(01-05-2024 12:32 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-04-2024 11:46 PM)C2__ Wrote:  As we've said, they miss Marshall. With him, they're Top 25 caliber. Without him, they're mediocre.

(01-04-2024 11:53 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Everyone always forget this about Wichita:

They made 1 NCAA Tournament between 1988 and 2012. 1 in 23 years.

So, they're a one hit wonder...

Actually, Wichita has been producing NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16 (or later) teams and NBA players for many decades, going back to the 60's (including 2 Final Fours). Their problem is consistency. As I said, lots of valleys. They become relevant for a year or five, then go dormant, sometimes for well over a decade at a time.

Had Marshall not been so obsessive compulsive and lost his job, they'd still be finished in the top 25 many years.

Bigger concern for Wichita is what’s happening to their attendance. They barely drew above 7k last year. Historically they’ve always been able to fill their 10k seat arena. Even in 2008 when they went 11-20 in Marshall’s first year they drew 10,400. This year in their conference opener they drew 5500 for UNT. That’s a far cry from the electric crowd UH saw in Wichitas first AAC game back in 2017-18.

(01-05-2024 01:07 AM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 12:32 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-04-2024 11:46 PM)C2__ Wrote:  As we've said, they miss Marshall. With him, they're Top 25 caliber. Without him, they're mediocre.

(01-04-2024 11:53 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Everyone always forget this about Wichita:

They made 1 NCAA Tournament between 1988 and 2012. 1 in 23 years.

So, they're a one hit wonder...

Actually, Wichita has been producing NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16 (or later) teams and NBA players for many decades, going back to the 60's (including 2 Final Fours). Their problem is consistency. As I said, lots of valleys. They become relevant for a year or five, then go dormant, sometimes for well over a decade at a time.

Had Marshall not been so obsessive compulsive and lost his job, they'd still be finished in the top 25 many years.

Dude. Going back to the 60s? Oh, so we look at a program over the past 60 years? LOL! Do you work for WSU PR Department? You're missing my point. They were supposed to bring it when they joined the AAC. It never materialized. They've been Marshall-thorped. They'd been better off staying in the MVC where they dominated. One hit wonders...

What's your point? All I'm saying is Wichita is not a one-hit wonder, as you said. Not consistent by any stretch but they have produced NBA players and deep NCAA Tournament runs for decades. That's better than at least 95% of all D-I programs, including some in the power structure (e.g. Nebraska, who's never even danced, Northwestern).

(01-05-2024 01:41 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 01:07 AM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 12:32 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-04-2024 11:46 PM)C2__ Wrote:  As we've said, they miss Marshall. With him, they're Top 25 caliber. Without him, they're mediocre.

(01-04-2024 11:53 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Everyone always forget this about Wichita:

They made 1 NCAA Tournament between 1988 and 2012. 1 in 23 years.

So, they're a one hit wonder...

Actually, Wichita has been producing NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16 (or later) teams and NBA players for many decades, going back to the 60's (including 2 Final Fours). Their problem is consistency. As I said, lots of valleys. They become relevant for a year or five, then go dormant, sometimes for well over a decade at a time.

Had Marshall not been so obsessive compulsive and lost his job, they'd still be finished in the top 25 many years.

Dude. Going back to the 60s? Oh, so we look at a program over the past 60 years? LOL! Do you work for WSU PR Department? You're missing my point. They were supposed to bring it when they joined the AAC. It never materialized. They've been Marshall-thorped. They'd been better off staying in the MVC where they dominated. One hit wonders...

Do final fours from the 60’s not count? I do agree though that in hindsight Wichita probably would’ve been better off staying in the MVC and holding out for a BE invite. Moving to the AAC might’ve made since if they were allowed to bring their football with them but as a basketball only add it was shortsighted. Good or bad when Wichita was in the MVC they were drawing 10k fans. That doesn’t seem to be the case in the AAC. Ofc their HOF caliber HC having to resign in disgrace didn’t help. Most programs fail to replace one great coach with another. In fact it usually takes 2-3. Sampson was our 7th coach post Guy V. Lewis. So it’s hard to say when Wichita will strike gold again.

(01-04-2024 11:09 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  Michigan is going to be coach shopping in the spring

The BIG is awful though

You make the exact same remark during the football season

I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

(01-05-2024 08:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

AAC membership was no doubt harmful to UConn. Look where they are now in the Big East.

(01-05-2024 01:14 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Bigger concern for Wichita is what’s happening to their attendance. They barely drew above 7k last year. Historically they’ve always been able to fill their 10k seat arena. Even in 2008 when they went 11-20 in Marshall’s first year they drew 10,400. This year in their conference opener they drew 5500 for UNT. That’s a far cry from the electric crowd UH saw in Wichitas first AAC game back in 2017-18.

That's amazing. I remember back in their Valley days they'd always sell out their 10.5k seat arena. Whenever they'd be on tv in the mid-2000s or 2010s, the Roundhouse was completely full.

It's hard to imagine a half-empty Roundhouse.

(01-05-2024 08:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

Looking at the NET rankings - the A10 is 8th, MVC is 9th, & AAC is 10th.

What's surprising is Wichita's 130 NET would rank 8th in the MVC - a full 17 spots behind 7th (113). An 8th place Wichita MVC team is almost unthinkable, considering they Gonzaga'd the MVC for a 5-year stretch before leaving.

(01-05-2024 08:51 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 08:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

AAC membership was no doubt harmful to UConn. Look where they are now in the Big East.

The AAC is very respectable in football, baseball and men's and women's soccer.

But in men's and women's hoops ... ugly.

(01-05-2024 02:01 AM)C2__ Wrote:  What's your point? All I'm saying is Wichita is not a one-hit wonder, as you said. Not consistent by any stretch but they have produced NBA players and deep NCAA Tournament runs for decades. That's better than at least 95% of all D-I programs, including some in the power structure (e.g. Nebraska, who's never even danced, Northwestern).

If you extrapolate many programs over DECADES you can find pockets of success but your 95% better than ALL D-1 programs comparison is a farse. It's like your Texas State thread is a sleeping giant in the G5 based on one winning season in the past 12+ seasons. Hyperbole is your friend.

That aside, here's my point that for some reason you can't grasp. You follow Houston, correct? Houston was in the AAC, correct? Do you remember Commissioner Mike Aresco? Do you remember his touting the addition of WSU to the conference? They were supposed to add to the strength of the conference and become another team to make the NCAAT from our conference. The problem is it never materialized except for Marshall's first season in the AAC. I believe they got bounced in their opening NCAAT game. They've never won a regular season title and they've never won a conference tournament. I don't care, and I'm sure the other AAC members don't care, how many NBA players or deep runs they made decades ago. It was a poor add to the conference because they never elevated themselves nor elevated the conference as a whole. It was a bad decision from Aresco hands down.

**EDIT: I double checked and missed that WSU was the AAC regular season champion under Issac Brown in 2021. I stand corrected on that point.

(01-05-2024 11:25 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 02:01 AM)C2__ Wrote:  What's your point? All I'm saying is Wichita is not a one-hit wonder, as you said. Not consistent by any stretch but they have produced NBA players and deep NCAA Tournament runs for decades. That's better than at least 95% of all D-I programs, including some in the power structure (e.g. Nebraska, who's never even danced, Northwestern).

If you extrapolate many programs over DECADES you can find pockets of success but your 95% better than ALL D-1 programs comparison is a farse. It's like your Texas State thread is a sleeping giant in the G5 based on one winning season in the past 12+ seasons. Hyperbole is your friend.

That aside, here's my point that for some reason you can't grasp. You follow Houston, correct? Houston was in the AAC, correct? Do you remember Commissioner Mike Aresco? Do you remember his touting the addition of WSU to the conference? They were supposed to add to the strength of the conference and become another team to make the NCAAT from our conference. The problem is it never materialized except for Marshall's first season in the AAC. I believe they got bounced in their opening NCAAT game. They've never won a regular season title and they've never won a conference tournament. I don't care, and I'm sure the other AAC members don't care, how many NBA players or deep runs they made decades ago. It was a poor add to the conference because they never elevated themselves nor elevated the conference as a whole. It was a bad decision from Aresco hands down.

**EDIT: I double checked and missed that WSU was the AAC regular season champion under Issac Brown in 2021. I stand corrected on that point.

That’s crap. Since Wichita was added they’ve been the 4th best program in the AAC and two of the programs that were better (UH and Cincy) have left. They’ve underperformed in the AAC relative to what the expectations were when they joined, sure. But then again, outside of Houston, who hasn’t? Even Cincy never made the 2nd weekend of the tourney. In fact they weren’t the only program to choke in the tourney in 2018 (Cincy-Nevada comes to mind). So ease up some on Wichita. They’ve still been additive to the league as a whole. I always enjoyed our games with them. The games in Wichita were always hard fought and in front of great crowds. They were also probably the only fan base in the league that actually traveled. We always had at least 1k Wichita fans at the games in Houston and at the conference tournament. Truthfully Wichita was one of the few programs in the league that helped prepare our teams for the tourney. Adding them wasn’t a mistake for the league. Though I do think that joining the AAC turned out to be a mistake for them.

(01-05-2024 12:35 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  That’s crap. Since Wichita was added they’ve been the 4th best program in the AAC and two of the programs that were better (UH and Cincy) have left. They’ve underperformed in the AAC relative to what the expectations were when they joined, sure. But then again, outside of Houston, who hasn’t? Even Cincy never made the 2nd weekend of the tourney. In fact they weren’t the only program to choke in the tourney in 2018 (Cincy-Nevada comes to mind). So ease up some on Wichita. They’ve still been additive to the league as a whole. I always enjoyed our games with them. The games in Wichita were always hard fought and in front of great crowds. They were also probably the only fan base in the league that actually traveled. We always had at least 1k Wichita fans at the games in Houston and at the conference tournament. Truthfully Wichita was one of the few programs in the league that helped prepare our teams for the tourney. Adding them wasn’t a mistake for the league. Though I do think that joining the AAC turned out to be a mistake for them.

It's not crap. It's your opinion. Fine. You've furthered my points. Now that UConn, Houston and Cincinnati have gone where is their success? Memphis has kept it going and then some. WSU was dominant in the MVC and in the AAC not so much. Now they're an also-ran in a watered down league. I'm not picking on them...I'm pointing out that as a basketball only add it was a poor decision in hindsight. We can agree to disagree on that point.

FWIW, don't drag Cincinnati's NCAAT games into this. Cincinnati helped carry the AAC winning multiple regular season and conference tournament championships.

(01-05-2024 12:51 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 12:35 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  That’s crap. Since Wichita was added they’ve been the 4th best program in the AAC and two of the programs that were better (UH and Cincy) have left. They’ve underperformed in the AAC relative to what the expectations were when they joined, sure. But then again, outside of Houston, who hasn’t? Even Cincy never made the 2nd weekend of the tourney. In fact they weren’t the only program to choke in the tourney in 2018 (Cincy-Nevada comes to mind). So ease up some on Wichita. They’ve still been additive to the league as a whole. I always enjoyed our games with them. The games in Wichita were always hard fought and in front of great crowds. They were also probably the only fan base in the league that actually traveled. We always had at least 1k Wichita fans at the games in Houston and at the conference tournament. Truthfully Wichita was one of the few programs in the league that helped prepare our teams for the tourney. Adding them wasn’t a mistake for the league. Though I do think that joining the AAC turned out to be a mistake for them.

It's not crap. It's your opinion. Fine. You've furthered my points. Now that UConn, Houston and Cincinnati have gone where is their success? Memphis has kept it going and then some. WSU was dominant in the MVC and in the AAC not so much. Now they're an also-ran in a watered down league. I'm not picking on them...I'm pointing out that as a basketball only add it was a poor decision in hindsight. We can agree to disagree on that point.

FWIW, don't drag Cincinnati's NCAAT games into this. Cincinnati helped carry the AAC winning multiple regular season and conference tournament championships.

I agree 100 percent with WhoseHouse, so that's a second opinion in support of Wichita.

This Memphis fan (who also likes to see Cincinnati do well because my brother is a UC grad) is highly pleased to have Wichita in the AAC (though, as you correctly note, the Shockers have underperformed since joining the league).

WSU basketball offers a very solid fan base/history and a decent level of national respect — which is more than can be said for most of the other AAC men's hoops programs.

And, in a way, I do feel you are somewhat "picking on" Wichita. You make some legit points but you could stand to be a bit less harsh.

(01-05-2024 12:51 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 12:35 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  That’s crap. Since Wichita was added they’ve been the 4th best program in the AAC and two of the programs that were better (UH and Cincy) have left. They’ve underperformed in the AAC relative to what the expectations were when they joined, sure. But then again, outside of Houston, who hasn’t? Even Cincy never made the 2nd weekend of the tourney. In fact they weren’t the only program to choke in the tourney in 2018 (Cincy-Nevada comes to mind). So ease up some on Wichita. They’ve still been additive to the league as a whole. I always enjoyed our games with them. The games in Wichita were always hard fought and in front of great crowds. They were also probably the only fan base in the league that actually traveled. We always had at least 1k Wichita fans at the games in Houston and at the conference tournament. Truthfully Wichita was one of the few programs in the league that helped prepare our teams for the tourney. Adding them wasn’t a mistake for the league. Though I do think that joining the AAC turned out to be a mistake for them.

It's not crap. It's your opinion. Fine. You've furthered my points. Now that UConn, Houston and Cincinnati have gone where is their success? Memphis has kept it going and then some. WSU was dominant in the MVC and in the AAC not so much. Now they're an also-ran in a watered down league. I'm not picking on them...I'm pointing out that as a basketball only add it was a poor decision in hindsight. We can agree to disagree on that point.

FWIW, don't drag Cincinnati's NCAAT games into this. Cincinnati helped carry the AAC winning multiple regular season and conference tournament championships.

Look 92 I like you. I think you’re a good poster but I feel like you’re going in on Wichita a bit much. I brought up the Nevada game not to dunk on Cincy but to highlight the fact that they’re hardly the only program that’s struggled to win in March. Consider this, in the time we shared a league with them Cincy and Wichita had the same amount of regular season titles, tourney bids, and NIT appearances (1, 2, and 1 respectively). So even if they fell short of the expectations we had for them they were still one of the better programs in the league. They were also top 3 in attendance every year in the league. Their presence helped to elevate the league even if they weren’t able to replicate the success that they’d had in the MVC.

As for what they’ve done since we left… my dude it’s only been half a season. They have a new coach. Let’s give them some time before we call them an “also ran”.

(01-05-2024 08:51 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 08:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

AAC membership was no doubt harmful to UConn. Look where they are now in the Big East.

Umm, they won a national title in the AAC. And as Houston proved, it's possible to build a program that can go to the Final Four and get 1-seeds out of the AAC.

They just had a bad coach who was handed the keys to a Maserati, hence why he won a national championship.

(01-05-2024 01:41 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 01:07 AM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 12:32 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-04-2024 11:46 PM)C2__ Wrote:  As we've said, they miss Marshall. With him, they're Top 25 caliber. Without him, they're mediocre.

(01-04-2024 11:53 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Everyone always forget this about Wichita:

They made 1 NCAA Tournament between 1988 and 2012. 1 in 23 years.

So, they're a one hit wonder...

Actually, Wichita has been producing NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16 (or later) teams and NBA players for many decades, going back to the 60's (including 2 Final Fours). Their problem is consistency. As I said, lots of valleys. They become relevant for a year or five, then go dormant, sometimes for well over a decade at a time.

Had Marshall not been so obsessive compulsive and lost his job, they'd still be finished in the top 25 many years.

Dude. Going back to the 60s? Oh, so we look at a program over the past 60 years? LOL! Do you work for WSU PR Department? You're missing my point. They were supposed to bring it when they joined the AAC. It never materialized. They've been Marshall-thorped. They'd been better off staying in the MVC where they dominated. One hit wonders...

Cincy looked good this year in the big 12. I wonder what people will be saying about you guys in a few years if you keep this up. It's HARD to move to a new/more competitive conference.

(01-05-2024 08:51 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 08:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would think (maybe I'm wrong) most fans of the Wichita, Memphis and Temple men's basketball programs feel AAC membership has been harmful — or, at the least, is unappealing. In many respects, Wichita would be better served to return to the Missouri Valley and Temple would be better off in the A10. Those two schools are somewhat (if not strongly) odd fits for the current AAC. Memphis is simply stuck with nowhere else to go.

AAC membership was no doubt harmful to UConn. Look where they are now in the Big East.

It's not like they aggressively CHOSE the AAC. They would be better-served than anybody with a reunited Big East.

(01-05-2024 11:25 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 02:01 AM)C2__ Wrote:  What's your point? All I'm saying is Wichita is not a one-hit wonder, as you said. Not consistent by any stretch but they have produced NBA players and deep NCAA Tournament runs for decades. That's better than at least 95% of all D-I programs, including some in the power structure (e.g. Nebraska, who's never even danced, Northwestern).

If you extrapolate many programs over DECADES you can find pockets of success but your 95% better than ALL D-1 programs comparison is a farse. It's like your Texas State thread is a sleeping giant in the G5 based on one winning season in the past 12+ seasons. Hyperbole is your friend.

That aside, here's my point that for some reason you can't grasp. You follow Houston, correct? Houston was in the AAC, correct? Do you remember Commissioner Mike Aresco? Do you remember his touting the addition of WSU to the conference? They were supposed to add to the strength of the conference and become another team to make the NCAAT from our conference. The problem is it never materialized except for Marshall's first season in the AAC. I believe they got bounced in their opening NCAAT game. They've never won a regular season title and they've never won a conference tournament. I don't care, and I'm sure the other AAC members don't care, how many NBA players or deep runs they made decades ago. It was a poor add to the conference because they never elevated themselves nor elevated the conference as a whole. It was a bad decision from Aresco hands down.

**EDIT: I double checked and missed that WSU was the AAC regular season champion under Issac Brown in 2021. I stand corrected on that point.

Fine, we only have to go back 20 seasons or even 11 seasons and Wichita has all the relevance you want (1 Final Four, 1 top seed, one undefeated season, 2 Sweet 16's, 8 NCAA Tournament wins, 7 NCAA Tournament appearances since 2013).

So what if they haven't set the world on fire lately, they obviously have some potential to do so. And they have recent history to fall back on, not going back 6 decades since that doesn't count in your book. They even Danced once and won a *conference title (COVID) without Marshall.

You're just trying to take the long-winded approach of not giving them the credit where credit is due.