This make W&M great again mindset is as flawed as the other version of it in the political sphere. The premise of things being so much better at an earlier time isn't rooted in reality. Nostalgia is simply human nature. There were probably just as many issues and problems then as there are now, just different. Just because us old farts don't get it or have issue with changes doesn't mean it is the wrong move. If there was a tribe talk message board in the 70's, I guarentee it would be populated with posts from alumni both old and young complaining about how bad things are and how much better it was in their day.

That and this are just my opinion.

(01-16-2022 01:17 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  This make W&M great again mindset is as flawed as the other version of it in the political sphere. The premise of things being so much better at an earlier time isn't rooted in reality. Nostalgia is simply human nature. There were probably just as many issues and problems then as there are now, just different. Just because us old farts don't get it or have issue with changes doesn't mean it is the wrong move. If there was a tribe talk message board in the 70's, I guarentee it would be populated with posts from alumni both old and young complaining about how bad things are and how much better it was in their day.

That and this are just my opinion.

I agree with your post in general, but I will say......not every change....not every new thing.....is always better than everything in the past. I feel that humanity is fast approaching a time and place where "future" and "better" don't necessarily go hand in hand.

(01-16-2022 12:58 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Can't disagree with much in this post if anything. I'll add that we got very comfortable with being a geeky liberal arts school (like that was cool). The reality is that most students nowadays aren't looking for that any more. I credit Rowe, Pulley, and others with moving us forwad recently to more modern think related to digitization, technology, etc. Things have changed a lot in the last 50 years with academia, work/jobs, athletics, etc. We've not changed that much.

Is there evidence that "most students nowadays aren't looking for that any more"? I know nj alum wouldn't go to modern W&M, but it sure seems like the focus is on expanding capacity for more students. In my mind that would indicate we're turning away people we'd like to accept, hopefully not just for their tuition.

w/r/t "we've not changed that much"... I'd disagree there also. I'm not sure I'd get in now, or whether I'd be able to keep up if I did. There was a Facebook thread where one of my classmates got a W&M advertisement for their child and didn't recognize many of the buildings. Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous, and while the general layout is the same, a lot of buildings have been added/renovated/replaced in just the past 20 years.

(01-16-2022 12:55 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 12:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  People here are aware that the 1970s are 50 years ago right? Appy State was around 10 years old when the events being discussed occurred. At one point in our history, our athletic peers were simply other Virginia universities that existed.

The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

50 years ago, yes, but this proves the point that mistakes made at crucial pivot points can still be costing and haunting an entity many years and generations later.

Also, there may have been only two stories a week in the newspaper back then but at least W&M was being covered by every major state paper. Now we can't even get coverage in the Daily Press !!!

Sure, but the Daily Press isn't relevant anymore. I'd argue that there aren't any major state papers, either. There are many regional papers, unless those papers have gone under. But the only reason people here know about the Richmond Times-Dispatch is because they either live in Richmond or used to read it when they delivered it outside of Richmond. Maybe they still do deliver state-wide... I can't tell you the last time I saw a physical copy of RTD though. When I went to W&M, you could have the early edition delivered to your dorm room. Now I would be surprised if students could get the Daily Press delivered, or if there's even a market for that.

Whether W&M is getting coverage in a newspaper is more a representation of the newspaper business than it is anything w/r/t W&M.

(01-16-2022 03:07 PM)mainejeff Wrote:  Not every change....not every new thing.....is always better than everything in the past. I feel that humanity is fast approaching a time and place where "future" and "better" don't necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't disagree with you. It's certainly debatable whether this possible future is better. I don't get or like many of the paths the university has gone down. It doesn't mean that it was the wrong decision for the school to make at the time. Maybe it was.
I don't think there is much debate that this is the direction much of the modern world is heading. I also feel like some want the university to take a stand and move against the grain. Doing so would make the MWMGA crowd happy, but would possibly make for a poor business decision by the university.

(01-16-2022 03:13 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 12:58 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Can't disagree with much in this post if anything. I'll add that we got very comfortable with being a geeky liberal arts school (like that was cool). The reality is that most students nowadays aren't looking for that any more. I credit Rowe, Pulley, and others with moving us forwad recently to more modern think related to digitization, technology, etc. Things have changed a lot in the last 50 years with academia, work/jobs, athletics, etc. We've not changed that much.

Is there evidence that "most students nowadays aren't looking for that any more"? I know nj alum wouldn't go to modern W&M, but it sure seems like the focus is on expanding capacity for more students. In my mind that would indicate we're turning away people we'd like to accept, hopefully not just for their tuition.

w/r/t "we've not changed that much"... I'd disagree there also. I'm not sure I'd get in now, or whether I'd be able to keep up if I did. There was a Facebook thread where one of my classmates got a W&M advertisement for their child and didn't recognize many of the buildings. Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous, and while the general layout is the same, a lot of buildings have been added/renovated/replaced in just the past 20 years.

Here is a good article talking about liberal arts degrees and their decline. There are a lot of other studies out there. Kids are a lot more interested in technology, engineering, and analytics degrees which are all hot job markets.

https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points...tive-year/

I'm not talking about buildings when I'm talking about changes at W&M. I'm talking about how we need to understand our college and it's position in the market. I think Rowe is moving in the right direction. I hope she continues on that trajectory.

(01-16-2022 01:17 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  This make W&M great again mindset is as flawed as the other version of it in the political sphere. The premise of things being so much better at an earlier time isn't rooted in reality. Nostalgia is simply human nature. There were probably just as many issues and problems then as there are now, just different. Just because us old farts don't get it or have issue with changes doesn't mean it is the wrong move. If there was a tribe talk message board in the 70's, I guarentee it would be populated with posts from alumni both old and young complaining about how bad things are and how much better it was in their day.

That and this are just my opinion.

No need to politicize this with flawed analogies.

My post wasn’t to revert to an earlier time, just a comment. The 70s and 80s really, W&M was already well past big time football. Our world then athletically was Richmond, Navy, ECU, Rutgers, Temple, VMI, Villanova and Delaware with occasional high interest games with Tech and UVA. We still have about half of those in our current orbit.

On throwing up fwiw, I would said same if it included ODU, Georgia State, Troy State and Florida International.

(01-16-2022 03:13 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  ...Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous...

What makes you think so? When I was in high school getting into W&M was very hard and was also a big deal in the HS —— not so much now. Both of my kids graduated from W&M and seemed to get better grades with less effort than I experienced in the ‘70s. Lastly, I recall the Flat Hat reporting back then that W&M was rated as the 2nd hardest (behind Brown) in the country for academic rigor.

(01-16-2022 04:22 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 03:13 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  ...Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous...

What makes you think so? When I was in high school getting into W&M was very hard and was also a big deal in the HS —— not so much now. Both of my kids graduated from W&M and seemed to get better grades with less effort than I experienced in the ‘70s. Lastly, I recall the Flat Hat reporting back then that W&M was rated as the 2nd hardest (behind Brown) in the country for academic rigor.

I think it’s probably harder now. Maybe your kids are just smarter than you were? Or were better prepared upon entry?

(01-16-2022 04:22 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 03:13 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  ...Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous...

What makes you think so? When I was in high school getting into W&M was very hard and was also a big deal in the HS —— not so much now. Both of my kids graduated from W&M and seemed to get better grades with less effort than I experienced in the ‘70s. Lastly, I recall the Flat Hat reporting back then that W&M was rated as the 2nd hardest (behind Brown) in the country for academic rigor.

Based on what my college resume was compared to current students I've met. I was in about 4-5 years before there was a flood of applicants and W&M got a lot more selective.

(01-16-2022 04:22 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 03:13 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  ...Academically W&M is significantly more rigorous...

What makes you think so? When I was in high school getting into W&M was very hard and was also a big deal in the HS —— not so much now. Both of my kids graduated from W&M and seemed to get better grades with less effort than I experienced in the ‘70s. Lastly, I recall the Flat Hat reporting back then that W&M was rated as the 2nd hardest (behind Brown) in the country for academic rigor.

Sounds like you raised your kids very well. In my personal experience, college kids today work harder, endure severe stress, are more driven to excel and party far, far less (if at all) than we did in the early 80's.

RTD today:

“The CAA explored the possibility of adding schools that are now Southern Conference members, but they apparently elected to stay in the SoCon. Howard was also a potential CAA addition, but is expected to stay in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference.”

W&M was great, is great, and will always be great. W&M adapted and will adapt. You loved, love, and will always love W&M. Can we stop with the overly dramatic rants?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(01-17-2022 12:01 AM)Clueless Economist Wrote:  RTD today:

“The CAA explored the possibility of adding schools that are now Southern Conference members, but they apparently elected to stay in the SoCon. Howard was also a potential CAA addition, but is expected to stay in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference.”

The same article said that the targets are Hampton, Monmouth, and Stony Brook, bringing football to 13, and hoops to 12.

All the reporting seems to be coalescing around those three schools. If correct, that brings to seven the number of schools that will play both CAA football and CAA hoops. That is a big key for me as I think an ultimate goal has to be an at least eight team conference that has schools that play both football and hoops … it levels the playing field for everyone.

That leaves one slot for football, and two slots for hoops. North? South? A Patriot school? Another Big South school?

On an economic basis, and an athletics competitive basis, this probably works out well for W&M. It also stabilizes the leagues to a great extent.

Travel partners will be interesting as logic says Hofstra / SB and W&M / Hampton, but that would also mean Elon/Towson, and Monmouth / Northeastern … so that may not happen.

Are UNCW/Charleston/Elon okay with this? Charleston and Elon might be for potential student body reasons.

Monmouth / Stony Brook adds give the New York / New Jersey region three CAA schools. The CAA is transforming from a Virginia league to a New York / New Jersey / Philadelphia league, especially if Fairfield is still in the mix.

(01-16-2022 03:49 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 03:07 PM)mainejeff Wrote:  Not every change....not every new thing.....is always better than everything in the past. I feel that humanity is fast approaching a time and place where "future" and "better" don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Doing so would make the MWMGA crowd happy, but would possibly make for a poor business decision by the university.

Probably. I think many though just think the “Build back Better” approach the last couple years has been an utter catastrophe, much like the political one, so only natural you wish to return to something greater.

(01-17-2022 08:46 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  Probably. I think many though just think the “Build back Better” approach the last couple years has been an utter catastrophe, much like the political one, so only natural you wish to return to something greater.

I don't disagree with that either. I'm so ready for a fresh slate away from the tired politics of at least the last 6 years. Unfortunately, I don't see enough willing or able to pivot to a position that represents what this country is... A fairly divided 50/50 country that works best being moderate and not bending to the fantasies of either extreme side.
I apologize for side tracking this thread with political BS. I'm done and will not continue it here.

Ok, so with Monmouth, Stony Brook and Hampton apparently in the works, I would like to see Fairfield and VMI finish this up. I think Fairfield is set. I’m not convinced VMI is not a possibility, particularly if there is a north and south division in the nee CAA.

That would give us 14 each and 8 core (all sports including football).

I think Stony Brook as a new member brings the most. I know they have decent baseball and assume lacrosse. They are actually a better fit in the CAA than AE so think they were there for the asking. I like Monmouth for the same reasons I liked Elon - an up and coming university in a great location for the CAA. You could say same for Hampton.

(01-17-2022 07:59 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(01-17-2022 12:01 AM)Clueless Economist Wrote:  RTD today:

“The CAA explored the possibility of adding schools that are now Southern Conference members, but they apparently elected to stay in the SoCon. Howard was also a potential CAA addition, but is expected to stay in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference.”

The same article said that the targets are Hampton, Monmouth, and Stony Brook, bringing football to 13, and hoops to 12.

All the reporting seems to be coalescing around those three schools. If correct, that brings to seven the number of schools that will play both CAA football and CAA hoops. That is a big key for me as I think an ultimate goal has to be an at least eight team conference that has schools that play both football and hoops … it levels the playing field for everyone.

That leaves one slot for football, and two slots for hoops. North? South? A Patriot school? Another Big South school?

On an economic basis, and an athletics competitive basis, this probably works out well for W&M. It also stabilizes the leagues to a great extent.

Travel partners will be interesting as logic says Hofstra / SB and W&M / Hampton, but that would also mean Elon/Towson, and Monmouth / Northeastern … so that may not happen.

Are UNCW/Charleston/Elon okay with this? Charleston and Elon might be for potential student body reasons.

Monmouth / Stony Brook adds give the New York / New Jersey region three CAA schools. The CAA is transforming from a Virginia league to a New York / New Jersey / Philadelphia league, especially if Fairfield is still in the mix.

Concur with how above is framed. Competitive landscape for Tribe football and men's basketball levels off some with JMU departure. Potential new members all are funding FCS football which is helpful. Would note that Stony Brook has a large enrollment, reasonably big budget to fund 16 sports, and could be poised for takeoff.

If UNCW and CoC remain in the league, the Tribe path to a basketball auto-bid must now go through 11 programs vs 9.

Tribe athletics' love affair with I-95 escapes me, but presumably there are some unarticulated metrics underpinning Tribe sports competitions gravitating in a northerly direction.

As mentioned, UNCW and CoC now appear to be true CAA outliers. Question is whether they are comfortable remaining in the league as newly constituted? Or perhaps CAA still has designs on Winthrop, Campbell, and/or High Point to provide the southern schools some travel relief and closer rivals.

I don't think all of the book is written yet. Dominos sometimes lead to other dominos falling.

I think there will be pretty constant FCS shuffling for the next few years.

The MEAC, Big South, ASun, WAC, OVC, and Southland are all hovering right around the bare minimum numbers of schools required. There will either need to be a big influx of D2 call ups, or at least one of those conferences will fold. I also think that's part of the reason the CAA wants 14, it keeps them in a stable position even if schools get poached or move up to the FBS.

In regards to Howard, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't want to be the ones to kill the MEAC. If the Big South poaches NC Central or someone, and the MEAC is on life support, I bet they would join in a heartbeat.