the horror

(01-24-2023 01:01 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:57 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:55 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  The damn President IS the process. The President can have a classified paper in his hand and CHOOSE to show it to others in that room or on TV or anywhere else. It's not a crime and he doesn't need to go through a damn "process" to do just that. That is an absolute power the President has.

False. Yes, he can do that while in the room. Then he has to (or have his aids) file paperwork to state that it is now declassified and the paperwork has to be reviewed by the gov't agency that owns it. It is very straightforward. You don't just say its declassified and never tell anyone or any agency.

Let me repeat....the President is the process and given ASBULUTE power on when to classify and declassify. So he's not depended on someone that works for him signing off on it

Not what anyone is saying. He has the power, yes, BUT HE HAS TO ACTUALLY TELL SOMEONE!!! There are consequences for his actions that need to be considered...especially if the stuff he declassifies has ANY bearing on national security.

You're basically saying that Obama could come out now and say "those documents found at Joe's from my term...yeah...I declassified all of those" ... carry on.

(01-24-2023 12:40 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Imagine that.

Yet, we've only had a single person to be raided. (And that person was someone who absolutely had legal authority to have these documents in his possession.)

(01-24-2023 12:34 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Just goes to show lots of the political elite have classified docs where they shouldn't. Not saying it's not a big deal, but it does prove the Trump inquisition was pure political partisanship, and nothing more.

Trump had documents NARA knew were missing from their custody and requested back...with incomplete success and sporadic cooperation from Trump and his staff. Pence & Biden found things that NARA didn't know they were missing and hadn't asked for, and appear to be turning them over immediately and cooperating fully. Therein lies entirely the reason that we have only one "raid" between the three men.

Total bullcrap. The Feds were told they could take any documents they wanted (and they took some) in June. The idea there was no cooperation is totally made up left wing fan fiction. There were area disagreements---but thats not evidence of non-cooperation---thats simply a debate as to certain documents which the president considered personal. Again---any presidents home would likely yield government documents. Its that simple. The DOJ knew that---which was why it was a perfect snare to "get Trump". The problem is criminalizing this will work to undermine virtually any politician with access to documents.....and now everyone is finally figuring that out.

(01-24-2023 01:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:40 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Imagine that.

Yet, we've only had a single person to be raided. (And that person was someone who absolutely had legal authority to have these documents in his possession.)

(01-24-2023 12:34 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Just goes to show lots of the political elite have classified docs where they shouldn't. Not saying it's not a big deal, but it does prove the Trump inquisition was pure political partisanship, and nothing more.

Trump had documents NARA knew were missing from their custody and requested back...with incomplete success and sporadic cooperation from Trump and his staff. Pence & Biden found things that NARA didn't know they were missing and hadn't asked for, and appear to be turning them over immediately and cooperating fully. Therein lies entirely the reason that we have only one "raid" between the three men.

Total bullcrap. The Feds were told they could take any documents they wanted (and they took some) in June. The idea there was no cooperation is totally made up left wing fan fiction.

Don't think anyone is implying there was NO cooperation. But if you think there was TOTAL cooperation...well...you're beyond help.

I'm sure that smoke coming from behind Bill Clinton's house is just him burning leaves.

(01-24-2023 01:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:40 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Imagine that.

Yet, we've only had a single person to be raided. (And that person was someone who absolutely had legal authority to have these documents in his possession.)

(01-24-2023 12:34 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Just goes to show lots of the political elite have classified docs where they shouldn't. Not saying it's not a big deal, but it does prove the Trump inquisition was pure political partisanship, and nothing more.

Trump had documents NARA knew were missing from their custody and requested back...with incomplete success and sporadic cooperation from Trump and his staff. Pence & Biden found things that NARA didn't know they were missing and hadn't asked for, and appear to be turning them over immediately and cooperating fully. Therein lies entirely the reason that we have only one "raid" between the three men.

Total bullcrap. The Feds were told they could take any documents they wanted (and they took some) in June. The idea there was no cooperation is totally made up left wing fan fiction. There were area disagreements---but thats not evidence of non-cooperation---thats simply a debate as to certain documents which the president considered personal. Again---any presidents home would likely yield government documents. Its that simple. The DOJ knew that---which was why it was a perfect snare to "get Trump". The problem is criminalizing this will work to undermine virtually any politician with access to documents.....and now everyone is finally figuring that out.

I'm sure it became clear to Trump at some point well before the Gestapo busted into his home that it was nothing more than a witch hunt intended to bring him down. In his shoes, I'm quite certain I would have stopped any sort of cooperation at that point as well.

(01-24-2023 12:49 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:43 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Imagine that.

Yet, we've only had a single person to be raided. (And that person was someone who absolutely had legal authority to have these documents in his possession.)

Yet he didn't follow the process he needed to follow to declassify those documents. Why can't both sides just be honest here? Yes, Trump COULD HAVE declassified whatever he wanted to declassify but saying he did after the fact that he did not is kind of stupid. Biden and Trump are both guilty here. In Biden's case does appear to be a lot worse since some of this happened when he was VP and a Senator, 2 roles in which he couldn't have been declassifying information if he wanted to.

Pretty much. Unless there were some sort of actual proof Trump was trying to sell or trade secrets this entire thing is a big steamy pile of nothing.

Try telling that to the thousands of people who simply 'had' had documents and were either court martialed and/or criminally tried.

Start at Petraeus and explain that to me using your new found insight above.

Or the 60+ other people charged with 793 violations (unauthorized possession) in the last 10 years or so.

(01-24-2023 12:57 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:55 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  The damn President IS the process. The President can have a classified paper in his hand and CHOOSE to show it to others in that room or on TV or anywhere else. It's not a crime and he doesn't need to go through a damn "process" to do just that. That is an absolute power the President has.

False. Yes, he can do that while in the room. Then he has to (or have his aids) file paperwork to state that it is now declassified and the paperwork has to be reviewed by the gov't agency that owns it. It is very straightforward. You don't just say its declassified and never tell anyone or any agency.

Not just that, but even if he has the ability to Jedi / Vulcan mind meld declassify the stuff, there still needs to be evidence of that for a defense.

Jedi / Vulcan mind meld style doesnt leave much of that around. Oops.

Call em' in...

(01-24-2023 01:26 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:57 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:55 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  The damn President IS the process. The President can have a classified paper in his hand and CHOOSE to show it to others in that room or on TV or anywhere else. It's not a crime and he doesn't need to go through a damn "process" to do just that. That is an absolute power the President has.

False. Yes, he can do that while in the room. Then he has to (or have his aids) file paperwork to state that it is now declassified and the paperwork has to be reviewed by the gov't agency that owns it. It is very straightforward. You don't just say its declassified and never tell anyone or any agency.

Not just that, but even if he has the ability to Jedi / Vulcan mind meld declassify the stuff, there still needs to be evidence of that for a defense.

Jedi / Vulcan mind meld style doesnt leave much of that around. Oops.

So now you believe we must prove our innocents? I dont believe it works that why.....

the government needs to prove their case not the other way around. If the law says the President has that power he has the law on his side. Now it's becomes the feds responsibility to prove he didn't. If they can't prove that there is no crime to begin with

(01-24-2023 12:22 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:14 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Informs authorities.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vice-pr...diana-home

Unless, of course, Donald Trump had already declassified these with his brainwaves.

Doesn't matter since he is VP our MSM has already told us that any VP has the implied authority to declassify documents.

It was even verified on our local news so as to give SLOW JOE a pass.

Unfortunately the Senate days weren't covered

(01-24-2023 12:22 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:14 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Informs authorities.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vice-pr...diana-home

Unless, of course, Donald Trump had already declassified these with his brainwaves.

I have an idea if he had declassified them via brainwaves, I bet he'd REclassify them ASAP.

The POTUS can leave a Top Secret meeting with the Joint Chiefs regarding the plans for a new supersonic submarine, walk out the door into the hallway and give those plans to a reporter and there is not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

(01-24-2023 12:28 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  I found some at the grocery store yesterday

I just woke up from a nap, wiped off the drool, took a dump, and flushed .... and poof, _ _ it was all gone...

(01-24-2023 01:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:40 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Imagine that.

Yet, we've only had a single person to be raided. (And that person was someone who absolutely had legal authority to have these documents in his possession.)

(01-24-2023 12:34 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Just goes to show lots of the political elite have classified docs where they shouldn't. Not saying it's not a big deal, but it does prove the Trump inquisition was pure political partisanship, and nothing more.

Trump had documents NARA knew were missing from their custody and requested back...with incomplete success and sporadic cooperation from Trump and his staff. Pence & Biden found things that NARA didn't know they were missing and hadn't asked for, and appear to be turning them over immediately and cooperating fully. Therein lies entirely the reason that we have only one "raid" between the three men.

Total bullcrap. The Feds were told they could take any documents they wanted (and they took some) in June.

And when the same people were told that at MaL, they asked to view inside the boxes in the basement. And Trump refused that.

And you misstate the sequence of events.

Trump sonsistently told the feds and NARA that no more documents marked as classifeid existed. Then the subpoeana came down. Then more trump obstruction.

Finally Trump team says to the Feds -- we have some. The feds rolled down to get that small folder of them. Trump didnt kindly turn them over -- he turned them over only at the requirement of what the subpoena required him to do at that point.

Trump braggadociously told them 'we will help you in any way.'

At that meeting in MaL for the turnover, the feds then responded to his offer by asking to look inside the boxes. Which he abjectly refused.

Please get the details and timing correct.

Quote:The idea there was no cooperation is totally made up left wing fan fiction.

I call the above a severe lack of cooperation. When one makes a sworn statement at that time, and it turns out to be false -- one would call the level of cooperation very close to none.

What do *you* call making a false statement under oath about the matter?

Quote: There were area disagreements---but thats not evidence of non-cooperation---thats simply a debate as to certain documents which the president considered personal. Again---any presidents home would likely yield government documents. Its that simple.

Doesnt matter. They are government documents. Give them back. Its that simple.

When subpoenaed for them -- again, give them back. Its that simple.

Dont make a false statement under oath regarding them -- its that simple.

Quote:The DOJ knew that---which was why it was a perfect snare to "get Trump". The problem is criminalizing this will work to undermine virtually any politician with access to documents.....and now everyone is finally figuring that out.

Trump ensnared himself by refusing to give back documents he had no right to possess. refusing after requests, refusing after subpoena, and by submitting a flase statement under oath about it.

ANd somehow Trump is 'ensnared' after that active explict action? Seriously?

No one pointed a gun at Trumps head and said 'dont give back the "government's" documents' (mind you, you admitted the documents are the government's above in the bolded...)

No one pointed a gun at Trumps head and said 'blow off the subpoena for the "government's" documents'.

No one pointed a gun at Trumps head and said 'make a false statement under oath about your possession and control of the "government's" documents'.

So cut it with the 'ensnared' stuff, the 'poor Trump got sandbagged' load. Trump did Trump.

I now once again have to admire Trump for the "yeah I got 'em, whaddaya gonna do about it?" approach.

It sure is a heck of a lot more admirable than these idiots and their "heyyyyyy... how did these get here??? " act.

(01-24-2023 01:35 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 01:26 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:57 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:55 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  The damn President IS the process. The President can have a classified paper in his hand and CHOOSE to show it to others in that room or on TV or anywhere else. It's not a crime and he doesn't need to go through a damn "process" to do just that. That is an absolute power the President has.

False. Yes, he can do that while in the room. Then he has to (or have his aids) file paperwork to state that it is now declassified and the paperwork has to be reviewed by the gov't agency that owns it. It is very straightforward. You don't just say its declassified and never tell anyone or any agency.

Not just that, but even if he has the ability to Jedi / Vulcan mind meld declassify the stuff, there still needs to be evidence of that for a defense.

Jedi / Vulcan mind meld style doesnt leave much of that around. Oops.

So now you believe we must prove our innocents? I dont believe it works that why.....

the government needs to prove their case not the other way around. If the law says the President has that power he has the law on his side. Now it's becomes the feds responsibility to prove he didn't. If they can't prove that there is no crime to begin with

Third time for this lesson -- its like none of you bother to read.

First, the government makes a prima facie case. The 1th Circ. has already noted that the evidence in front of them shows the documents marked as classified are, for a prima facie showing, classified.

Second, at that point Trump has the burden of moving forward with a defense of 'they were not classified'. That is, he has to present evidence to refute.

Problem is there is no evidence.

So no, we *dont* have to prove innocence. In this case, Trump has to provide *some* evidence contra to the prima facie case.

(01-24-2023 01:49 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I now once again have to admire Trump for the "yeah I got 'em, whaddaya gonna do about it?" approach.

It sure is a heck of a lot more admirable than these idiots and their "heyyyyyy... how did these get here??? " act.

True. Both Biden and Pence wimped out by immediately notifying the appropriate authority and returned the government's property.

(01-24-2023 01:01 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Let me repeat....the President is the process and given ASBULUTE power on when to classify and declassify. So he's not depended on someone that works for him signing off on it

He has absolute power. Then has to follow the process. What don't you understand about that?

And I'll reiterate, throw him in prison, Biden in prison, Pence in prison, Hillary in prison, and any of their aids that didn't follow the law. That simple.

You continually say I'm anti-Trump on other threads, but I'm anti breaking the f'ing law. Very simple. If I did the same thing as them I'd be in prison.