(04-08-2020 06:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 12:55 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Who would the SEC have taken if Arkansas had not been available? You still have South Carolina available, but the SEC is motivated to get that 12th team to host a CCG.

- Assume the SWC has its own expansion plans to stabilize itself, so no SWC schools are available as alternatives. The Big Eight schools are also not available, so no OU/OSU.

- Also assume FSU is already locked into the ACC and no one from the ACC is leaving.

- Does the SEC approach Miami? Is Miami even interested? Miami is a very East Coast focused school and has very little culturally or institutionally similar to the SEC schools.

- West Virginia?

- Tulane?

- Virginia Tech? Not yet a major power under Beamer. In fact, they've more or less sucked for a long time right now and Beamer was just 17-26-1 through the 1990 season and had back to back 6 win seasons.

- Someone else? East Carolina was in the midst of a pretty good run at the time. Louisville wasn't yet much of a player.

Arkansas's Frank Broyles approached the SEC first. He felt that Texas and Texas A&M might be interested as well and there were talks since a breakup of the SWC seemed imminent. Texas had a silent partner that was interested (turned out to be Oklahoma) and of course Florida State was on the table as well. Interested, but tepid, was Clemson.

Texas and Texas A&M pulled out due to political reasons, so Oklahoma fell silent as well. It was Broyles that still wanted in. The SEC approached a network about the valuation of Florida State. That network then saw the potential for moving on Florida State to prevent the SEC from having the top 2 brands in a large state, Florida. Clemson had no interest once F.S.U. committed to the ACC in a offer delivered to them 1 day before the SEC was scheduled to see them and was slightly better than that of the SEC's but then that is possible when the network knows the numbers and the date of the offer.

A Clemson trustee alerted a buddy who was a South Carolina trustee as to the SEC's need of a companion for Arkansas. That's how South Carolina got the offer. There was another applicant at the time, West Virginia (which didn't offer the requisite sports for SEC consideration), and there was a party in talks with the SEC, Virginia Tech. Both were considered too much of a geographic outlier at the time. Morgantown and Blacksburg were really only accessible easily by Tennessee and all other SEC schools would have difficult travel to those venues.

So to address your premise about Arkansas not being interested, which is wholly contrary to the fact that they were the only one who wanted in no matter what, I'd say the SEC would have remained at 10 teams if Arkansas had not been interested. There was another school at the time who was in talks with the SEC and that was T.C.U.. But without Arkansas I don't think we would have seriously considered that. South Carolina got the nod because they were easier for travel. But no Arkansas, no expansion.

What many don't realize is that at that time the plan was to move to 16 and to take the best. The additions were a settle from grander plans, and the SEC actually had what was referred to as a defensive plan which would have considered moving to 20 if the Big 10 tried to expand down the Atlantic Seaboard. That plan would have attempted to reunite many of the teams of the old Southern Conference and was the only one of the initial plans that included Miami.

Interesting stuff. What about Kramer's desire to exploit the 12 team CCG rule? Was that what made Arkansas' overture compelling? I have been under the impression that the SEC sought to add two schools first, and Arkansas was willing to leave the Southwest Conference given its instability.

(04-08-2020 11:27 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 06:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 12:55 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Who would the SEC have taken if Arkansas had not been available? You still have South Carolina available, but the SEC is motivated to get that 12th team to host a CCG.

- Assume the SWC has its own expansion plans to stabilize itself, so no SWC schools are available as alternatives. The Big Eight schools are also not available, so no OU/OSU.

- Also assume FSU is already locked into the ACC and no one from the ACC is leaving.

- Does the SEC approach Miami? Is Miami even interested? Miami is a very East Coast focused school and has very little culturally or institutionally similar to the SEC schools.

- West Virginia?

- Tulane?

- Virginia Tech? Not yet a major power under Beamer. In fact, they've more or less sucked for a long time right now and Beamer was just 17-26-1 through the 1990 season and had back to back 6 win seasons.

- Someone else? East Carolina was in the midst of a pretty good run at the time. Louisville wasn't yet much of a player.

Arkansas's Frank Broyles approached the SEC first. He felt that Texas and Texas A&M might be interested as well and there were talks since a breakup of the SWC seemed imminent. Texas had a silent partner that was interested (turned out to be Oklahoma) and of course Florida State was on the table as well. Interested, but tepid, was Clemson.

Texas and Texas A&M pulled out due to political reasons, so Oklahoma fell silent as well. It was Broyles that still wanted in. The SEC approached a network about the valuation of Florida State. That network then saw the potential for moving on Florida State to prevent the SEC from having the top 2 brands in a large state, Florida. Clemson had no interest once F.S.U. committed to the ACC in a offer delivered to them 1 day before the SEC was scheduled to see them and was slightly better than that of the SEC's but then that is possible when the network knows the numbers and the date of the offer.

A Clemson trustee alerted a buddy who was a South Carolina trustee as to the SEC's need of a companion for Arkansas. That's how South Carolina got the offer. There was another applicant at the time, West Virginia (which didn't offer the requisite sports for SEC consideration), and there was a party in talks with the SEC, Virginia Tech. Both were considered too much of a geographic outlier at the time. Morgantown and Blacksburg were really only accessible easily by Tennessee and all other SEC schools would have difficult travel to those venues.

So to address your premise about Arkansas not being interested, which is wholly contrary to the fact that they were the only one who wanted in no matter what, I'd say the SEC would have remained at 10 teams if Arkansas had not been interested. There was another school at the time who was in talks with the SEC and that was T.C.U.. But without Arkansas I don't think we would have seriously considered that. South Carolina got the nod because they were easier for travel. But no Arkansas, no expansion.

What many don't realize is that at that time the plan was to move to 16 and to take the best. The additions were a settle from grander plans, and the SEC actually had what was referred to as a defensive plan which would have considered moving to 20 if the Big 10 tried to expand down the Atlantic Seaboard. That plan would have attempted to reunite many of the teams of the old Southern Conference and was the only one of the initial plans that included Miami.

Interesting stuff. What about Kramer's desire to exploit the 12 team CCG rule? Was that what made Arkansas' overture compelling? I have been under the impression that the SEC sought to add two schools first, and Arkansas was willing to leave the Southwest Conference given its instability.

It was considered back then that the WAC's 4 team half division rotation might work to preserve rivalries within the SEC. A move to 16 with the right schools would have been the grand slam. Arkansas and South Carolina at least met the requirement for having 2 divisions and utilizing that little known rule to create what turned out to be a bonanza. But, that bonanza might have worked with less internal angst if we had been able to expand to 16. That would have left plenty of room with 7 mandated games annually to schedule a rivalry that missed your rotation on a given year or two.

Like with all things, you celebrate and talk about what you did, not what you failed to do. Roy Kramer had a vision and even at its least it was dynamic and changed the game.

(04-08-2020 09:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  Culture aside, SEC officials visited Miami’s campus after the FSU snub. Miami was non-committal, whereas SC laid out the garnet carpet.

Visiting and offering are two entirely different matters. A visit is an investigation into interest. An offer is a response to it that requires formal votes. No vote was ever held on Miami. And for the record we visited many schools at that time and were even courteous enough to send WVU a prospectus on what they would need to do to be considered.

The SEC's procedures are very well thought out to avoid embarrassment for any school applying. We don't formerly reject anyone's application. If we send a school an application that means we've already agreed the vote on them would be favorable. If a school has to request an application it doesn't mean anything. No vote is held without an application. Then there are 2 votes. The first informal vote is a voice vote and no record is made. It is where true differences of opinion over a candidate are expressed. A school receiving 3/4ths approval will be made an offer which will come after the formal vote which is required to be unanimous, although abstentions are permitted. Then and only then is an offer made. No offer was ever made to Miami because no application was made and no vote was ever held formal or informal. The visit was an inquiry of interest and nothing more.

What some local beat writer who is in need of a story publishes is seldom accurate in these matters because there is too much that is confidential which is exchanged even in an inquiry. Oklahoma and Boren didn't receive an offer. I'm fairly certain they were mailed an application without requesting it which means we would have accepted them. But when Boren insisted on Oklahoma State the issue was dead. And Oklahoma got a lot deeper into the conversation than Miami.

But schools spin this kind of stuff to look more important and they let the beat writers do it for them.

You really can't believe everything you read. The SEC discloses nothing on these matters. It is always the school that leaks whatever which is intended for fans, boosters, or to provide cover for the A.D. or President's interest or lack thereof.

I never said there was a vote on Miami.

From 1990:

St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) - October 22, 1990
SEC LEADERS CONCEDE THEY LOST THE MAKINGS OF A `SUPERCONFERENCE'
Something went wrong on the way to the super Southeastern Conference. When the league presidents voted unanimously in May to explore expansion - basically an order to Commissioner Roy Kramer to go grab the best schools before anyone else scooped them up - the headlines proclaimed the possibility of an SEC-Florida-State-Miami link.In smaller print, South Carolina and Arkansas were mentioned, along with Texas and Texas A&M. Much was made of a proposed 14- to 16-team...

From your own backyard:

The Advocate (Baton Rouge, La.) - September 27, 1990
Miami rules out SEC, Metro
"For the second time in two weeks, a major Florida university has spurned the Southeastern Conference, this time Miami narrowing its choices to the Big East or Atlantic Coast Conference.Miami announced Wednesday that it has ruled out any possible association with the SEC or Metro Conference. Two weeks ago, Florida State turned down the SEC to become the ninth member of the ACC.Miami president Edward Foote said that his school draws heavily from the East Coast and District of..."

Sun-Sentinel - September 19, 1990
SEC COMMISSIONER VISITS UM; BIG EAST NEAR DECISION
CORAL GABLES -- The University of Miami grew seriously closer Tuesday to a possible move to the Big East or Southeastern conferences.While UM's highest-ranking officials met for 90 minutes on campus with the SEC commissioner, the Big East moved still closer to a decision to expand and invite Miami.''A decision on whether to expand is imminent,'' Big East Commissioner Mike Tranghese said. ''We haven't made a final decision, but the process is moving rapidly now.''...

The fact of the matter is Miami would have brought a HUGE TV contract. I don't think there was enough interest from the Miami side, they really wanted to join the ACC or Big East, and I personally think the ACC made the mistake of not going to 10 in 1990.

You talk about the SEC playing coy? The ACC didn't even announce intentions to expand, while the SEC announced it to the world and ultimately fell short. You talking about secret societies having backroom discussions with Clemson and Oklahoma just makes the SEC's 1990 Bay of Pigs Invasion look worse.

(04-09-2020 09:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  Culture aside, SEC officials visited Miami’s campus after the FSU snub. Miami was non-committal, whereas SC laid out the garnet carpet.

Visiting and offering are two entirely different matters. A visit is an investigation into interest. An offer is a response to it that requires formal votes. No vote was ever held on Miami. And for the record we visited many schools at that time and were even courteous enough to send WVU a prospectus on what they would need to do to be considered.

The SEC's procedures are very well thought out to avoid embarrassment for any school applying. We don't formerly reject anyone's application. If we send a school an application that means we've already agreed the vote on them would be favorable. If a school has to request an application it doesn't mean anything. No vote is held without an application. Then there are 2 votes. The first informal vote is a voice vote and no record is made. It is where true differences of opinion over a candidate are expressed. A school receiving 3/4ths approval will be made an offer which will come after the formal vote which is required to be unanimous, although abstentions are permitted. Then and only then is an offer made. No offer was ever made to Miami because no application was made and no vote was ever held formal or informal. The visit was an inquiry of interest and nothing more.

What some local beat writer who is in need of a story publishes is seldom accurate in these matters because there is too much that is confidential which is exchanged even in an inquiry. Oklahoma and Boren didn't receive an offer. I'm fairly certain they were mailed an application without requesting it which means we would have accepted them. But when Boren insisted on Oklahoma State the issue was dead. And Oklahoma got a lot deeper into the conversation than Miami.

But schools spin this kind of stuff to look more important and they let the beat writers do it for them.

You really can't believe everything you read. The SEC discloses nothing on these matters. It is always the school that leaks whatever which is intended for fans, boosters, or to provide cover for the A.D. or President's interest or lack thereof.

I never said there was a vote on Miami.

From 1990:

St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) - October 22, 1990
SEC LEADERS CONCEDE THEY LOST THE MAKINGS OF A `SUPERCONFERENCE'
Something went wrong on the way to the super Southeastern Conference. When the league presidents voted unanimously in May to explore expansion - basically an order to Commissioner Roy Kramer to go grab the best schools before anyone else scooped them up - the headlines proclaimed the possibility of an SEC-Florida-State-Miami link.In smaller print, South Carolina and Arkansas were mentioned, along with Texas and Texas A&M. Much was made of a proposed 14- to 16-team...

From your own backyard:

The Advocate (Baton Rouge, La.) - September 27, 1990
Miami rules out SEC, Metro
"For the second time in two weeks, a major Florida university has spurned the Southeastern Conference, this time Miami narrowing its choices to the Big East or Atlantic Coast Conference.Miami announced Wednesday that it has ruled out any possible association with the SEC or Metro Conference. Two weeks ago, Florida State turned down the SEC to become the ninth member of the ACC.Miami president Edward Foote said that his school draws heavily from the East Coast and District of..."

Sun-Sentinel - September 19, 1990
SEC COMMISSIONER VISITS UM; BIG EAST NEAR DECISION
CORAL GABLES -- The University of Miami grew seriously closer Tuesday to a possible move to the Big East or Southeastern conferences.While UM's highest-ranking officials met for 90 minutes on campus with the SEC commissioner, the Big East moved still closer to a decision to expand and invite Miami.''A decision on whether to expand is imminent,'' Big East Commissioner Mike Tranghese said. ''We haven't made a final decision, but the process is moving rapidly now.''...

The fact of the matter is Miami would have brought a HUGE TV contract. I don't think there was enough interest from the Miami side, they really wanted to join the ACC or Big East, and I personally think the ACC made the mistake of not going to 10 in 1990.

You talk about the SEC playing coy? The ACC didn't even announce intentions to expand, while the SEC announced it to the world and ultimately fell short. You talking about secret societies having backroom discussions with Clemson and Oklahoma just makes the SEC's 1990 Bay of Pigs Invasion look worse.

Again, talks are not an invitation. How the press plays something has nothing to do with reality. I know who was discussed originally. And I'm sure if asked Kramer would have said he talked with Miami. Florida State pursuits were no secret, but neither were Bowden's 3 attempts to join the SEC in the 80's. And all of it was generated by beat writers. The talks with Texas started in '87. Most decisions were made in '90 and Miami wasn't in the original 6 discussed. Kaplony can fill you in on Clemson with regard to the '92 expansion. Clemson's interest in 2010 was pretty well covered by the ESPN crawler.

What I'm telling you is that who the presidents consider and vote on and who is talked to are two different and distinct matters with votes being the only relevant matter. I don't know about you but I talked with a lot of girls, asked a good many out, was accepted by most, certainly not all, but I only married one. And that one was the only one I ever asked to marry me.

Whether it is the commissioner or a search committee many schools were talked with during the 1987-1990 search for '92 expansion. Some of those were called for dates, more than a few applied, and of the first 6 called only 1 initially accepted, and of others which expressed their own interest South Carolina was taken. Miami wasn't among the first six and wasn't extended an application. And I've often said we had grander plans and whiffed on all but Arkansas, and eventually landed A&M while picking up South Carolina instead of Clemson. I'm not surprised the SEC admitted to missing out on a grander 16 member SEC but if asked by the press who was involved they would only admit to those which had been discussed openly.

But I leave it to you as to how all of that worked out. In 1992 the SEC trailed the ACC in revenue by a couple of million. The SEC will be doubling up the ACC in revenue by 2024 and in 2011 Florida State was reconsidering, as was Clemson, and that is why you had to slap on a GOR after Maryland left for the Big 10. And as for newspapers in backyards, it depends on what main company they were a part of. A story from a Gannett paper in Florida might easily shows up in one in Louisiana, or anywhere in the U.S. And if one beat writer has some juicy offseason news others piggy back on the feeding frenzy. Nothing new there either.

So in short, I've never denied we had bigger plans that we failed to complete and that Arkansas and South Carolina were celebrated because they provided the CCG. I've never said we didn't discuss potentialities with a variety of schools, or that Florida State didn't turn down an invitation. All I've said is that Miami never applied and was never voted on. And the SEC does play things close to the vest, but if asked about a flight checker, or a leak from a school they've spoken to they won't deny it.

In 2010 we admitted that one of our planes flew to West Virginia. What we didn't acknowledge is speaking to the University of West Virginia, because we didn't. We met with another ACC school at the Greenbriar.