(03-19-2024 10:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

I see it’s going to be another fun summer around here. Will it top summer 2023?

(03-19-2024 12:03 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  Carolina's approach to this will be interesting considering they cannot make the decision to leave the conference without consent from the BOG, which is heavily influenced by NC State. I imagine they can't officially make the argument they can make more money elsewhere without giving consideration to NC State.

Filing jointly with NC State would definitely have seedy undertones, implying tampering by other conferences. This would definitely enforce the belief—much to Bryan's chagrin—that the two are a package deal. Which they should be 1000000%

Can Carolina sue the conference regarding unfair exit penalties etc.? Sure, but the BOG would have to know why they are suing their conference for exit penalties unless they wanted to exit, which circles back to the NC State question of their future and tampering etc.

IMO, there is little chance that either the B1G or SEC would want NC if NC State had to come along too. Could be wrong but that's how I see it. NC? Yes, highly desirable. NC State? Not desirable at all, and too much baggage even to get NC.

That said I agree that NC's approach will be interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if NC is shaken by today's event. FSU could mentally be written off as "well they were always outsider-mercenaries". They could have been thinking well, it's only FSU, let's see if this thing hangs together etc etc.

But Clemson is a Charter Member, was in the room when the league was founded 70 years ago. This shakes the core of the conference, IMO.

Yeah, when Maryland left it was shocking, and actually unexpected. Clemson has been making noise for months* and I’ve been incorporating their potential departure in CFP calculations, so personally I’m not surprised. I know much less than the PTB in NC for whatever that’s worth.


I argue Carolina + State (the argument can even be made to add Dook) is the real value of adding Carolina to any other conference. Other folks don’t really seem to understand it. Just look at the football stadium sizes for a clearer picture. We’re more akin to Texas - aTm or USC - Clemson than Oklahoma - Oklahoma St

*The battle lines were clearly drawn over West Coast expansion.

(03-19-2024 11:22 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Clemson says that no vote was taken by ACC to approve lawsuit vs FSU:

Does the ACC membership language require a vote of members to defend itself?

In that case, if a majority of the members wanted to exit, they could just not allow the ACC to defend the membership contract in court, and they walk out free.
....

Yes, the ACC's by-laws require a vote before this sort of legal action. Courts typically watch things like that. The organisation's own regulations establish the due process procedures that will stick.

Any argument about a conference 'defending itself' runs into this, too: There is no necessity to defend oneself until one is a defendant. That's the catch with any beat-to-the-punch gambit.

And yes, something like the hypothetical situation you describe could happen. If it sounds wild, let's remember that member schools are the conference. The commissioner works for the schools.

(03-19-2024 12:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 12:03 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  Carolina's approach to this will be interesting considering they cannot make the decision to leave the conference without consent from the BOG, which is heavily influenced by NC State. I imagine they can't officially make the argument they can make more money elsewhere without giving consideration to NC State.

Filing jointly with NC State would definitely have seedy undertones, implying tampering by other conferences. This would definitely enforce the belief—much to Bryan's chagrin—that the two are a package deal. Which they should be 1000000%

Can Carolina sue the conference regarding unfair exit penalties etc.? Sure, but the BOG would have to know why they are suing their conference for exit penalties unless they wanted to exit, which circles back to the NC State question of their future and tampering etc.

IMO, there is little chance that either the B1G or SEC would want NC if NC State had to come along too. Could be wrong but that's how I see it. NC? Yes, highly desirable. NC State? Not desirable at all, and too much baggage even to get NC.

That said I agree that NC's approach will be interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if NC is shaken by today's event. FSU could mentally be written off as "well they were always outsider-mercenaries". They could have been thinking well, it's only FSU, let's see if this thing hangs together etc etc.

But Clemson is a Charter Member, was in the room when the league was founded 70 years ago. This shakes the core of the conference, IMO.

Yeah, when Maryland left it was shocking, and actually unexpected. Clemson has been making noise for months* and I’ve been incorporating their potential departure in CFP calculations, so personally I’m not surprised. I know much less than the PTB in NC for whatever that’s worth.


I argue Carolina + State (the argument can even be made to add Dook) is the real value of adding Carolina to any other conference. Other folks don’t really seem to understand it. Just look at the football stadium sizes for a clearer picture. We’re more akin to Texas - aTm or USC - Clemson than Oklahoma - Oklahoma St

*The battle lines were clearly drawn over West Coast expansion.

FWIW, I think NC + Duke is much more attractive to the SEC than is NC + NC State.

Duke has at least two things that are way better than the "SEC average" - elite academics and blue-chip hoops. Yes, their football is nothing, but paradoxically IMO this doesn't really matter to the football-crazy SEC, as the SEC already has plenty of football power. Duke is weak IOWs where the SEC needs the least help. NC State has neither of those things and it's football is also irrelevant to the SEC as well.

All IMO of course.

(03-19-2024 12:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 12:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 12:03 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  Carolina's approach to this will be interesting considering they cannot make the decision to leave the conference without consent from the BOG, which is heavily influenced by NC State. I imagine they can't officially make the argument they can make more money elsewhere without giving consideration to NC State.

Filing jointly with NC State would definitely have seedy undertones, implying tampering by other conferences. This would definitely enforce the belief—much to Bryan's chagrin—that the two are a package deal. Which they should be 1000000%

Can Carolina sue the conference regarding unfair exit penalties etc.? Sure, but the BOG would have to know why they are suing their conference for exit penalties unless they wanted to exit, which circles back to the NC State question of their future and tampering etc.

IMO, there is little chance that either the B1G or SEC would want NC if NC State had to come along too. Could be wrong but that's how I see it. NC? Yes, highly desirable. NC State? Not desirable at all, and too much baggage even to get NC.

That said I agree that NC's approach will be interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if NC is shaken by today's event. FSU could mentally be written off as "well they were always outsider-mercenaries". They could have been thinking well, it's only FSU, let's see if this thing hangs together etc etc.

But Clemson is a Charter Member, was in the room when the league was founded 70 years ago. This shakes the core of the conference, IMO.

Yeah, when Maryland left it was shocking, and actually unexpected. Clemson has been making noise for months* and I’ve been incorporating their potential departure in CFP calculations, so personally I’m not surprised. I know much less than the PTB in NC for whatever that’s worth.


I argue Carolina + State (the argument can even be made to add Dook) is the real value of adding Carolina to any other conference. Other folks don’t really seem to understand it. Just look at the football stadium sizes for a clearer picture. We’re more akin to Texas - aTm or USC - Clemson than Oklahoma - Oklahoma St

*The battle lines were clearly drawn over West Coast expansion.

FWIW, I think NC + Duke is much more attractive to the SEC than is NC + NC State.

Duke has at least two things that are way better than the "SEC average" - elite academics and blue-chip hoops. Yes, their football is nothing, but paradoxically IMO this doesn't really matter to the football-crazy SEC, as the SEC already has plenty of football power. Duke is weak IOWs where the SEC needs the least help. NC State has neither of those things and it's football is irrelevant to the SEC.

All IMO of course.

The fear of many a Tar Heel is what NC State could and would do with an abundance of resources vs what Carolina would do. While we have the same mother, our fathers are quite different.

Carolina couldn’t even sell out a football game vs Notre Dame. I know, I was there and it was pathetic. I was embarrassed because I brought some pals that went to an SEC school. You honestly think that happens in Raleigh? This board used to go nuts about getting State into the SEC.

If a conference can have two schools in Indiana or Mississippi, it can certainly afford two in NC

(03-19-2024 11:26 AM)PlayBall! Wrote:  Now it is real. Not a fan of another great conference getting hammered, but must be a realist.

ESPN now on the clock to announce, definitely, if they will exercise their as-contracted option or not.

It's going exactly according to their plan. I hope the sweetheart Raycom deal "Ninja Swoffard" got for his boy was worth it.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Duke is slippen with out coach K, there 4 seed

anybody remember Indiana, UCLA, UNLV, Temple, MD
I remember them 5 wre locks for NCAAT

It's strange to me how people view the gap between UNC and State to be as wide as other schools that left their in State brothers behind like Oregon vs OSU, Washington vs WSU, OU vs OSU, etc. UNC and State are so much closer overall, and arguably State is the better football program of the 2. State unlike the 2 OSU's and WSU is located in a very large and super fast growing metro area, they are the largest university in the state, and are in the largest state without a team in either of the P2 leagues outside of NY (which the B1G basically has a foothold in with Rutgers). As an ECU fan nothing would make me happier than State getting screwed over and left out completely, but I flat out don't believe that's going to happen.

(03-19-2024 11:15 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:00 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Clemson seems to be asserting that the GOR does not apply after a school exits the conference:

"The media rights to games played at a time when Clemson is not a member of the ACC were never a part of any grant of rights".

Which would make any Grant of Rights worthless.

I don't see that working.

I don't know if it will work or not, but if the argument does stand it does not follow that a grant of rights is 'worthless.'

A grant of rights derives from intellectual property law. When it enables media broadcasts and licensing, it's doing its (legally stated) job. The popularly understood purpose—'golden handcuffs' 'ironclad shackles'—is not its legally stated purpose. The popularly understood purpose may not in fact be legal at all.

That legality is a question these cases are testing. No one wanted to test it before now. That intimidation factor was the real strength of the GoR. Alas, the revenue gap eroded it.

It's as I said here two years ago: The 'sabre-rattling' from schools was no bluff. Someone in the ACC had to try something soon, whatever the odds. Nationally ambitious programs simply cannot afford to bide their time until 2036.

And here we are. The P2/M2 division is now official and the sabres are now crossed.

Exit fees have never been adjudicated (to the best of my knowledge) in collegiate sports and always end up being settled between the parties. We may finally see some case law on the books. In the current environment, I believe these exit fees will be viewed as an estoppel. That the idea that University X has to compensate University Y for leaving is not going to be viewed favorably by the courts, imo. I think this is especially true in scenarios where a university votes against the exit fees and they are foisted upon them by other members of the conference.

The GOR of rights is another matter, I think those are harder to argue for Clemson and FSU, but their best argument is that they signed over a GOR without consideration. Meaning, they signed over for x years but the ESPN contract was for a shorter time period. It's arguable that Clemson and FSU did not receive consideration for their GOR for the ESPN Option years. Imagine a scenario where ESPN does not exercise the option and the TV contract plummets for the ACC, FSU and Clemson would be tied to that anchor. Is it a likely scenario, no, but it is plausible.

It's all messy and maybe everyone settles and there is no case law put in the books, but it would get interesting around the nation if the courts took down all the barriers people put up through the years.

(03-19-2024 12:39 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Duke is slippen with out coach K, there 4 seed

That'$ what happen$ when the Devil$ promote the John Calipari of Tobacco Road.

You have family waiting for you at home, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Notre Dame. Come home.

(03-19-2024 12:29 PM)esayem Wrote:  The fear of many a Tar Heel is what NC State could and would do with an abundance of resources vs what Carolina would do. While we have the same mother, our fathers are quite different.

Carolina couldn’t even sell out a football game vs Notre Dame. I know, I was there and it was pathetic. I was embarrassed because I brought some pals that went to an SEC school. You honestly think that happens in Raleigh? This board used to go nuts about getting State into the SEC.

If a conference can have two schools in Indiana or Mississippi, it can certainly afford two in NC

I'm an outsider to North Carolina. I've been there a handful of times, mainly to Charlotte. I've watched ACC hoops most of my life, but I'm an outsider.

If UNC and NC State have the same mother (I presume the state of North Carolina), who are the different fathers?

I know UNC is the flagship and NC State is the land-grant. Unlike in some other states, the flagship (UNC) is located in the college town while the land-grant (NC State) is located in the capital city.

IMO, as an outsider, if the move is to the SEC, UNC and State belong together. The flagship and the land-grant, with blueblood hoops in Chapel Hill.

(03-19-2024 12:57 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  You have family waiting for you at home, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Notre Dame. Come home.

Leave BC behind, but otherwise cool.

(03-19-2024 12:40 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  It's strange to me how people view the gap between UNC and State to be as wide as other schools that left their in State brothers behind like Oregon vs OSU, Washington vs WSU, OU vs OSU, etc. UNC and State are so much closer overall, and arguably State is the better football program of the 2. State unlike the 2 OSU's and WSU is located in a very large and super fast growing metro area, they are the largest university in the state, and are in the largest state without a team in either of the P2 leagues outside of NY (which the B1G basically has a foothold in with Rutgers). As an ECU fan nothing would make me happier than State getting screwed over and left out completely, but I flat out don't believe that's going to happen.

It's b/c people only think of UNC's basketball brand which is legit elite. NCSU football is a pretty big deal in Raleigh and their basketball brand is probably top 20 or 25 all time. They're just overshadowed by UNC and Duke. I remember when UNC/NCSU and UNC was a bigger rivalry than UNC/Duke. Say that to somebody now (especially outside of NC) and they look at you like you're a lunatic.

(03-19-2024 11:31 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:20 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:14 AM)Glenn360 Wrote:  http://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1...2399414688

Damn, Clemson going after the $140m exit fee by noting that Notre Dame would owe the same fee even though its football isn't part of the ACC deal.

It seems that five ND games are worth the same as eight of Clemson's lol

Give me a night at a Holiday Inn Express and I could put together a presentation justifying Notre DAme's value as a part-time football (and full-time nonfootball) member being close to the average value of the ACC.

Off the top of my head, I'd count up the ABC and ESPN Saturday ACC games, count up how many of those had Notre Dame as the road team. I'd expect if you count ESPN Saturday and ABC appearances, Notre Dame is above the median ACC squad.

Notre DAme gets a full ACC Network share, which tells you something about the value of the "subway alumni" to the ACC Network.

(You may argue that the "subway alumni" are pretty much a thing of the past, etc etc. I point you to the scoreboard of who gets a full ACC Network share despite not playing a full ACC Football schedule)

If that's ACC's argument then ND can sue them also, asking to be paid $40 millions like everyone instead of $17 millions they receive now. That's over $20 millions more per year.

Assuming that eventually some schools will leave the ACC to join one of the P2 conferences, will the cfp shares be adjusted and are there mechanisms in place for that to happen?

(03-19-2024 11:31 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:20 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:14 AM)Glenn360 Wrote:  http://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1...2399414688

Damn, Clemson going after the $140m exit fee by noting that Notre Dame would owe the same fee even though its football isn't part of the ACC deal.

It seems that five ND games are worth the same as eight of Clemson's lol

Give me a night at a Holiday Inn Express and I could put together a presentation justifying Notre DAme's value as a part-time football (and full-time nonfootball) member being close to the average value of the ACC.

Off the top of my head, I'd count up the ABC and ESPN Saturday ACC games, count up how many of those had Notre Dame as the road team. I'd expect if you count ESPN Saturday and ABC appearances, Notre Dame is above the median ACC squad.

Notre DAme gets a full ACC Network share, which tells you something about the value of the "subway alumni" to the ACC Network.

(You may argue that the "subway alumni" are pretty much a thing of the past, etc etc. I point you to the scoreboard of who gets a full ACC Network share despite not playing a full ACC Football schedule)

I read here the other day that ND gets the ACCN in-market rates for Illinois. You could convincingly argue that ND is worth a complete full ACC share even with only 5 Conference games per year. Heck, they might be worth as much to the ACC as FSU or Clemson with only 5 conference games per year if all 5 of their Conference games were part of the ACC ESPN contract.

(03-19-2024 12:20 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:22 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 11:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Clemson says that no vote was taken by ACC to approve lawsuit vs FSU:

Does the ACC membership language require a vote of members to defend itself?

In that case, if a majority of the members wanted to exit, they could just not allow the ACC to defend the membership contract in court, and they walk out free.
....

Yes, the by-laws require a vote before this sort of legal action. Courts typically hold organisations to things like that. The organisation's own regulations establish the due process procedures that will stick.

Any argument about a conference 'defending itself' runs into this, too: There is no necessity to defend oneself until one is a defendant. That's the catch with any beat-to-the-punch gambit.

And yes, something like the hypothetical situation you describe could happen. If it sounds wild, let's remember that member schools are the conference. The commissioner works for the schools.

You’re expressing a legal opinion on ACC by-laws and suggesting this is a known fact. Yet the ACC’s recent filing (which you posted this yesterday; https://csnbbs.com/thread-986767-post-19...id19525899) directly contradicts your current legal opinion. In addition, the ACC filing was based on comments and decision made by the ACC Board’s President…not the commissioner.

Throwing mud at the walls isn’t necessary. Clemson’s lawsuit is more straightforward, without the vitriol.

(03-19-2024 12:58 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 12:57 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  You have family waiting for you at home, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Notre Dame. Come home.

Leave BC behind, but otherwise cool.

As much as I hate BC, getting the Big East back into the Boston market would be great and BC is a great rival for UConn.