Mike: why are the academic needs of D-I athletes irrelevant to you?

(04-07-2020 12:13 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Mike: why are the academic needs of D-I athletes irrelevant to you?

What? When did suggest anything like that?

My apologies! The nesting of the quotes led to misatttibution. I should be calling out Cajun.

(04-06-2020 08:32 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 07:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 06:55 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  They can only count one FCS win toward bowl eligibility.

That is the current rule. If the price of buy games keeps going up, it's not difficult to imagine a push for allowing two games vs. FCS teams to count toward bowl eligibility. When a G5 buy game costs $1 million more than an FCS buy game, and the P5 team sells about the same number of tickets whether the opponent is Ball State or Indiana State, then the P5 team has a million-dollar-per-year incentive to support a rule change.

I could certainly see that happening. If the P5's adopted a "2 FCS games" rule right now, it would ruin at least a few G5's. Some G5's are far too reliant on body-bag games.

It wouldn't destroy programs, it would just lower the price paid to G5 teams because it would more than double the number of teams available for a buy game spot that previously was limited to G5 teams (assuming a team already has one FCS team on the schedule).

Example: On the 2020 schedule, Minnesota has bought two buy games, vs. FBS Florida Atlantic and FCS Tennessee Tech. If Minnesota could count two FCS games instead of one, then Florida Atlantic would essentially be competing with FCS teams for that game, and FAU (or another G5 team) would be offered less money because the less expensive FCS option would be available to Minnesota if the price of buying a G5 opponent was too high for their taste.

Are there some teams that would think playing two FCS opponents in a season is going too far? Sure. Teams with a legit shot at the playoff wouldn't want to do it, but that's a small group of teams.

(04-06-2020 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 04:01 PM)Wedge Wrote:  As always: They'll never get all 26 schools to agree on anything like this.

The only way anything happens to shuffle these leagues is if a group of schools leaves on their own and figures the NCAA might give them a waiver of the 8-year waiting period for March Madness autobids. It could be 8 or 9 schools near the Atlantic coast leaving together, or it could be the Texas schools leaving as a group and getting a few others to go with them. Something like that is far more likely than getting 26 schools to agree on a way of rearranging all of them with no money changing hands.

You kinda end up at almost the same place if you go by breakaways. Breakaways does open up the window for more blending from LA-AR into AL.

A breakaway probably produces the same outcome the MWC produced. You got the compact (by western US standards) MWC and you got the doughnut shaped WAC with some schools in the Pacific time zone and some in the Central and stragglers just in the Mountain time zone.

A breakaway is very unlikely to be the far western or far eastern schools but rather those in the middle who fit awkwardly in their current division of their league and thus most likely to desire change. They leave behind schools scattered East and West with few bridge schools in the middle.

You get one league that makes geographic sense and the rest is a mess.

(04-07-2020 02:17 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 04:01 PM)Wedge Wrote:  As always: They'll never get all 26 schools to agree on anything like this.

The only way anything happens to shuffle these leagues is if a group of schools leaves on their own and figures the NCAA might give them a waiver of the 8-year waiting period for March Madness autobids. It could be 8 or 9 schools near the Atlantic coast leaving together, or it could be the Texas schools leaving as a group and getting a few others to go with them. Something like that is far more likely than getting 26 schools to agree on a way of rearranging all of them with no money changing hands.

You kinda end up at almost the same place if you go by breakaways. Breakaways does open up the window for more blending from LA-AR into AL.

A breakaway probably produces the same outcome the MWC produced. You got the compact (by western US standards) MWC and you got the doughnut shaped WAC with some schools in the Pacific time zone and some in the Central and stragglers just in the Mountain time zone.

A breakaway is very unlikely to be the far western or far eastern schools but rather those in the middle who fit awkwardly in their current division of their league and thus most likely to desire change. They leave behind schools scattered East and West with few bridge schools in the middle.

You get one league that makes geographic sense and the rest is a mess.

I don't think the middle is where the discontent is coming from, though, so I don't expect a breakaway coming from there.

In the Sun Belt middle, teams are seem pretty content. Troy, USA, Arkansas State, ULM, Louisiana, Ga. State, and Georgia Southern are playing teams to their east and west that they want to play. The Louisiana schools and A-State play in Trxas and in Alabama and Georgia like they want to do, and the teams in the east have rivalries growing.

In C-USA's middle, USM is probably not very happy. I'll give you that. But it's mainly because they didn't get into the AAC with the schools they founded C-USA with, not necessarily because they want to start up their own league with teams in C-USA and Sun Belt middle. UAB wants to be in the east, so they would be more likely to be included in an eastern breakaway group than in a group that's all Central time zone.

Going back to your comparison to the Mountain West/WAC breakup... the discontent originated with schools in the middle of the 16 team WAC: Front Range schools plus the Utah schools. But in the case of the Sun Belt and C-USA, it is eastern schools who are most unhappy. ODU is example number 1.

(04-06-2020 01:52 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I'll show my work:

C-USA
East: Charlotte, FAU, FIU, Marshall, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky
West: Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, UAB, UTEP, UTSA

Sun Belt
East: Appalachian State, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama, Troy University
West: Arkansas State, Little Rock, Louisiana Cajuns, Louisiana Warhawks, Texas-Arlington, Texas State

Duh geographic trades:
Swap UNC-Charlotte for Texas State.
Swap Old Dominion for Texas-Arlington.

Easy geographic trades:
Swap Florida Atlantic for Louisiana-Lafayette.
Swap Florida International for Louisiana-Monroe.

The advantage of "showing your work" is seeing how easily it all falls apart. A number of CUSA East teams are going to vote "No" on losing their game in south Florida. Louisiana may be good recruiting grounds, but it ain't Florida and they'd be building networks there from scratch against heavy SEC and secondarily Big-12 competition.

Meanwhile the Florida schools are likely more interest in exposure on the Eastern seaboard than the inland southeast, so they vote "No" too.

So it stalls at step one, there is no steps 2, 3 or etc.

(04-06-2020 06:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  I've said before that I think change will be initiated by the C-USA eastern schools, rather than any of the other three divisions within C-USA and the Sun Belt.

Old Dominion is CLEARLY discontent. The other eastern schools recruit in Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and Virginia more than they do in Texas, so I think they would have little issue giving up games in the western side of the southeast if it means they can get more in those states i just listed.

Charlotte would be on board with the opportunity to drop Texas schools in favor of Georgia schools and a huge potential rivalry with App State, not to mention one with nearby Coastal Carolina.

What I envision is a multi-school withdrawal from C-USA in the east to form a 10-12 league with Sun Belt schools and maybe Liberty and/or JMU. Not every eastern school would be included, so someone may be forced into indeoendence.

I think the end result would be two conferences: the new one started by the C-USA eastern schools, and either the remaining, western Sun Belt (who would gobble up many of the remaining C-USA schools) or the remaining, western C-USA (who would gobble up many of the remaining Sun Belt schools). Basically, there would be a new eastern league, and either the Sun Belt or C-USA would dissolve.

ODU has been discontent ever since East Carolina left C-USA. I'm guessing ODU is trying to find some way that they can be ECU's conference mate again. But, in fairness to ODU, they aren't the only discontent ones. Southern Miss has been discontented since ECU left as well. Even Marshall isn't too happy about the present status of C-USA. UTEP fans want to give the MWC another shot, so the potential for realignment is there.

C-USA East Division splits and adds Appalachian State, Georgia Southern and Georgia State.

The following remainders form a conference: Arkansas State, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, Louisiana Tech, North Texas, South Alabama, Southern Mississippi, UTSA, Troy

Others: UAB and Rice have gone to the AAC, Coastal Carolina - Atlantic Sun/football independent, Little Rock - Missouri Valley, UTA - WAC, UTEP - WAC/football independent

If we're doing one-for-one swaps, here's my solution:

To CUSA (6): Appalachian State, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama, Troy
To Sun Belt (6): Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, UTEP, UTSA

Thus we have:

CUSA
North: Appalachian State, Charlotte, Coastal Carolina, Marshall, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky
South: FAU, FIU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama, Troy, UAB
Protected crossover: Appalachian State/Georgia Southern

Sun Belt
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, Southern Miss
West: North Texas, Rice, Texas State, UTEP, UTSA
NFB: Little Rock, Texas-Arlington

(04-07-2020 01:46 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  My apologies! The nesting of the quotes led to misatttibution. I should be calling out Cajun.

I completely understand the academic needs of a college study and the travel, my mom is a college coach so I’ve seen it all my life. But the bottom line is small geographic conference either kills themselves off or leave no room to grown, and dilute the talent pool. If people wanted these tight travel conferences there is a great place for that called FCS, and universities knew what they were strong themselves into before they made the jump.

FAU and FIU left the Sunbelt a number of years ago. Those schools are in Atlantic side of Florida, Orlando is easier to get to. Not sure how many fans will drive 10+ hours and I live in Mobile, much less people that have to drive from Troy, Lafayette, Monroe, Ark State. Their fan bases aren't going to travel well our way either.

(04-07-2020 07:52 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  If we're doing one-for-one swaps, here's my solution:

To CUSA (6): Appalachian State, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama, Troy
To Sun Belt (6): Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, UTEP, UTSA

Thus we have:

CUSA
North: Appalachian State, Charlotte, Coastal Carolina, Marshall, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky
South: FAU, FIU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama, Troy, UAB
Protected crossover: Appalachian State/Georgia Southern

Sun Belt
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, Southern Miss
West: North Texas, Rice, Texas State, UTEP, UTSA
NFB: Little Rock, Texas-Arlington

I could get on board with that although I still think 14 teams is too big for a G5 conference. I think Little Rock and UTA should park their olympic sports elsewhere, and two Alabama schools should go to the new Sun Belt. The only problem is I like all the Alabama schools and would prefer to be in a conference with both Troy and UAB.

CUSA should expand to 24 than split into two 12 team leagues

Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee state
Marshall
ODU
Charlotte
Georgia State
UAB
South Alabama
S Miss
FIU
FAU
La tech

North Texas
Texas State
Rice
uTEP
UTSA
New Mexico State
Arkansas State
Missouri State
La L
La M
UALR
UAT


Troy, Georgia southern, App state and coastal to the A sun

If you're resorting by geography (due to travel costs) then you should also organize conferences in travel partner pairs. Being able to send two teams at once on an away trip saves a ton of money particularly at the low end.

(04-07-2020 10:10 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-07-2020 01:46 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  My apologies! The nesting of the quotes led to misatttibution. I should be calling out Cajun.

I completely understand the academic needs of a college study and the travel, my mom is a college coach so I’ve seen it all my life. But the bottom line is small geographic conference either kills themselves off or leave no room to grown, and dilute the talent pool. If people wanted these tight travel conferences there is a great place for that called FCS, and universities knew what they were strong themselves into before they made the jump.

I fail to see how this conference, which would cover 9 states yet still be tighter than the Sun Belt, would dilute the talent pool, be like FCS, or leave no room for growth:

FIU
FAU
Ga. State
Ga. Southern
Coastal
Troy (or UAB)

Charlotte
App State
ODU
Marshall
WKU
MTSU

Travel partners: FIU-FAU, Ga. Southern-Coastal, Troy (or UAB)-Ga. State, Charlotte-App State, ODU-Marshall (admittedly the worst pairing but they're both so isolated), and WKU-MTSU.

Annual crossovers in football:

App State-Ga. Southern
Charlotte-Ga. State
ODU-Coastal
MTSU-Troy (or UAB)
Marshall(who wants games in Florida)-FIU
WKU-FAU

Many people try to leave the Florida schools out of their scenarios. The problems with that are (1) a breakaway from C-USA will require 7+ schools, and they're likely to be needed, and (2) some of the C-USA schools like Marshall will not be interested in being in a league without a Florida presence.

This league would be in states deep in football talent: Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Virginia, and South Carolina. That is room for growth.

Most of these schools do not do their recruiting in Texas or Louisiana. And we all know that losing the "markets" of Texas is going to matter at this level of football.

Could FIU and Florida Atlantic make a go of football independence while sticking the rest of their sports in the Florida-heavy Atlantic Sun?

(04-07-2020 01:06 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Could FIU and Florida Atlantic make a go of football independence while sticking the rest of their sports in the Florida-heavy Atlantic Sun?

The problem with independence is giving up access to the NY6 bowls, which is perfectly feasible for both FAU and FIU.

(04-07-2020 01:06 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Could FIU and Florida Atlantic make a go of football independence while sticking the rest of their sports in the Florida-heavy Atlantic Sun?

It's getting close to the point where there are enough FBS indy teams to make it much more workable.

FIU and FAU would be giving up 7 annual CUSA football games (only 7 because they'd still play each other). They would replace those 7 games with (probably) UMass, UConn, and Liberty almost every year, BYU and NMSU in some years, sometimes Army if they can get onto Army's schedule, plus a few more. Being in south Florida, it should be easier for them to line up home games than it is for, say, NMSU. And if they need an extra road game or two, there are always SEC teams willing to write big checks.

(04-07-2020 01:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(04-07-2020 01:06 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Could FIU and Florida Atlantic make a go of football independence while sticking the rest of their sports in the Florida-heavy Atlantic Sun?

It's getting close to the point where there are enough FBS indy teams to make it much more workable.

FIU and FAU would be giving up 7 annual CUSA football games (only 7 because they'd still play each other). They would replace those 7 games with (probably) UMass, UConn, and Liberty almost every year, BYU and NMSU in some years, sometimes Army if they can get onto Army's schedule, plus a few more. Being in south Florida, it should be easier for them to line up home games than it is for, say, NMSU. And if they need an extra road game or two, there are always SEC teams willing to write big checks.

That's what got me thinking about it. Because of geography, Florida schools are always going to be on an island unless you're in the panhandle. But geography and fertile recruiting grounds also make FIU and Florida Atlantic more attractive for road trips.

The NY6 argument is legitimate, but if we see a move toward football independence for the outlier schools (FIU, Florida Atlantic, ODU, etc.) they may be able to carve some sort of proviso that lets them be in contention for a bowl (like they go by ranking instead of reserving it for conference champions).