(04-19-2024 02:31 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 01:20 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 12:16 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  Everyone seems to have missed "the big one" of the Pac-16 being a go until the last possible second. So that would have been Texas, Tech, A&M, Oklahoma and OSU going to the PAC with Colorado while Utah stayed behind in the MWC. And then who knows what happens to the rump schools, Nebraska was already set on the Big Ten by that point but people were speculating about an emergency tie-up with the Big East for the five remaining schools.

It was looking like:

PAC: Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
B1G: Nebraska
BIG EAST: Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri
MWC (probably): Baylor

Larry Scott went to each Big XII South school minus Baylor to issue invitations to the Pac-10.

The expectation was that each school was going to accept the invitation so Colorado was invited first so Baylor couldn’t maneuver their way to the conference like they did in the Big XII. Baylor was seen as the Texas version of BYU. Too toxic and radioactive for the Pac-10.

Utah was put on hold in case Texas A&M decided to go to the SEC. Kansas was the other option.

Baylor inquired with the TCU and the MWC if they had a spot available for them. The late Kenneth Starr who was the school chancellor made a public announcement letting Baylor students, alumni, donors and fans know that things were not on their favor and to get prepared for a post Big XII world.

When the Big XII was saved and A&M announced they were leaving for the SEC, Baylor did what Baylor does best: they sued the Aggies. They lost.

I loved Larry Scott for handling it this way to ensure Baylor was left behind, that's why I was so bummed when Texas bailed out.

(04-19-2024 05:08 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 12:50 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 12:25 PM)GreenFreakUAB Wrote:  ...well, all you Noles on here could explain how everything went down with the FSU/SEC 'near miss' when they chose the ACC instead... ...of course, the story goes (at least what I've heard over the years) that Bobby B simply didn't want to be in the SEC as it was a tougher football conference than the ACC - hard to argue, especially back in the 80's or whenever the move was made...

Bowden saw an easier path to success in the ACC. FSU's president liked the ACC's academic prestige and certainly wasn't going to go against the preference of a successful and beloved football coach.

Meanwhile, ACC commissioner Gene Corrigan outschmoozed outhustled his SEC counterpart Roy Kramer, who (understandably) assumed FSU was a done deal since the Noles has applied to join the SEC numerous times dating back to the 1950's.

Miami was the backup plan, which bruised the egos of a few UM administrators who weren't convinced the SEC was a good institutional fit in the first place.

South Carolina equaled "Hey those guys are available. Just go get get them and be done with it."

They weren’t really a backup plan, they were to be included in the grand plan involving Texas and aTm. The SEC was UK and the dwarves on the hardwood, and that was important for a cosmopolitan locale like Miami. But you know this..

I’m not sure how you don’t know Miami had been in conversations with the ACC dating back to 1987 and they really prioritized a basketball centric conference for their fledgling program.

Once again, anything to paint the ACC in a bad light. You do seem to know an awful lot about WVU though

South Carolina would be the better fit in the ACC though. It's an outlier as it's the only school without any natural rivals.

(04-19-2024 08:48 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  In the early 1980s, Penn St was 1 vote shy of being added to the Big East. Preferably sourced, but not a requirement, does anyone have any other “almost added” stories of schools being just shy of joining another conference?

Stanford said no to Texas in the 80s. Pac-12 presidents said no to Oklahoma/OSU in 2011? 2012?

USC said no to Houston in the 20s

(04-19-2024 01:00 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 12:16 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  Everyone seems to have missed "the big one" of the Pac-16 being a go until the last possible second. So that would have been Texas, Tech, A&M, Oklahoma and OSU going to the PAC with Colorado while Utah stayed behind in the MWC. And then who knows what happens to the rump schools, Nebraska was already set on the Big Ten by that point but people were speculating about an emergency tie-up with the Big East for the five remaining schools.

As I understood it (and I could be wrong), the Pac-16 was derailed primarily because A&M preferred the SEC to the PAC. If that's the case, I'm somewhat surprised that they didn't simply replace A&M in this lineup with either Utah or Kansas. It would have been a step back, but not a drastic one. A&M was hardly the straw that stirred the drink.

Larry Scott’s plane landed in Lawrence after A&M said no, with invite in hand. In the end issues surrounding the LHN helped kill the deal

(04-21-2024 09:49 AM)orangefan Wrote:  UConn was runner up to Louisville in the competition to replace Maryland in the ACC in 2013. UConn was viewed as having much stronger academics. The desire for a stronger football program ultimately gave Louisville the edge, but both schools were under discussion.

Another terrible move by the ACC. Compare the last 10 years of UCONN vs Louisville. Louisville is perfect for eastern wing of Big 12 with Cincinnati, WVU, and UCF.

(04-21-2024 08:36 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One what if to consider would be if Nebraska had gotten its wish and was accepted to the Big 10 in the early 1900s (likely the teens or early 20s).

The Huskers program likely become a pretty poor one under the Big 10’s higher standards for athlete academics.

It also leaves lots of questions regarding the MVC/Big 6/7/8. Do they still dump Okla St and the private schools? With Oklahoma the dominant force in the league, does it open the possibility that Texas and some of the stronger SWC schools get invited to join the big state schools of the Plains?

Absolutely, no titles for Osborne without playing all the no qualifiers and criminals.

(04-20-2024 03:59 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 03:43 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 02:43 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 08:14 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 07:55 AM)esayem Wrote:  Who has the records?

ACC left all their records with the SoCon, but the Pac absorbed the records of the PCC and AAWU

Split if I'm not mistaken. Basketball records are with the Big East. Football went to the AAC.

I’ve been curious about this before, so I checked out the websites of each conference.

The Big East makes legal claims of all of the old Big East’s history for all sports except for football. It calls Val Ackerman as it’s “fifth” commissioner (1. Dave Gavitt RIP, 2. Mike Tranghese, 3. John Marinatto RIP, 4. Mike Aresco). The Big East owns legally all of the history, branding, and MSG contract of the old charter for everything but football.

Interestingly, going by the AAC’s website, the AAC claims zero Big East history. Not even football. No current conference claims Big East football history at all.

From the AAC website:

“ The American has seen a member school claim a spot in a New Year’s Six bowl eight times in the league’s first 10 football seasons…”

“ The American Athletic Conference, which has established itself as a preeminent NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision conference, enters its second decade poised to continue its remarkable ascension to national prominence.”

The AAC presents itself these days as a new league as of the mid 2010s. It says it is entering its second decade. It calls Tim Pernetti the league’s second commissioner, not its fifth. It’s not claiming to be 45 years old as the Big East is because the settlement after the Big East/AAC split legally makes the AAC the new league and the “new” Big East, old.

The closest the AAC comes to claiming itself to have any history before 2013 is this:

“ Since the conference’s reconstitution in 2013-14…”

The Big East uses similar language on its website:

“The 2023-24 academic year will mark the 11th since the BIG EAST Conference returned to its basketball-centric heritage and a sweeping change in institutional membership. The academic and athletic accomplishments over the previous 10 years have shown that the BIG EAST continues to be a national leader in collegiate athletics.

Since the league's reconfiguration in 2013,”

The Big East does not claim to be the new league. The AAC does. And, legally, according to their legal settlement, claiming it this way is correct.

But it is odd how no one claims Big East football history.

There are ways, of course, in which the old Big East had continuity with the AAC. Aresco was the commissioner of both leagues. The old Big East headquarters became AAC headquarters instantly on July 1,2013. The Big East became a new employer for any staff who went from the old Big East to the new. And so on. So I see where people are coming from when they say the old Big East is the AAC. But that is not how the conferences themselves describe themselves.

The old Cleveland Browns (BE) and Baltimore Ravens (AAC) situation

You really want to get dicey, look up the Big 8 and Missouri Valley

Or the current Arizona Coyotes/NHL Utah agreement.

So pleased that Bettman finally moved the team out of there. Multi-million person DMA that can't support a team. Ridiculous.

(04-20-2024 02:08 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State to be number 12 in the Big 12 instead of Houston. Boise State have more boxes checked than Houston in many areas like tv ratings, football national brand, men's basketball on the rise, fan base that do support their team, not playing second, third or 4th fiddle in their own town, travel partners for BYU and many other things. I did think Big 12 made the wrong vote in adding Houston since the most deserving for a P5 invite was Boise State. All signs were pointing that Boise State was in and Houston was out. BY is too stupid now to see that schools like Boise State, Fresno State, San Diego State and Memphis could make the Big 12 stronger on the field and court. There is no way they could get any ACC teams as long as Notre Dame is still there.

This is blatantly false. Boise State was interviewed and declined very early on. I hope you donate your personal earnings to this school.

(04-20-2024 12:49 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 09:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 08:51 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  VT was close to get a full Big East membership in 1995 but had to wait until 2000.

Cuse was close to get an invitation from the ACC in 2004 but had to wait until 2014

UL was vying for the last Big 12 membership in 2012. WVU got in and Louisville headed to the ACC in 2014 instead.

UConn was probably close to get an invitation from the B12 if some or all of 4C schools stayed. Yormark also wanted Gonzaga but didn’t get enough support.

UL was #11 in the Big 12 in 2012 if they could have agreed on a #12. They couldn't.

Who were they considering? Cincinnati? USF? BYU?

Seems like BYU was a no go for a number of non-athletic reasons. They were looking at anybody else and didn't find anyone.

You think? For the PAC absolutely a no-go but the Big 12 had Baylor so I don't think there could have been a morality issue.

(04-19-2024 09:36 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Looking back at what was going on in 1990, it would have been interesting if these moves occurred:

Texas and Colorado to the PAC 10

TAMU and Arkansas to the SEC

Would the Big 10 have felt threatened enough by these moves to add a 12th, even if it wasn’t ND?

What happens to SC? Does instate politics get them a seat in the ACC like it did VT?

How do the Big 8 and SWC react to their losses? Does the Big 8-1 look to some of the 6 remaining SWC schools to boost their numbers?

Thilese would have been the better moves too. A&M was much more deserving than South Carolina who had no connection to the conference.
I think the ACC would have been fine taking them in as #10 with FSU coming too.

(04-21-2024 09:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-21-2024 08:36 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One what if to consider would be if Nebraska had gotten its wish and was accepted to the Big 10 in the early 1900s (likely the teens or early 20s).

The Huskers program likely become a pretty poor one under the Big 10’s higher standards for athlete academics.

It also leaves lots of questions regarding the MVC/Big 6/7/8. Do they still dump Okla St and the private schools? With Oklahoma the dominant force in the league, does it open the possibility that Texas and some of the stronger SWC schools get invited to join the big state schools of the Plains?

Oklahoma would have joined the SWC, which was always a threat if the Big 8 didn’t bend to their whim.

Oklahoma joined the MVC in 1920 and Oklahoma St did in 1925. Being with those Midwestern land grants and flagships was considered more prestigious than affiliation with the Texas schools at the time. I’m thinking some sort of reorganization of the best SWC and best MVC programs occurs:

Iowa St
Missouri
Kansas
Kansas St
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St
Arkansas
Texas
Texas A&M

Hawaii was almost added to the MWC (for all sports) a couple of years after the conference was founded in 1999.

Initially UH president Ken Mortimer had been on the warpath against the newly-formed MWC, and was championing the concept of the WAC filing a breach-of-trust lawsuit against the schools that had defected to create it.

However that effort went nowhere, and when Mortimer's tenure ended in 2001, his replacement Evan Dobelle was more interested in joining than fighting the MWC. There were rumors at the time that the original eight MWC members were interested in expanding the conference to ten, and that Fresno State and Hawaii were potential targets. Dobelle later confirmed that Hawaii did in fact receive an MWC invitation, but he turned it down because it was conditioned on UH paying travel subsidies, which the university had succeeded in getting the WAC to drop back in 1994.

In retrospect that was a huge mistake, as in 2010 Hawaii ended up agreeing to pay travel subsidies anyhow (to both the MWC and the Big West) in order to escape the disintegrating WAC.

A big one we all missed: UNLV to the WAC circa 1980. After the Arizona schools left, SDSU, UNLV, Hawaii, and Air Force were to be brought in over the next few year. Part of UNLV’s entrance requirement was to build a new basketball arena by a certain year. When they failed to get it done, they were dropped. It’s a unique situation because they were playing WAC schedules in the early 80’s.

FAMU was moving to the Sun Belt, even had the billboards around town announcing the move.

(04-21-2024 08:43 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  FAMU was moving to the Sun Belt, even had the billboards around town announcing the move.

Didn’t that change of heart involve not being allowed to stockpile redshirts and transfers like they thought they could?

It definitely would have been interesting to see the Rattlers move up. Maybe it paves the way for other HBCUs like Jackson St, Tenn St, and NC A&T to make similar moves. We might have a C-USA or SBC today with 4-6 HBCUs in it.

(04-21-2024 08:43 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  FAMU was moving to the Sun Belt, even had the billboards around town announcing the move.

FAMU was moving FBS.

They wanted to join the Sun Belt. There was some real interest. FAMU has good fan support, good brand name, panhandle location nice for travel, hosting first HBCU to make the jump.

It got to the point of a site visit. It did not go well. Administration did not have a handle on the increased costs and were budgeting a good bit less, looking at the books there was concern they could handle the budget needs, compliance office was inexperienced and understaffed with no plans to expand, facilities weren't up to par.

Never got to the point of voting on expansion after that.

(04-21-2024 09:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-21-2024 08:43 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  FAMU was moving to the Sun Belt, even had the billboards around town announcing the move.

Didn’t that change of heart involve not being allowed to stockpile redshirts and transfers like they thought they could?

It definitely would have been interesting to see the Rattlers move up. Maybe it paves the way for other HBCUs like Jackson St, Tenn St, and NC A&T to make similar moves. We might have a C-USA or SBC today with 4-6 HBCUs in it.

That was a factor, they brought in a number of transfers expecting they'd be immediately eligible but because they had declared they were under FBS rules and had to sit.

Budget was the big problem, the leadership seriously under-estimated the costs and they had some internal budget issues.

I feel like eventually there will be a couple HBCUs move up.

There was a group in Mobile that wanted to get a bowl game there who actually tried to get it to happen back when the NCAA was tight about issuing bowl permits. The fast-track was to host a conference champion.

When the Big West booted Arkansas State, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech, and Northern Illinois the group in Mobile put together a meeting for A-State, Louisiana, and Louisiana Tech with as I recall, Jackson State, Southern, FAMU, and I think Grambling and maybe Alabama State, and Texas Southern. Hoping that the three FBS Sun Belt schools with no football home could anchor a league and fill in with some mix of HBCUs. I think everyone had a nice time but there simply wasn't any serious interest on the part of anyone other than maybe FAMU who later started the reclassification process for a year.

(04-21-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 03:41 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 01:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 07:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 07:05 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  Well, I read it on wikipedia, which cites SUathletics, though reading that article they actually say the same as you, that they were considered but the "Boston slot" went to BC instead, versus Rutgers who actually declined the invite.

Right.

(04-19-2024 09:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  I've heard it many places. They originally wanted Holy Cross who had a big time basketball history.

It’s been perpetuated over the years without a true source. Going back to the details of the Big East’s formation, Holy Cross and URI did not receive invitations. Maybe their president was cold to the idea—he was about 1-A football—but they never received an invitation.

Now they did receive one to the A10 in the 80’s, but it was declined and went to St. Joe’s. A terrible decision IMO

There are sources.

https://thebarkingcrow.com/holy-cross-wa...-big-east/
"...Something I was unaware of before today was that Holy Cross was once a candidate to join the Big East. And not in an ancient history sense. This wasn’t during the Knute Rockne era of college sports. The Big East wasn’t established until 1979, and at that time, Holy Cross was at the very least under consideration (Syracuse’s longtime Athletic Director Jake Crouthamel wrote in 2000 that Holy Cross wasn’t invited, but it seems the decision was at the very least mutual, judging by the existence of academic literature on the subject characterizing the story as Holy Cross “declining” the Big East). It didn’t happen. Holy Cross is in the Patriot League.

The rationale for Holy Cross not joining the Big East, on Holy Cross’s side, was academic (per afore-linked academic literature, above). College sports were changing, and the Big East was about chasing grandeur in that arena. Decisionmakers at Holy Cross believed joining would force them to sacrifice some of their academic mission...."

Holy Cross had an NCAA title, final 4, 6 total NCAAs and 9 NITs through the 70s. BC had 4 NCAAs and 4 NITs and no final 4s.

In addition to the Wiki mentioned by the other poster, these articles also mentions it, although doesn't state the source:
https://www.grottonetwork.com/stories/bi...c-colleges

https://i80sportsblog.com/when-the-east-...asketball/

Jake is correct, and a primary source. Everything else is not backed up and I’m not sure where it started. The “academic literature” doesn’t even have a primary source backing it up! I know because I’ve actually wasted time reading it trying to find one!

The Big East never invited Holy Cross and they never turned down the Big East. I do believe they were under consideration, but ultimately BC got the “Boston” spot. I believe I even read BC, HC, UConn, and URI formed an informal pact to stick together and then the Big East came calling.

To piggyback on this:

May 19 1979
“An awful lot of schools have expressed an interest in joining but I’d really rather not say what schools we’re considering” Gavitt told Gannett News Service.
He did say though that a selection committee met last week in a hotel near LaGuardia Airport in New York and that four schools apparently attended the session — Boston College, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Seton Hall — all strong East basketball schools.
Other schools rumored to be under strong consideration are Holy Cross and Temple likewise perennially among the regional cage elite.
“We weren’t invited to the meeting and I can’t understand why” Holy Cross athletic director Ron Perry fumed “I’d have to say we’re very interested in joining and I feel we’re a natural for this group I think we could add a lot to the league.”
Most speculation is that an eight-team league is envisioned though there is some sentiment for a 10-team loop.
“I understand it will be an eight-team setup but we (Holy Cross) favored a ten-team league with two divisions” Perry said. “I know we were being considered but I don’t understand why we didn’t receive a formal invitation to the meeting”
Temple wasn’t invited either, but Owl athletic director Ernie Casale did not seem nearly as upset as Perry


The best part is this prophetic quote by Jim Valvano, then AD/Coach at Iona:

“I feel we have a better basketball program than Seton Hall. My feeling is Seton Hall got a bid because of the Meadowlands. I have a sneaky feeling it’s because they’re close to a desirable facility.
“And you watch; in two years, after it has the automatic bid, Rutgers will jump over. You watch. Rutgers will want a piece of that.”
No way, Rutgers athletic director red Gruninger responded “We’re committed to the Eastern Eight”.

Interesting, but you didn't link a source for your quote.

(04-21-2024 10:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-21-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 03:41 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 01:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 07:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  Right.


It’s been perpetuated over the years without a true source. Going back to the details of the Big East’s formation, Holy Cross and URI did not receive invitations. Maybe their president was cold to the idea—he was about 1-A football—but they never received an invitation.

Now they did receive one to the A10 in the 80’s, but it was declined and went to St. Joe’s. A terrible decision IMO

There are sources.

https://thebarkingcrow.com/holy-cross-wa...-big-east/
"...Something I was unaware of before today was that Holy Cross was once a candidate to join the Big East. And not in an ancient history sense. This wasn’t during the Knute Rockne era of college sports. The Big East wasn’t established until 1979, and at that time, Holy Cross was at the very least under consideration (Syracuse’s longtime Athletic Director Jake Crouthamel wrote in 2000 that Holy Cross wasn’t invited, but it seems the decision was at the very least mutual, judging by the existence of academic literature on the subject characterizing the story as Holy Cross “declining” the Big East). It didn’t happen. Holy Cross is in the Patriot League.

The rationale for Holy Cross not joining the Big East, on Holy Cross’s side, was academic (per afore-linked academic literature, above). College sports were changing, and the Big East was about chasing grandeur in that arena. Decisionmakers at Holy Cross believed joining would force them to sacrifice some of their academic mission...."

Holy Cross had an NCAA title, final 4, 6 total NCAAs and 9 NITs through the 70s. BC had 4 NCAAs and 4 NITs and no final 4s.

In addition to the Wiki mentioned by the other poster, these articles also mentions it, although doesn't state the source:
https://www.grottonetwork.com/stories/bi...c-colleges

https://i80sportsblog.com/when-the-east-...asketball/

Jake is correct, and a primary source. Everything else is not backed up and I’m not sure where it started. The “academic literature” doesn’t even have a primary source backing it up! I know because I’ve actually wasted time reading it trying to find one!

The Big East never invited Holy Cross and they never turned down the Big East. I do believe they were under consideration, but ultimately BC got the “Boston” spot. I believe I even read BC, HC, UConn, and URI formed an informal pact to stick together and then the Big East came calling.

To piggyback on this:

May 19 1979
“An awful lot of schools have expressed an interest in joining but I’d really rather not say what schools we’re considering” Gavitt told Gannett News Service.
He did say though that a selection committee met last week in a hotel near LaGuardia Airport in New York and that four schools apparently attended the session — Boston College, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Seton Hall — all strong East basketball schools.
Other schools rumored to be under strong consideration are Holy Cross and Temple likewise perennially among the regional cage elite.
“We weren’t invited to the meeting and I can’t understand why” Holy Cross athletic director Ron Perry fumed “I’d have to say we’re very interested in joining and I feel we’re a natural for this group I think we could add a lot to the league.”
Most speculation is that an eight-team league is envisioned though there is some sentiment for a 10-team loop.
“I understand it will be an eight-team setup but we (Holy Cross) favored a ten-team league with two divisions” Perry said. “I know we were being considered but I don’t understand why we didn’t receive a formal invitation to the meeting”
Temple wasn’t invited either, but Owl athletic director Ernie Casale did not seem nearly as upset as Perry


The best part is this prophetic quote by Jim Valvano, then AD/Coach at Iona:

“I feel we have a better basketball program than Seton Hall. My feeling is Seton Hall got a bid because of the Meadowlands. I have a sneaky feeling it’s because they’re close to a desirable facility.
“And you watch; in two years, after it has the automatic bid, Rutgers will jump over. You watch. Rutgers will want a piece of that.”
No way, Rutgers athletic director red Gruninger responded “We’re committed to the Eastern Eight”.

Interesting, but you didn't link a source for your quote.

New Eastern Cage Loop In Works

It seems like URI’s invite got put on ice while they tried to get a Philadelphia school. I wonder what the impetus for having 8 as opposed to 10 was.

Imagine if big conferences were en vogue back then—you might have something wild like this if the eastern powers could all get along.

BC
UMass
Providence
URI
UConn
Syracuse
St. John’s

Rutgers
Seton Hall
Villanova
Temple
Penn St
Pitt
Georgetown