(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

(01-10-2023 05:19 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:30 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Individual sport NCAA should adopt to honor Uncle Dazzy: juggling

My sources in Nashville tell me that Dazzle's female juggling is top notch.

(Sadly, that is no longer the case.)

(01-10-2023 05:07 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  College Football and College Basketball are major nationally.

College Baseball exists nationally and is major regionally.

College Hockey doesn't exist nationally but is major regionally.

College Soccer exists nationally but hasn't translated its professional/international popularity anywhere yet.

Perfectly outlined.

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

It’s only been above 50k once. Average is around 30/35k attendance. Spending MDW in Hartford Conn is a hard pass. I say this as someone who’s attended 15 years straight pre Covid. Would be nice if they finally move it off MDW and hold it at navy/Annapolis in beginning of June.

Fewer have added, but there’s also been fewer subtractions then other sports…

(01-11-2023 12:45 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  Hockey, not a major sport. When only 60 schools (many not D1) play the sport, it is not a major sport.

Sure. However, it's interesting that the Sioux Falls Stampede junior hockey team, which plays in a feeder league to NCAA hockey, outdraws SDSU, USD, and Augi's avg basketball attendance, combined. Same could be said for most of the "D2" hockey schools in MN. Why does the Sioux Falls junior hockey team out draw the Sioux Falls NBA G-League team as well?

USD and SDSU could have had successful hockey programs. The reason more schools don't have hockey programs has more to do with title 9 (18 scholarships in hockey) and protecting the basketball programs than anything else, imo.

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.
Any theories as to why?

Simple really. Once the event was moved to NFL stadiums more regularly in Baltimore, Boston and Philadelphia starting in 2003, the added facility rental costs (and NCAA greed!) pushed the ticket prices up to make the game more or less unaffordable to many of the families that used to support college lax. The 2023 prices average $160 each for the weekend all sessions (three games) tickets in Philadelphia. You can get 30K fans at those prices per day and perhaps a bit more if the big brand names are in it, but probably not 50k. And if its smaller schools with lesser followings, or in a harder place to get to (like last year's U Conn's Rentschler Field near Harftord), it would hard to top 30K for a single day.

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

As far as schools not adding the sport, I would point to the fact that Division I schools with football rarely add men's sports these days. Football and its budget swallow athletic departments whole.

(01-12-2023 09:56 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

As far as schools not adding the sport, I would point to the fact that Division I schools with football rarely add men's sports these days. Football and its budget swallow athletic departments whole.

Yes ... for instance, the MAC programs that have added Lax, partly in response to the growth in youth Lacrosse in the MAC footprint, especially the eastern part -- Central Michigan (2016), Kent State (2018), Akron (2019) -- added women's lax, where it eases Title IX issues rather than creating them.

(01-12-2023 10:09 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-12-2023 09:56 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

As far as schools not adding the sport, I would point to the fact that Division I schools with football rarely add men's sports these days. Football and its budget swallow athletic departments whole.

Yes ... for instance, the MAC programs that have added Lax, partly in response to the growth in youth Lacrosse in the MAC footprint, especially the eastern part -- Central Michigan (2016), Kent State (2018), Akron (2019) -- added women's lax, where it eases Title IX issues rather than creating them.

I did a whole thread on FBS schools adding men's team sports: https://csnbbs.com/thread-959666.html

Since the 1992 split there have six, and only six, team sports added by a school that was FBS at the time. Two of them were Michigan wanting to rub elbows with other prestigious academic institutions, one was Oregon swapping wrestling for baseball, and the other three involved $10+ million donations.

The fact that nobody plays them negates calling hockey and soccer "major sports". It's football, basketball, baseball and I would put track and golf ahead of hockey and soccer.

(01-12-2023 10:33 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(01-12-2023 10:09 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-12-2023 09:56 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

As far as schools not adding the sport, I would point to the fact that Division I schools with football rarely add men's sports these days. Football and its budget swallow athletic departments whole.

Yes ... for instance, the MAC programs that have added Lax, partly in response to the growth in youth Lacrosse in the MAC footprint, especially the eastern part -- Central Michigan (2016), Kent State (2018), Akron (2019) -- added women's lax, where it eases Title IX issues rather than creating them.

I did a whole thread on FBS schools adding men's team sports: https://csnbbs.com/thread-959666.html

Since the 1992 split there have six, and only six, team sports added by a school that was FBS at the time. Two of them were Michigan wanting to rub elbows with other prestigious academic institutions, one was Oregon swapping wrestling for baseball, and the other three involved $10+ million donations.

Yes - that thread is required reading for all of the proposals for FBS schools to add various men's team sports. The sad reality is that every instance that didn't involve simultaneously dropping another men's sport is not really repeatable or sustainable for other institutions. They all came down to either "We're Michigan!" or "We just got an 8-figure angel donation!".

(01-12-2023 12:30 PM)Crump1 Wrote:  The fact that nobody plays them negates calling hockey and soccer "major sports". It's football, basketball, baseball and I would put track and golf ahead of hockey and soccer.

Except too few care about collegiate baseball here in the Midwest!! Collegiately, nationally, it's football + men's basketball. That is it!

Question: what would the women’s major sports be? Do any of their sports deserve to be called major?

I’d argue they have one major sport & that’s Basketball. Example: I never hear about how Michigan, Michigan St, Notre Dame, Ohio St, etc. volleyball, women's soccer, softball, etc. are doing.

(01-12-2023 12:30 PM)Crump1 Wrote:  The fact that nobody plays them negates calling hockey and soccer "major sports". It's football, basketball, baseball and I would put track and golf ahead of hockey and soccer.

There's the two major team sports, football and basketball, and then there's the sports that can break even or better and generate appreciable support on their own in specific regions of the country, like baseball, hockey, and perhaps (depending on how big you insist on a "region of the country" being), Lax.

Soccer is a more or less major sport played at college, BUT ...

... American MLS is akin to a third tier European league, not only below the level of the Premier League, La Liga and Seria A, but also (IMV) below the level of the European leagues like the French Ligue 1, and below that is the USL Championship, and I'd guess that top level college soccer is roughly down at the third level of US professional soccer -- USL League 1, MLS Next Pro and NISA. ...

... so it's not a major college sport.

(01-10-2023 08:42 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:48 AM)unalions Wrote:  Can you really call hockey a major sport when only 40 D1 schools participate?

I'm not sure most people consider hockey a major college sport.

but on the other hand, it has a pulse. I would be suprised if the NCAA mens soccer finals get similar ratings to the College World Series and Frozen Four games.

The big difference is, you don't have 200-250 college hockey programs with near-zero interest bringing the average down.

Quote:I wish the SEC would raise their teams to the NCAA level and put their cash flow behind the programs. I can't imagine how the sport would flourish across the country instead of being a regional sport.

I can very much see the other side though--the SEC markets aren't good hockey markets. If you want to reallocate some SEC money, especially in the age of NIL, pump up SEC baseball to make it more competitive with the minor league draft. I know if I were a 17 year old jock, I'd rather spend 3 years in Tuscaloosa or Lexington or Starksville on a campus full of college girls than 3 years in Hickory or Asheville or Wilmington as a minor league ballplayer.

Mizzou has STL to lean on which makes them not having one all the more baffling. It’s one sport they could actually win in.

(01-11-2023 12:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-11-2023 09:33 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:32 PM)woollymammoth41 Wrote:  The # of lacrosse will be growing if some schools move up + net new additions

Men's lacrosse has stalled--fewer new schools adding the sport, declining attendance. The Final Fours used to draw crowds approaching 50,000. Last year? 21,668.

Any theories as to why?

COVID-19

(01-10-2023 05:57 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 05:47 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 01:26 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:48 AM)unalions Wrote:  Can you really call hockey a major sport when only 40 D1 schools participate?

I wish the SEC would raise their teams to the NCAA level and put their cash flow behind the programs. I can't imagine how the sport would flourish across the country instead of being a regional sport.

Guess it depends on how you define it. Of the D1 schools that play college hockey, most have better attendance than their basketball programs and it's one of the few NCAA tournaments that actually generates a profit. I'd love to see Georgia add the sport, with their new arena that is being built. Would be interesting to see if they could replicate the fan support that ASU has so quickly built.

How do the number of men's hockey D1 schools compare to the number of Lax D1 schools?

73 LAX, 62 Hockey

it's definitely a New England/Mid Atlantic thing