(06-30-2023 01:41 PM)Pat125 Wrote:  

(06-29-2023 11:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Perhaps the most evil female coach in collegiate history.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...tions.html

If she isn’t the most evil female coach, I hate to see what the most evil coach did. She actually knew and did nothing?!?

Even if one is of the mind that - Oh, back in the good old non-PC days when barbaric hazing was acceptable and expected, people should get over it and allow degradation of humans to continue - how stupid could one be to let this happen today?

NJTerp

Lot's of crying in this thread about very mild, student-led hazing. And the article generically states that she "knew what was going on", not that she sanctioned it, approved of it, or coordinated it. I'm not saying she's without blame anyway, I'm just saying that she's hardly the most evil female coach in history.

I realize that we, and by "we" I mean mostly older guys like me, have a different perspective on women in sports than modern day coaches, and I think that it's important to look at something like this as we would if it had happened to men. If a men's college sports team did something like this, there'd be an investigation, a few people might get kicked out of school or at least kicked off the team, and the coach probably gets fired or reassigned. If there's a lot more to it beneath the surface and it's a minor sport, they might even stop sponsoring it. Certainly there would be no ridiculous assertions about how "evil" the coach was. When viewed through the lens of "how would a mens coach and/or program be treated in this situation", I think that the punishment fit the crime very well. The coach was very successful for nearly 30 years and didn't have a history of scandal, so she was allowed to quietly resign. Quite likely most, perhaps even all of the hazers are off the team or even off the campus. Problem solved. They'll bring in a panzy who will be afraid to offend anybody for any reason, and they can go 10-20 every year and get their butts kicked by Yale and the rest of the Ivies. Everybody wins.

(06-30-2023 02:56 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  Harvard loves to point out splinters in others' eyes but ignored the wooden beam in their own.

I think it was a frozen beam.

I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

(06-30-2023 03:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:54 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:45 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 02:14 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  ... then that little blurb hidden in the middle shows that it was actually student-led hazing.

That makes it acceptable because ...

The coach "owns" the ice during team activities. As "owner" they are also the "responsible party". It falls on the coach if the coach allowed it. The End.

The coach knew it was going on.

There was no benefit from that "workout."

Physical abuse of student-athletes. And 80% dropout rate of hockey players last year.

25% dropout rate for all Harvard D1 athletes versus 80% for women’s hockey. Athletes were complaining about the hazing rituals. Someone in senior management will also have to answer for this. It is interesting that a school that doesn’t even provide athletic scholarships is facing this.

The lure of Hockey at Harvard is that you get a degree from Harvard. Far more beneficial to most of the participants than D1 football for that 90%+ who never play in the NFL. And the coach was winning a lot of hockey games.

So, the above got me curious and I started looking at their record by year. Up to the 14-15 season, they were outstanding. Since then? They're averaging about 1.5 games over .500. Amazing how you can look the other way on hazing when the team is winning, yet when you stop winning so much the Admins look much more closely at things. Again, just like in a bunch of men's sports.

Here's a fun thought experiment: what's worse, the 9 accusations of sexual assualt and lots of street racing on Georgia's football team, or this hazing-friendly culture (led by students) at Harvard? I don't actually know, but I know that Kirby isn't getting in any trouble whatsoever over the problems on his team. And it would be interesting to see some people tie themselves into knots as they make a determination ahead of time, then try to justify their position.

(07-01-2023 12:30 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

You keep resorting to personal insults and I'll keep resorting to logic and reason.

(07-01-2023 12:41 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:30 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

You keep resorting to personal insults and I'll keep resorting to logic and reason.

I was kidding - that was not meant to be taken seriously. Just made me laugh you’ve been defending her so much.

i hate hockey
college women's hockey is the dumbest thing & waste of money

(07-01-2023 12:37 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 03:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:54 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:45 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 02:14 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  ... then that little blurb hidden in the middle shows that it was actually student-led hazing.

That makes it acceptable because ...

The coach "owns" the ice during team activities. As "owner" they are also the "responsible party". It falls on the coach if the coach allowed it. The End.

The coach knew it was going on.

There was no benefit from that "workout."

Physical abuse of student-athletes. And 80% dropout rate of hockey players last year.

25% dropout rate for all Harvard D1 athletes versus 80% for women’s hockey. Athletes were complaining about the hazing rituals. Someone in senior management will also have to answer for this. It is interesting that a school that doesn’t even provide athletic scholarships is facing this.

The lure of Hockey at Harvard is that you get a degree from Harvard. Far more beneficial to most of the participants than D1 football for that 90%+ who never play in the NFL. And the coach was winning a lot of hockey games.

So, the above got me curious and I started looking at their record by year. Up to the 14-15 season, they were outstanding. Since then? They're averaging about 1.5 games over .500. Amazing how you can look the other way on hazing when the team is winning, yet when you stop winning so much the Admins look much more closely at things. Again, just like in a bunch of men's sports.

Here's a fun thought experiment: what's worse, the 9 accusations of sexual assualt and lots of street racing on Georgia's football team, or this hazing-friendly culture (led by students) at Harvard? I don't actually know, but I know that Kirby isn't getting in any trouble whatsoever over the problems on his team. And it would be interesting to see some people tie themselves into knots as they make a determination ahead of time, then try to justify their position.

KIrby gave them numerous lectures about stopping the street racing that they did when they were not practicing with the team. The coaches were frustrated it was still going on (of course if someone had been arrested for it maybe it would have stopped, but then its still happening after the deaths). The people with serious charges haven't played again. Totally different. The coach pretty clearly encouraged players to be hurt at Harvard.

Hazing is illegal and stupid and should never be encouraged by the coach. I was not in a fraternity or anything like the Corps and I think the hazing, even the milder stuff they do now, which often gets kids to flunk out, is just ridiculous and juvenile. I thought it was stupid in junior high, let alone when done by adults.

And they were encouraged to do something illegal, being naked in public. For many people, that sort of thing would be very embarrassing.

(07-01-2023 12:41 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:30 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

You keep resorting to personal insults and I'll keep resorting to logic and reason.

Nothing logical or reasonable about hazing and hurting people.

(07-01-2023 12:37 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 03:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:54 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:45 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 02:14 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  ... then that little blurb hidden in the middle shows that it was actually student-led hazing.

That makes it acceptable because ...

The coach "owns" the ice during team activities. As "owner" they are also the "responsible party". It falls on the coach if the coach allowed it. The End.

The coach knew it was going on.

There was no benefit from that "workout."

Physical abuse of student-athletes. And 80% dropout rate of hockey players last year.

25% dropout rate for all Harvard D1 athletes versus 80% for women’s hockey. Athletes were complaining about the hazing rituals. Someone in senior management will also have to answer for this. It is interesting that a school that doesn’t even provide athletic scholarships is facing this.

The lure of Hockey at Harvard is that you get a degree from Harvard. Far more beneficial to most of the participants than D1 football for that 90%+ who never play in the NFL. And the coach was winning a lot of hockey games.

So, the above got me curious and I started looking at their record by year. Up to the 14-15 season, they were outstanding. Since then? They're averaging about 1.5 games over .500. Amazing how you can look the other way on hazing when the team is winning, yet when you stop winning so much the Admins look much more closely at things. Again, just like in a bunch of men's sports.

Here's a fun thought experiment: what's worse, the 9 accusations of sexual assualt and lots of street racing on Georgia's football team, or this hazing-friendly culture (led by students) at Harvard? I don't actually know, but I know that Kirby isn't getting in any trouble whatsoever over the problems on his team. And it would be interesting to see some people tie themselves into knots as they make a determination ahead of time, then try to justify their position.

If you were told you had to suck c*ck as part of an initiation of a hazing friendly school, are you going to be concerned about street racing at another school?

[/quote]

From bryanw1995

Lot's of crying in this thread about very mild, student-led hazing. And the article generically states that she "knew what was going on", not that she sanctioned it, approved of it, or coordinated it. I'm not saying she's without blame anyway, I'm just saying that she's hardly the most evil female coach in history.

I realize that we, and by "we" I mean mostly older guys like me, have a different perspective on women in sports than modern day coaches, and I think that it's important to look at something like this as we would if it had happened to men. If a men's college sports team did something like this, there'd be an investigation, a few people might get kicked out of school or at least kicked off the team, and the coach probably gets fired or reassigned. If there's a lot more to it beneath the surface and it's a minor sport, they might even stop sponsoring it. Certainly there would be no ridiculous assertions about how "evil" the coach was. When viewed through the lens of "how would a mens coach and/or program be treated in this situation", I think that the punishment fit the crime very well. The coach was very successful for nearly 30 years and didn't have a history of scandal, so she was allowed to quietly resign. Quite likely most, perhaps even all of the hazers are off the team or even off the campus. Problem solved. They'll bring in a panzy who will be afraid to offend anybody for any reason, and they can go 10-20 every year and get their butts kicked by Yale and the rest of the Ivies. Everybody wins.
[/quote]

I can’t speak for others, but for me, it’s more about the anger I have for the coach who let these despicable actions continue. It may not be as bad of approving or initiating the behavior, but finding out and apparently doing nothing is close enough. I don’t know how damaged these young women were or still are due at least in part to Stone’s callous indifference, but I do at least feel sorry for them for the crap they endured.

Harvard should hire a qualified coach who either opposes human degradation, or if they long for the good old days when degrading hazing was viewed somehow as fun, is not stupid enough to allow it to happen. I understand your fear that a “panzy” will be hired as the new coach, which may well happen. Sometimes the pendulum swings to the opposite extreme when these acts occur. But a good coach should be able to maintain an acceptable balance.

Edit: Somehow originally quoted Alanda again, not sure how it keeps happening. Tried to fix it.

NJTerp

(07-01-2023 10:20 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:37 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 03:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:54 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2023 07:45 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  That makes it acceptable because ...

The coach "owns" the ice during team activities. As "owner" they are also the "responsible party". It falls on the coach if the coach allowed it. The End.

The coach knew it was going on.

There was no benefit from that "workout."

Physical abuse of student-athletes. And 80% dropout rate of hockey players last year.

25% dropout rate for all Harvard D1 athletes versus 80% for women’s hockey. Athletes were complaining about the hazing rituals. Someone in senior management will also have to answer for this. It is interesting that a school that doesn’t even provide athletic scholarships is facing this.

The lure of Hockey at Harvard is that you get a degree from Harvard. Far more beneficial to most of the participants than D1 football for that 90%+ who never play in the NFL. And the coach was winning a lot of hockey games.

So, the above got me curious and I started looking at their record by year. Up to the 14-15 season, they were outstanding. Since then? They're averaging about 1.5 games over .500. Amazing how you can look the other way on hazing when the team is winning, yet when you stop winning so much the Admins look much more closely at things. Again, just like in a bunch of men's sports.

Here's a fun thought experiment: what's worse, the 9 accusations of sexual assualt and lots of street racing on Georgia's football team, or this hazing-friendly culture (led by students) at Harvard? I don't actually know, but I know that Kirby isn't getting in any trouble whatsoever over the problems on his team. And it would be interesting to see some people tie themselves into knots as they make a determination ahead of time, then try to justify their position.

If you were told you had to suck c*ck as part of an initiation of a hazing friendly school, are you going to be concerned about street racing at another school?

I missed the part where they were forced into sexual slavery. How could I have missed it? Oh, I know, because it didn't happen.

(07-01-2023 12:57 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:41 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:30 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

You keep resorting to personal insults and I'll keep resorting to logic and reason.

I was kidding - that was not meant to be taken seriously. Just made me laugh you’ve been defending her so much.

Just sharing my opinions, which often don't jive with mainstream thought.

Contrary to what many of you think, I never saw a single instance of hazing in my 4 years in the Corps at A&M. No ax handles, nobody getting punched, literally NOTHING. I did get to enjoy quite a bit of extra physical training as a sophomore and junior due to my smart mouth, but never once did I feel threatened. I'm certainly not some hazing apologist. However, after having lived in a group that is notorious for that sort of thing and never having seen any of it over 4 years, I also realize that it's very hard to act on rumors and/or innuendos. We don't know exactly what the coach knew or didn't know, we just have an article with vague statements that "she knew what was going on". What did she know? Who told her? Did a couple people say something, while most of the players denied that anything happened? What do you do in that situation as a coach? You punt it up the food chain, or at least you should. Ask your boss what to do, right? You can't assume that someone is guilty when there is direct contradictory testimony from teammates, can you?

A culture of hazing is VERY hard to root out and very hard to pinpoint, and if we're being honest here, a whole lot of schools will allow low levels of it to go on as long as the team is winning big. I think that the biggest crime and/or "evil" that Harvard's coach committed was that she turned into a .500 coach for her last EIGHT YEARS as coach. She was elite for 21 years, average for 8 years, but she was tough to fire b/c she of her past success. This whole thing in fact reeks not of some nefarious hazing cover up, but of the school looking for an excuse to push out a coach who had just stuck around too long. As I mentioned above, very much like you'd see at a high profile men's program. So, equality, yah!

(07-01-2023 01:32 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:57 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:41 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-01-2023 12:30 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I had not realized the Harvard Women’s Hockey Coach’s boyfriend was posting here.

You keep resorting to personal insults and I'll keep resorting to logic and reason.

I was kidding - that was not meant to be taken seriously. Just made me laugh you’ve been defending her so much.

Just sharing my opinions, which often don't jive with mainstream thought.

Contrary to what many of you think, I never saw a single instance of hazing in my 4 years in the Corps at A&M. No ax handles, nobody getting punched, literally NOTHING. I'm not some hazing apologist. However, after having lived in a group that is notorious for that sort of thing and never having seen any of it over 4 years, I also realize that it's very hard to act on rumors and/or innuendos. We don't know exactly what the coach knew or didn't knew, we just have an article with vague statements that "she knew what was going on". What did she know? Who told her? Did a couple people say something, while most of the players denied that anything happened? What do you do in that situation as a coach? You punt it up the food chain, or at least you should. Ask your boss what to do, right? You can't assume that someone is guilty when there is direct contradictory testimony from teammates, can you?

A culture of hazing is VERY hard to root out and very hard to pinpoint, and if we're being honest here, a whole lot of schools will allow low levels of it to go on as long as the team is winning big. I think that the biggest crime and/or "evil" that Harvard's coach committed was that she turned into a .500 coach for her last EIGHT YEARS as coach. She was elite for 21 years, average for 8 years, but she was tough to fire b/c she of her past success. This whole thing in fact reeks not of some nefarious hazing cover up, but of the school looking for an excuse to push out a coach who had just stuck around too long. As I mentioned above, very much like you'd see at a high profile men's program. So, equality, yah!

I was just making light of something I found funny - and you're usually pretty good with humor. Don't take that comment to heart.