when caught?

(06-20-2018 10:01 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 04:52 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  What are the odds a leftwinger sues Trump for exceeding his authority on this EO?

That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?

If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

If you want to keep the families together, it is quite simple. It is either camps or the wall. The current law is camps. Releasing illegal immigrants free into our country is a non-starter. Close the border and then Mexico will deal with it however they see fit.

(06-21-2018 07:52 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  If you want to keep the families together, it is quite simple. It is either camps or the wall. The current law is camps. Releasing illegal immigrants free into our country is a non-starter. Close the border and then Mexico will deal with it however they see fit.

But, then how would Democrats get votes???

(06-21-2018 07:44 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 10:01 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 06:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:00 PM)shere khan Wrote:  That is the next chess move. Force cryin chucks hand

I think it’s going to go the other way - the court will step in & declare it a violation of the Flora decision, the EO will get reversed, & Trump will just say that the judge is “forcing” him to keep separating families (which is, of course, BS - he could have them drop the zero tolerance policy at any point).

So you just want to drop all pretense of maintaining a border and let anybody in?

If not, then how do you distinguish your position from that?

Dropping zero tolerance does not equate with an open border. Or, keep “zero tolerance” but stop the practice of charging them with criminal offenses. Keep the families together.

You do understand the nature of crime and punishment, correct? You're advocating to allow a certain element to break the law without consequence. Wow.

Hell, I want to rob a bank, could you form a movement that supports my efforts in doing that and urges that I not be charged when caught?

misdemeanor vs. felony = a civil vs. criminal charge.

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

(06-21-2018 10:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

DACA applies to people who have been here for years (since 2007, IIRC. They also have to be a current student, or have a diploma/GED/military service).

Owl's question is about here & now, people who have been caught at the border and don't have proper documentation. Two totally different situations.

(06-21-2018 10:55 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

DACA applies to people who have been here for years (since 2007, IIRC. They also have to be a current student, or have a diploma/GED/military service).

Owl's question is about here & now, people who have been caught at the border and don't have proper documentation. Two totally different situations.

Same situation, only extrapolated out a few years. The end game from the left is all about letting anybody that gets to the border stay here. In other words, US immigration laws shouldn't exist.

(06-21-2018 11:03 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:55 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

DACA applies to people who have been here for years (since 2007, IIRC. They also have to be a current student, or have a diploma/GED/military service).

Owl's question is about here & now, people who have been caught at the border and don't have proper documentation. Two totally different situations.

Same situation, only extrapolated out a few years. The end game from the left is all about letting anybody that gets to the border stay here. In other words, US immigration laws shouldn't exist.

Not remotely the same, but whatever.

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

“Operationally what that means is we will have to separate your family,” Nielsen told NPR in May. “That’s no different than what we do every day in every part of the United States when an adult of a family commits a crime. If you as a parent break into a house, you will be incarcerated by police and thereby separated from your family. We’re doing the same thing at the border.”

(06-21-2018 11:06 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Hypothetical. Family shows up at the border with no documents. What happens to them under your proposed approach, and how does that differ from 1) zero tolerance and 2) open borders?

The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

“Operationally what that means is we will have to separate your family,” Nielsen told NPR in May. “That’s no different than what we do every day in every part of the United States when an adult of a family commits a crime. If you as a parent break into a house, you will be incarcerated by police and thereby separated from your family. We’re doing the same thing at the border.”

Well, the changes to the charges were implemented back in April, so yes; the families were separated once they started charging the adults with felonies.

If I have a misdemeanor charge of trespassing, for example, my kids are not taken away from me. That's what was happening prior to April.

(06-20-2018 11:47 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:21 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:19 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:18 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Lets see the EO. I suspect they'll be something in it for his 4chan racist homies. But we shall see. Under no circumstances should Trump receive much credit for stopping an inhumane policy HE arbitrarily created.

lol, no matter what it is the left will criticize something.

Yes, we are absolutely correct to criticize Trump's original policies that created this mess in the first place. You don't commit crimes against humanity and then get to say 'oopsie'. Its not how this works.

Yea but you forget they broke the law.
A plan was offered months ago and the Dems walked away just like last night.

This actually looks worse on the left because you're stomping and running away from the table isn't working.

They were induced to break the law by DJT's policy of shutting down legal entry points for asylum seekers.

A plan that encouraged hostage taking was offered. No, we aren't voting for a removal of asylum laws for women, LGBTs, and persons of color. No we aren't voting for a stupid wall. No matter how much you abuse kids in order to try to force it. DACA recipients should have a path to citizenship in the only country they've ever known.

Creating a crisis shouldn't be rewarded. Trump created this crisis. He's just trying to limit the damage. But I'm sure there will be something in it for the racist trolls he implemented this unconscionable policy in the first place.

Charlottesville
Mexicans are rapists
Muslim bans
Attacks on Transpersons
Slavish support for human rights abusers
Central Park 5
Birtherism
Attacks on the physically disabled
Support for discrimination against LGBT persons
Appointing bigots to the Federal Bench
Kizhr Khan
Support for Tony Perkins
Endorsing Roy Moore
Bragging about sexually assaulting women
Emoluments
The most corrupt Administration in US history, and its not even close.

Look, there's no 3d chess going on here. He is a crass, self serving bigot. And all of his remaining supporters can't claim that 'he really isn't like that'. You stay with him, you're endorsing everything he does now.

And there's another facet of Trumpism. He's such a selfish tool that just about everyone that helps him ends up in a worse position.

So, if he decides he can't get away with putting 3 year olds in dog kennels for the time being, that's just going to kick this down the road until the next outrage. And with his Administration largely composed of bigots, racists, grifters, and incompetents of the rankist order, its only a matter of time before another Trump created crisis develops.

my word, could you possibly get more leftist wacko ? would it be possible?

If you wrote a cartoon about the looney toons on both sides of the aisle you would be the script for the dems..

wow

(06-21-2018 11:04 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 11:03 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:55 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  The adults have the misdemeanor illegal entry charge, & the family is kept together in a detention center to await their hearing, as opposed to splitting the kids away from the parents & sending parents to federal jail when they get a felony charge. It's not ideal, but the kids aren't removed from them.

So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

DACA applies to people who have been here for years (since 2007, IIRC. They also have to be a current student, or have a diploma/GED/military service).

Owl's question is about here & now, people who have been caught at the border and don't have proper documentation. Two totally different situations.

Same situation, only extrapolated out a few years. The end game from the left is all about letting anybody that gets to the border stay here. In other words, US immigration laws shouldn't exist.

Not remotely the same, but whatever.

It's exactly the same. If these people end up released into the US in 10-15 years there will be cries from the left for another DACA like program. The end game remains the same, import voters.

Trump clearly owns the Libs on this issue. Their outrage says it all. Really sad actually.

(06-21-2018 11:29 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 11:04 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 11:03 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:55 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 10:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  So now liberals are for punishing children for their parent's crimes. Huh, I thought the previous liberal defense for DACA was that we shouldn't punish (deport) kids because their parents brought them here illegally.

DACA applies to people who have been here for years (since 2007, IIRC. They also have to be a current student, or have a diploma/GED/military service).

Owl's question is about here & now, people who have been caught at the border and don't have proper documentation. Two totally different situations.

Same situation, only extrapolated out a few years. The end game from the left is all about letting anybody that gets to the border stay here. In other words, US immigration laws shouldn't exist.

Not remotely the same, but whatever.

It's exactly the same. If these people end up released into the US in 10-15 years there will be cries from the left for another DACA like program. The end game remains the same, import voters.

Yep, they've essentially birth controlled and homosexualized white liberals and aborted blacks out of significance within a few generations. Unfettered illegal immigration is the only way they can stay competitive. Democrats are the party of eugenics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...s-out.html

In an exclusive interview with DailyMail.com, Hernandez, who lives in Puerto Cortes, Honduras, says that he was told yesterday that his wife and child are being detained at a family residential center in Texas but are together and are doing 'fine.'

(06-22-2018 04:36 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...s-out.html

In an exclusive interview with DailyMail.com, Hernandez, who lives in Puerto Cortes, Honduras, says that he was told yesterday that his wife and child are being detained at a family residential center in Texas but are together and are doing 'fine.'

My wife asked me what I was laughing at this morning when I saw this story. It's no longer a question of IF the narrative pushed by the leftist media will be proven false, but when. One would think with nearly 2,000 kids separated from their parents in the last 6 weeks (according to said leftist media), they could find a legitimate photo to push their agenda.