(01-05-2024 01:38 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Look 92 I like you. I think you’re a good poster but I feel like you’re going in on Wichita a bit much. I brought up the Nevada game not to dunk on Cincy but to highlight the fact that they’re hardly the only program that’s struggled to win in March. Consider this, in the time we shared a league with them Cincy and Wichita had the same amount of regular season titles, tourney bids, and NIT appearances (1, 2, and 1 respectively). So even if they fell short of the expectations we had for them they were still one of the better programs in the league. They were also top 3 in attendance every year in the league. Their presence helped to elevate the league even if they weren’t able to replicate the success that they’d had in the MVC.

As for what they’ve done since we left… my dude it’s only been half a season. They have a new coach. Let’s give them some time before we call them an “also ran”.

A couple things...

First, why are you the one making this personal? I have no issue with you. I appreciate you think I'm a good poster but what does that have to do with my opinion? Just like you, I'm stating my position and including facts to back it up. If that makes you feel I'm picking on, being harsh or bullying then so be it. Dear Lord if everyone agreed in these threads this would be a very boring place indeed.

Second, I think it's a bit disingenuous to only highlight a few years of Cincinnati's membership in the AAC to elevate WSU. I could do the same with Houston or any other program in the AAC and highlight the down years and not take their successes in the entirety of league membership. That paints a less than accurate picture, no?

Third, let's compare apples to apples in the league numbers. WSU's prior six seasons in the AAC have resulted in one regular season conference chip, 2 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 1 Final AP Poll ranking [#16]. Cincinnati's ten AAC seasons [include UConn and Louisville as members] resulted in 3 regular season conference chips [one outright], 2 conference tourney chips, 6 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 4 Final AP Poll rankings [high of #6]. My point here is that Cincinnati had already established it's success and brand cache in the league - not just the few years you compared.

Finally, WSU's trajectory before and after Gregg Marshall is not good. Other than a Mark Turgeon NCAAT bid in 2006, you'd have to go all the way back to Eddie Fogler in 1988 for a bid prior to that. Moving forward Issac Brown finished 48-34 overall and the current coach is 8-6 [0-1] with a 130 NET. Again, this was a program that Mike Aresco brought in as a basketball only add to bring value and performance to the league. I don't believe it has reached that expectation and it doesn't appear based on past and current trajectories that it will. Thus, my calling them an "also-ran" or one hit wonder stands. If you believe otherwise or the jury is still out then fine. I respectfully disagree.

(01-05-2024 03:28 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 11:25 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 02:01 AM)C2__ Wrote:  What's your point? All I'm saying is Wichita is not a one-hit wonder, as you said. Not consistent by any stretch but they have produced NBA players and deep NCAA Tournament runs for decades. That's better than at least 95% of all D-I programs, including some in the power structure (e.g. Nebraska, who's never even danced, Northwestern).

If you extrapolate many programs over DECADES you can find pockets of success but your 95% better than ALL D-1 programs comparison is a farse. It's like your Texas State thread is a sleeping giant in the G5 based on one winning season in the past 12+ seasons. Hyperbole is your friend.

That aside, here's my point that for some reason you can't grasp. You follow Houston, correct? Houston was in the AAC, correct? Do you remember Commissioner Mike Aresco? Do you remember his touting the addition of WSU to the conference? They were supposed to add to the strength of the conference and become another team to make the NCAAT from our conference. The problem is it never materialized except for Marshall's first season in the AAC. I believe they got bounced in their opening NCAAT game. They've never won a regular season title and they've never won a conference tournament. I don't care, and I'm sure the other AAC members don't care, how many NBA players or deep runs they made decades ago. It was a poor add to the conference because they never elevated themselves nor elevated the conference as a whole. It was a bad decision from Aresco hands down.

**EDIT: I double checked and missed that WSU was the AAC regular season champion under Issac Brown in 2021. I stand corrected on that point.

Fine, we only have to go back 20 seasons or even 11 seasons and Wichita has all the relevance you want (1 Final Four, 1 top seed, one undefeated season, 2 Sweet 16's, 8 NCAA Tournament wins, 7 NCAA Tournament appearances since 2013).

So what if they haven't set the world on fire lately, they obviously have some potential to do so. And they have recent history to fall back on, not going back 6 decades since that doesn't count in your book. They even Danced once and won a *conference title (COVID) without Marshall.

You're just trying to take the long-winded approach of not giving them the credit where credit is due.

Nope. You're deflecting as my points have nothing to do with "giving them credit." I'm not going to keep trying to spell it out for you. Short or long-winded won't matter because I don't share your opinion.

(01-05-2024 03:45 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 01:38 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Look 92 I like you. I think you’re a good poster but I feel like you’re going in on Wichita a bit much. I brought up the Nevada game not to dunk on Cincy but to highlight the fact that they’re hardly the only program that’s struggled to win in March. Consider this, in the time we shared a league with them Cincy and Wichita had the same amount of regular season titles, tourney bids, and NIT appearances (1, 2, and 1 respectively). So even if they fell short of the expectations we had for them they were still one of the better programs in the league. They were also top 3 in attendance every year in the league. Their presence helped to elevate the league even if they weren’t able to replicate the success that they’d had in the MVC.

As for what they’ve done since we left… my dude it’s only been half a season. They have a new coach. Let’s give them some time before we call them an “also ran”.

A couple things...

First, why are you the one making this personal? I have no issue with you. I appreciate you think I'm a good poster but what does that have to do with my opinion? Just like you, I'm stating my position and including facts to back it up. If that makes you feel I'm picking on, being harsh or bullying then so be it. Dear Lord if everyone agreed in these threads this would be a very boring place indeed.

Second, I think it's a bit disingenuous to only highlight a few years of Cincinnati's membership in the AAC to elevate WSU. I could do the same with Houston or any other program in the AAC and highlight the down years and not take their successes in the entirety of league membership. That paints a less than accurate picture, no?

Third, let's compare apples to apples in the league numbers. WSU's prior six seasons in the AAC have resulted in one regular season conference chip, 2 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 1 Final AP Poll ranking [#16]. Cincinnati's ten AAC seasons [include UConn and Louisville as members] resulted in 3 regular season conference chips [one outright], 2 conference tourney chips, 6 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 4 Final AP Poll rankings [high of #6]. My point here is that Cincinnati had already established it's success and brand cache in the league - not just the few years you compared.

Finally, WSU's trajectory before and after Gregg Marshall is not good. Other than a Mark Turgeon NCAAT bid in 2006, you'd have to go all the way back to Eddie Fogler in 1988 for a bid prior to that. Moving forward Issac Brown finished 48-34 overall and the current coach is 8-6 [0-1] with a 130 NET. Again, this was a program that Mike Aresco brought in as a basketball only add to bring value and performance to the league. I don't believe it has reached that expectation and it doesn't appear based on past and current trajectories that it will. Thus, my calling them an "also-ran" or one hit wonder stands. If you believe otherwise or the jury is still out then fine. I respectfully disagree.

I’m not making things personal. Im simply stating facts. I mentioned that I liked you as poster to assure that I wasn’t trying to flame you by bringing up the Nevada game because it seemed like that bothered you.

As for the Cincy-Wichita comparison I was making, I think it’s sufficient to only look at the years the two teams were in the league together. Because I wasn’t arguing that Wichita has been as valuable to the league as Cincy but rather challenging your claim that adding them was a “big mistake”. How? Wichita has been top 3 in attendance every year they’ve been in the league. Their fans travel to games. They gave the league added brand recognition. On the court they’ve been no worse than the 4th best team in the league. In a head to head comparison with your own team, they’ve been very close to mirroring y’all’s postseason results.

They got derailed by Marshall’s scandal. But guess what every AAC programs success (no matter how rich in tradition), is dependent on having a great coach. Houston was nothing before Sampson. SMU was nothing after Larry Brown. Memphis was down before Penny. Temple has been mediocre after Dunphy. And yes Cincy hasn’t been the same since Cronin left. Wichita is no different in that regard.

Are they down right now? Yes. But frankly given the fact that the league just lost two of its top 3 brands, the Wichita add is even more defensible. Their ceiling is higher than every AAC program except Memphis. Reason being, they’ve show the ability to pack a 10k+ stadium in losing seasons. The level of fan support they have dwarves the rest of the AAC (again minus Memphis). They can absolutely get back to being a top level AAC program.

(01-05-2024 04:20 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 03:45 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 01:38 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Look 92 I like you. I think you’re a good poster but I feel like you’re going in on Wichita a bit much. I brought up the Nevada game not to dunk on Cincy but to highlight the fact that they’re hardly the only program that’s struggled to win in March. Consider this, in the time we shared a league with them Cincy and Wichita had the same amount of regular season titles, tourney bids, and NIT appearances (1, 2, and 1 respectively). So even if they fell short of the expectations we had for them they were still one of the better programs in the league. They were also top 3 in attendance every year in the league. Their presence helped to elevate the league even if they weren’t able to replicate the success that they’d had in the MVC.

As for what they’ve done since we left… my dude it’s only been half a season. They have a new coach. Let’s give them some time before we call them an “also ran”.

A couple things...

First, why are you the one making this personal? I have no issue with you. I appreciate you think I'm a good poster but what does that have to do with my opinion? Just like you, I'm stating my position and including facts to back it up. If that makes you feel I'm picking on, being harsh or bullying then so be it. Dear Lord if everyone agreed in these threads this would be a very boring place indeed.

Second, I think it's a bit disingenuous to only highlight a few years of Cincinnati's membership in the AAC to elevate WSU. I could do the same with Houston or any other program in the AAC and highlight the down years and not take their successes in the entirety of league membership. That paints a less than accurate picture, no?

Third, let's compare apples to apples in the league numbers. WSU's prior six seasons in the AAC have resulted in one regular season conference chip, 2 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 1 Final AP Poll ranking [#16]. Cincinnati's ten AAC seasons [include UConn and Louisville as members] resulted in 3 regular season conference chips [one outright], 2 conference tourney chips, 6 NCAAT appearances, 1 NIT appearance and 4 Final AP Poll rankings [high of #6]. My point here is that Cincinnati had already established it's success and brand cache in the league - not just the few years you compared.

Finally, WSU's trajectory before and after Gregg Marshall is not good. Other than a Mark Turgeon NCAAT bid in 2006, you'd have to go all the way back to Eddie Fogler in 1988 for a bid prior to that. Moving forward Issac Brown finished 48-34 overall and the current coach is 8-6 [0-1] with a 130 NET. Again, this was a program that Mike Aresco brought in as a basketball only add to bring value and performance to the league. I don't believe it has reached that expectation and it doesn't appear based on past and current trajectories that it will. Thus, my calling them an "also-ran" or one hit wonder stands. If you believe otherwise or the jury is still out then fine. I respectfully disagree.

I’m not making things personal. Im simply stating facts. I mentioned that I liked you as poster to assure that I wasn’t trying to flame you by bringing up the Nevada game because it seemed like that bothered you.

As for the Cincy-Wichita comparison I was making, I think it’s sufficient to only look at the years the two teams were in the league together. Because I wasn’t arguing that Wichita has been as valuable to the league as Cincy but rather challenging your claim that adding them was a “big mistake”. How? Wichita has been top 3 in attendance every year they’ve been in the league. Their fans travel to games. They gave the league added brand recognition. On the court they’ve been no worse than the 4th best team in the league. In a head to head comparison with your own team, they’ve been very close to mirroring y’all’s postseason results.

They got derailed by Marshall’s scandal. But guess what every AAC programs success (no matter how rich in tradition), is dependent on having a great coach. Houston was nothing before Sampson. SMU was nothing after Larry Brown. Memphis was down before Penny. Temple has been mediocre after Dunphy. And yes Cincy hasn’t been the same since Cronin left. Wichita is no different in that regard.

Are they down right now? Yes. But frankly given the fact that the league just lost two of its top 3 brands, the Wichita add is even more defensible. Their ceiling is higher than every AAC program except Memphis. Reason being, they’ve show the ability to pack a 10k+ stadium in losing seasons. The level of fan support they have dwarves the rest of the AAC (again minus Memphis). They can absolutely get back to being a top level AAC program.

Perfectly framed, WhoseHouse. I agree with this fully and strongly.

(01-05-2024 09:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-05-2024 01:14 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Bigger concern for Wichita is what’s happening to their attendance. They barely drew above 7k last year. Historically they’ve always been able to fill their 10k seat arena. Even in 2008 when they went 11-20 in Marshall’s first year they drew 10,400. This year in their conference opener they drew 5500 for UNT. That’s a far cry from the electric crowd UH saw in Wichitas first AAC game back in 2017-18.

That's amazing. I remember back in their Valley days they'd always sell out their 10.5k seat arena. Whenever they'd be on tv in the mid-2000s or 2010s, the Roundhouse was completely full.

It's hard to imagine a half-empty Roundhouse.

You’d get some angles last night on the telecast that caught the depth of the crowd. It wasn’t good in spots. I was watching the game for a bit with my daughter and talked up WSU about how good they were and popular a place to play it was, but that they weren’t good now.

I kind of wish both Wichita and Temple took their business to the MAC. No reason they couldn’t “Gonzaga it up” there (I really like that expession). The footprint wouldn’t be nearly as ruthless for Temple, and Wichita would sort of revert back to the old footprint (minus a presence in Iowa).

Fairfield's Brycen Goodine has the first 40 point game in regulation of the season nationally across D1. Stock is rising in my opinion for the Stags to win the MAAC which is wide open this season.

(01-06-2024 09:33 AM)Mid-Major Hoops Enthusiast Wrote:  Fairfield's Brycen Goodine has the first 40 point game in regulation of the season nationally across D1. Stock is rising in my opinion for the Stags to win the MAAC which is wide open this season.

How many years have you followed college hoops? I'm impressed with your knowledge, MMHE.

(01-06-2024 10:36 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-06-2024 09:33 AM)Mid-Major Hoops Enthusiast Wrote:  Fairfield's Brycen Goodine has the first 40 point game in regulation of the season nationally across D1. Stock is rising in my opinion for the Stags to win the MAAC which is wide open this season.

How many years have you followed college hoops? I'm impressed with your knowledge, MMHE.

I wasn't following for a few years in between the end of the 2010's but probably started following college hoops closely around 2009-10 so maybe 12 years. I'm 29 now. First proper memories were probably in the 2009-10 season when Butler made their first run to the national championship.

Auburn sets largest margin of victory at Bud Walton Arena by defeating Arkansas by 32.

Coogs cruise to an 89-55 point victory over WVU in their Big 12 debut. Life is good!

UH has now beaten West Virginia for their first Big 12 win in men's basketball, soccer, volleyball and football.

Previously undefeated Ole Miss gets pounded by Tennessee 90-64

And James Madison loses to Southern Mississippi. So it isn't all bad in men's basketball in the state of Mississippi.

And then there was one...

(01-06-2024 12:10 PM)Mid-Major Hoops Enthusiast Wrote:  

(01-06-2024 10:36 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-06-2024 09:33 AM)Mid-Major Hoops Enthusiast Wrote:  Fairfield's Brycen Goodine has the first 40 point game in regulation of the season nationally across D1. Stock is rising in my opinion for the Stags to win the MAAC which is wide open this season.

How many years have you followed college hoops? I'm impressed with your knowledge, MMHE.

I wasn't following for a few years in between the end of the 2010's but probably started following college hoops closely around 2009-10 so maybe 12 years. I'm 29 now. First proper memories were probably in the 2009-10 season when Butler made their first run to the national championship.

Interesting. I was curious. You've learned a lot in a relatively brief time.

Good work.

how crazy is this?

Northwestern 88 Michigan State 74

I know the Spartans' "numbers" are still good but as a program, their time as a consistent national presence under Izzo appears to be over. Similar to Boeheim where the regular season was a roller coaster ride that one hoped ended in a great last hurrah in the tournament where the randomness can often favor the underdog. At least for a couple of rounds...