That's why there are Appellate Courts. Because of judges like this. Borrower's don't determine value, lenders do.

(09-26-2023 07:27 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  To anyone outside the Republican party, this is the least surprising thing ever. To everyone in, it's gonna be real hard to spin this, I look forward to the attempts

It won't matter, you won't understand it either way. If you think there's something to this you're as moronic as the OP.

(09-26-2023 07:59 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  That's why there are Appellate Courts. Because of judges like this. Borrower's don't determine value, lenders do.

If he lied on a gun application instead of a loan application then he’d be criminally indicted… for a 5th time.

I would venture to guess I am one of a few, and perhaps the only, certified general appraiser on this board. I would also speculate that I am the only certified general appraiser that also spent 30 years financing multi-million dollar commercial real estate projects.

First, the simple part - An appraisal is an estimate of value, generally fair market value, and is an opinion based on the current market conditions and pertinent information available at the time of valuation.

The key words are estimate, opinion and market conditions at the effective date of valuation. I could order three appraisals on the exact same property and give each appraiser the exact same information. I will guarantee that I may get 3 similar conclusions or 3 very different conclusions, but I will definitely not get 3 of the same conclusion.

Next, and I’ve said it here before, no bank that lends any kind of money above small Savings and Loan/Credit Union levels, puts one bit of stock in what a customer tells you their real estate is worth. The cash flow tells you what the real estate is worth if you’re a banker. You won’t find a single banker who would get on a witness stand and say a customer defrauded a bank by overstating the value of real estate on a financial statement. To do so is an admission of failure to do your due diligence and they would get destroyed by a defense attorney. Customers aren’t appraisers, they generally give you one of three values for a piece of property - what they paid for it, the value of the last appraisal they had on it, or what they think it’s worth. The first doesn’t matter much (remember that value is based on current market conditions), the second may give an indication, but again is dated (could have lost/gained tenants, average remaining lease life, change in rates, etc), and the last is just an unqualified opinion.

Where you commit fraud on a financial statement is generally through omissions, off balance sheet debt, listing brokerage account values but not mentioning the assets are pledge as collateral, things like that.

This whole thing is crap. It’s like charging someone with theft when the “victim” gave the “criminal” the bike. No bank has alleged that Trump committed fraud against them.

(09-26-2023 08:18 PM)banker Wrote:  I would venture to guess I am one of a few, and perhaps the only, certified general appraiser on this board. I would also speculate that I am the only certified general appraiser that also spent 30 years financing multi-million dollar commercial real estate projects.

First, the simple part - An appraisal is an estimate of value, generally fair market value, and is an opinion based on the current market conditions and pertinent information available at the time of valuation.

The key words are estimate, opinion and market conditions at the effective date of valuation. I could order three appraisals on the exact same property and give each appraiser the exact same information. I will guarantee that I may get 3 similar conclusions or 3 very different conclusions, but I will definitely not get 3 of the same conclusion.

Next, and I’ve said it here before, no bank that lends any kind of money above small Savings and Loan/Credit Union levels, puts one bit of stock in what a customer tells you their real estate is worth. The cash flow tells you what the real estate is worth if you’re a banker. You won’t find a single banker who would get on a witness stand and say a customer defrauded a bank by overstating the value of real estate on a financial statement. To do so is an admission of failure to do your due diligence and they would get destroyed by a defense attorney. Customers aren’t appraisers, they generally give you one of three values for a piece of property - what they paid for it, the value of the last appraisal they had on it, or what they think it’s worth. The first doesn’t matter much (remember that value is based on current market conditions), the second may give an indication, but again is dated (could have lost/gained tenants, average remaining lease life, change in rates, etc), and the last is just an unqualified opinion.

Where you commit fraud on a financial statement is generally through omissions, off balance sheet debt, listing brokerage account values but not mentioning the assets are pledge as collateral, things like that.

This whole thing is crap. It’s like charging someone with theft when the “victim” gave the “criminal” the bike. No bank has alleged that Trump committed fraud against them.

Exactly. As I am a 20 year Residential Appraiser. EVERY borrower "Puffs" the value when they walk into the Originator's office

(09-26-2023 08:06 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 07:59 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  That's why there are Appellate Courts. Because of judges like this. Borrower's don't determine value, lenders do.

If he lied on a gun application instead of a loan application then he’d be criminally indicted… for a 5th time.

I guarantee you Trump NEVER filled out a "Loan Application." He has bankers that beg him to borrow money from them. He never leaves his chair.

(09-26-2023 06:54 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 05:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:59 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:57 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:50 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1...5eLBA&s=19

Side bar: Look at the judge's signature. Is he twelve? Is that his personal superhero logo on the front of his superhero costume?

Judges are lawyers.

Lawyers are self-absorbed douche bags.

World class whine fest there, pardner. Bravo.....

Prove him wrong. I know about ten of you effers, 3 are decent people, 1 is one of my dearest friends. The rest are trash.

Your whine is about as world class as his. Nice tag team there.

Some are good people, some are not. Just like every other vocation or profession.

I am bright enough to know that someone who feels the utter urge to have to generalize on profession is really close to the bottom on the 'handing out common sense' pile, or won the jackpot in the 'got chip on their shoulder about something' line.

Have a great day/ night/ evening there, my friend.

(09-26-2023 08:28 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 08:06 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 07:59 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  That's why there are Appellate Courts. Because of judges like this. Borrower's don't determine value, lenders do.

If he lied on a gun application instead of a loan application then he’d be criminally indicted… for a 5th time.

I guarantee you Trump NEVER filled out a "Loan Application." He has bankers that beg him to borrow money from them. He never leaves his chair.

Care to prove that? I would hazard a guess that every single loan he has has tons of legal agreements in it, containing a whole crap ton of warranties and representations.

Even Trump in deposition acknowledged that -- when he leaned on the magic "worthless" clause as the grand get out of contract misrepresentation key in that testimony.

Intentionally misstating the value of something in light of a representation is absolutely an issue.

I did enjoy Judge Engoron's comment in the ruling dealing with the disclaimer. Trump always called it the "best 'worthless' clause ever drafted", since that "worthless" clause in his mind absolved him of any and all misrepresentations.

"[D]efendants' reliance on these 'worthless' disclaimers is worthless". Ouch.

"Thus the 'worthless' clause ..... does not rise to the level of an enforceable disclaimer, and cannot be used to insulate fraud as to facts peculiarly within defendants' knowledge."

(09-26-2023 03:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:49 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  It's a freaking twitter post.

And if a judge did rule on that it just proves that the judge is illiterate in how appraisals work.

The suit isnt about appraisals per se.

(09-26-2023 03:49 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  It's a freaking twitter post.

Is this better?

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/Do...ystem=prod

(09-26-2023 06:58 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:33 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/...gT9sg&s=19

If you continue to post fake news I'm going to start reporting you.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/Do...ystem=prod

oopsy.

(09-26-2023 08:06 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 07:27 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  To anyone outside the Republican party, this is the least surprising thing ever. To everyone in, it's gonna be real hard to spin this, I look forward to the attempts

It won't matter, you won't understand it either way. If you think there's something to this you're as moronic as the OP.

Exactly. This boils down to the preosecutor having a different opinion of value for specific assets than the Trump people placed on them. I would note that the lender apparently agreed with the Trump valuation at the time. I believe all the loans in question are either paid off or in good standing. Where else in the nation is a legal proceeding like this playing out? I would assume there are lender funded appraisals that reasonably support the property values. If not—-and the lender relied completely on the borrowers collateral value estimate—-then the collateral never really mattered because it was essentially a signature loan

(09-26-2023 06:58 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:33 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/...gT9sg&s=19

If you continue to post fake news I'm going to start reporting you.

I'm so scared. What part is fake?

(09-26-2023 10:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 08:06 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 07:27 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  To anyone outside the Republican party, this is the least surprising thing ever. To everyone in, it's gonna be real hard to spin this, I look forward to the attempts

It won't matter, you won't understand it either way. If you think there's something to this you're as moronic as the OP.

Exactly. This boils down to the preosecutor having a different opinion of value for specific assets than the Trump people placed on them. I would note that the lender apparently agreed with the Trump valuation at the time. I believe all the loans in question are either paid off or in good standing. Where else in the nation is a legal proceeding like this playing out? I would assume there are lender funded appraisals that reasonably support the property values. If not—-then the collateral never really mattered because it was essentially a signature loan

The judge agreed with the prosecutor because the value was bull****.

(09-26-2023 09:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 06:54 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 05:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:59 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:57 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  Side bar: Look at the judge's signature. Is he twelve? Is that his personal superhero logo on the front of his superhero costume?

Judges are lawyers.

Lawyers are self-absorbed douche bags.

World class whine fest there, pardner. Bravo.....

Prove him wrong. I know about ten of you effers, 3 are decent people, 1 is one of my dearest friends. The rest are trash.

Your whine is about as world class as his. Nice tag team there.

Some are good people, some are not. Just like every other vocation or profession.

I am bright enough to know that someone who feels the utter urge to have to generalize on profession is really close to the bottom on the 'handing out common sense' pile, or won the jackpot in the 'got chip on their shoulder about something' line.

Have a great day/ night/ evening there, my friend.

You're a legend in your own mind.

(09-26-2023 09:23 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 06:58 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:33 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/...gT9sg&s=19

If you continue to post fake news I'm going to start reporting you.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/Do...ystem=prod

oopsy.

Aw how cute, jumping to the defense of an even bigger loon than yourself.

(09-26-2023 10:32 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 10:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 08:06 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 07:27 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  To anyone outside the Republican party, this is the least surprising thing ever. To everyone in, it's gonna be real hard to spin this, I look forward to the attempts

It won't matter, you won't understand it either way. If you think there's something to this you're as moronic as the OP.

Exactly. This boils down to the preosecutor having a different opinion of value for specific assets than the Trump people placed on them. I would note that the lender apparently agreed with the Trump valuation at the time. I believe all the loans in question are either paid off or in good standing. Where else in the nation is a legal proceeding like this playing out? I would assume there are lender funded appraisals that reasonably support the property values. If not—-then the collateral never really mattered because it was essentially a signature loan

The judge agreed with the prosecutor because the value was bull****.

Hey Tom, better watch your six, we have a new resident expert on everything gunning for your job.

Am I the only one who wonders about the timing of this? Curious that it comes out the same day as news of Hunter receiving 260 from the Chinese with the beneficiary address that of his dear old daddy.

Loons: Nothing to see here! This is not the fraud you are looking for.

(09-26-2023 10:28 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 06:58 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-26-2023 03:33 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/...gT9sg&s=19

If you continue to post fake news I'm going to start reporting you.

I'm so scared. What part is fake?

The part at the beginning, in the middle and at the end. Kind of like you posting that Trump bought a gun. Fake ass shite from a fake ass traveling man.