(08-13-2009 11:47 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Frank
I dont doubt that the BigTen has teams that travel well, but the reality is that they are NOT attractive to the general population in Jacksonville, specially if they would go head to head vs Capital One bowl with an SEC team playing.
As I said if its Ohio State, Penn State or Michigan those are teams that have a national following. Wisconsin, Iowa travel well but would do ZIPPO to excite the Jacksonville community. If the gator gets stuck with Purdue or Northwestern its a bad fiasco. I dont see the gator upping their payout to end up with BigTen 4-5

But with the B10 losing the Alamo, the Gator probably won't have to up its payout to get a Big 10 team.

wrong
Right now even losing Alamo
#2-3 Capital One 4.375 mill
#3-4 Outback 3.2 mill
#4-5 Gator 2.375 mill

So thats where they would be if no oneelse steps up and there are rumors Insight Bowl will increase its pay for bigten. So who knows but right now a #4-5 would be what they would get and as I said thats not a good deal if they go at same time of SEC vs #2-3 BigTen in Capital one

By the way the gator getting the bigTen would probably open the Champs bowl for Big East.

(08-13-2009 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:46 AM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:43 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  While I do agree with you that the BigTen could be in the picture with their #4-#5 the reality is that for the gator is not worth the gamble of increase pay. jacksonville is SEC territory a Big Ten team is NOT that attractive to the general population unless you get Ohio State or Michigan.
Iowa and Wisconsin travel well but they wouldnt be draws for the general population. I gurantee you that if the Gator ends up with a BigTen or Big 12 (4-5 selection) it will not last past that 4 year period because they will suffer at the gate. The SEC is their big goal

From the Gator's perspective they consider the Big Ten #4 > than the Big East #2.

Yes, the Florida bowls (and their host cities) LOVE the Big 10 teams because they bring in OUT-OF-TOWN snowbirds in large numbers.

Ideally, a Florida bowl wants an SEC anchor, and then a Big 10 team, followed by a Big 12 team. But if the Gator can't get the SEC, a Big 10/Big 12 matchup looks much more appealing than Big 12/Big East.

As you note, the Big 10 will NOT be a net loser in this post-Alamo reshuffling. They are too big and travel too well. Someone else will be booted out of a similar-sized bowl to make room, and that could be the Big East.

When Big East honchos talk about negotiating bowl deals from a "position of strength", i wonder what planet they are broadcasting from ..

Are you sure you are an USF fan? All you seem to do is bash the BE. As for which is more appealing, I think BE has proven it will bring some fans to a FLA bowl. If Gator goes to the B10 or whoever, Champ bowl is open for the BE.

(08-13-2009 01:30 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:46 AM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:43 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  While I do agree with you that the BigTen could be in the picture with their #4-#5 the reality is that for the gator is not worth the gamble of increase pay. jacksonville is SEC territory a Big Ten team is NOT that attractive to the general population unless you get Ohio State or Michigan.
Iowa and Wisconsin travel well but they wouldnt be draws for the general population. I gurantee you that if the Gator ends up with a BigTen or Big 12 (4-5 selection) it will not last past that 4 year period because they will suffer at the gate. The SEC is their big goal

From the Gator's perspective they consider the Big Ten #4 > than the Big East #2.

Yes, the Florida bowls (and their host cities) LOVE the Big 10 teams because they bring in OUT-OF-TOWN snowbirds in large numbers.

Ideally, a Florida bowl wants an SEC anchor, and then a Big 10 team, followed by a Big 12 team. But if the Gator can't get the SEC, a Big 10/Big 12 matchup looks much more appealing than Big 12/Big East.

As you note, the Big 10 will NOT be a net loser in this post-Alamo reshuffling. They are too big and travel too well. Someone else will be booted out of a similar-sized bowl to make room, and that could be the Big East.

When Big East honchos talk about negotiating bowl deals from a "position of strength", i wonder what planet they are broadcasting from ..

Are you sure you are an USF fan? All you seem to do is bash the BE. As for which is more appealing, I think BE has proven it will bring some fans to a FLA bowl. If Gator goes to the B10 or whoever, Champ bowl is open for the BE.

Fact is, if the Big East was as appealing to bowls as fans here claim,then why are the tie-ins so bad? I'll give Marinatto the benefit of the doubt for now, but if he's unable to enhance the bowl package this time around then it's time to realize that the Big East is not at the top of anyone's wish list when it comes to bowls.

I agree that a Big East #4 will not be as attractive as BigTen or Big 12 #4. But sorry you are in big denial if you dont realize that a BE#2 with ND one year would trump the Big10 or Big12 #4 deals specially for a Florida bowl.
You are talking about almost guaranteed in a 4 year period to land
1. Notre Dame
2. West Virginia
3. USF ( which would bring large numbers to a Florida bowl vs BCS opponent)
4. Any of the 8 BE schools.

The bump-in-the-road seems to be whether they get ND once or twice.

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  The bump-in-the-road seems to be whether they get ND once or twice.

Anything more than once is a NO GO, and I support the commish on that one.

(08-13-2009 01:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  I agree that a Big East #4 will not be as attractive as BigTen or Big 12 #4. But sorry you are in big denial if you dont realize that a BE#2 with ND one year would trump the Big10 or Big12 #4 deals specially for a Florida bowl.
You are talking about almost guaranteed in a 4 year period to land
1. Notre Dame
2. West Virginia
3. USF ( which would bring large numbers to a Florida bowl vs BCS opponent)
4. Any of the 8 BE schools.

The Gator has this arrangement and it appears that they can't ditch it fast enough. They took Texas Tech (never known for its traveling fan base) over the Big East 2 years ago.

(08-13-2009 01:43 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  I agree that a Big East #4 will not be as attractive as BigTen or Big 12 #4. But sorry you are in big denial if you dont realize that a BE#2 with ND one year would trump the Big10 or Big12 #4 deals specially for a Florida bowl.
You are talking about almost guaranteed in a 4 year period to land
1. Notre Dame
2. West Virginia
3. USF ( which would bring large numbers to a Florida bowl vs BCS opponent)
4. Any of the 8 BE schools.

The Gator has this arrangement and it appears that they can't ditch it fast enough. They took Texas Tech (never known for its traveling fan base) over the Big East 2 years ago.

Correct and they got BURNED because Tech brought and drew flies to the gator. You want to compare numbers of the two years of UL,WV vs Nebraska and Tech and youll see the BE was the better deal.

(08-13-2009 11:47 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Frank
I dont doubt that the BigTen has teams that travel well, but the reality is that they are NOT attractive to the general population in Jacksonville, specially if they would go head to head vs Capital One bowl with an SEC team playing.
As I said if its Ohio State, Penn State or Michigan those are teams that have a national following. Wisconsin, Iowa travel well but would do ZIPPO to excite the Jacksonville community. If the gator gets stuck with Purdue or Northwestern its a bad fiasco. I dont see the gator upping their payout to end up with BigTen 4-5

We'll just have to disagree here. Outside of Indiana and maybe Northwestern (who still sent a ton of fans and alums to the Alamo Bowl last season), the Big Ten travels well from top-to-bottom, which is why I believe that you'll see all of the bowls with open slots fighting over that tie-in. I don't think it matters much whether or not the local Jacksonville community gets excited about a particular team - part of the whole point of why the bowl system is so entrenched is that those games are essentially vehicles for local tourism boards that have a vested interest in getting the maximum number of tourists into town for a week. Do the local Orlando or Tampa communities really care which Big Ten team comes to town for their bowls in terms of "excitement", as well? Not really, but that's missing the point. All of the Florida bowls (along with ticket scalpers) might like having the Florida Gators for a game from a pure ticket selling perspective, but all of the other local entities that have an interest in the bowl game (i.e. hotels, restaurants, airport services, cab companies, bars, etc.) would be better off if a Wisconsin-type school (much less a Michigan or Ohio State) with tons of traveling fans comes to town and infuses a lot of outside tourism dollars. Even if we use the "local community" argument, there are already more Big Ten alums that live in Jacksonville and Florida in general than San Antonio. Peruse the alumni directory of any Big Ten school and you'll find that Florida is the #1 home to their alums outside of the Midwest - there are enough Big Ten alums in that state to support several bowl games even if people don't travel in from the Midwest. As a result, for all intents and purposes, the Big Ten has as much or even more drawing power in Florida bowl games than the ACC.

I'm not saying that the Gator Bowl would pick a Big Ten tie-in over an equivalent SEC tie-in. However, if we're talking about a Big Ten #4 or #5 with no option for an SEC tie-in, that's more valuable to the Gator Bowl than a Big 12 #4 or #5 or a pure Big East #2. If the Gator Bowl has the option to take ND every year, then a Big East #2/ND hybrid might trump a Big Ten #4/#5 (although that's not necessarily a guarantee simply because the Big Ten is a "safe" bet in terms of always drawing a reputable traveling fan base at the #4 or #5 spot, while the Gator Bowl has consistently shown that the only Big East team that it is ever somewhat interested in is West Virginia). I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

(08-13-2009 11:36 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Ideally, a Florida bowl wants an SEC anchor, and then a Big 10 team, followed by a Big 12 team.

Disagree...especially if its the 5th or 6th placed team in the Big 12.

If the Big East "reforms" into a new football conf...that might give their #2 and even #3 pick more valuable to any FLA Bowl...especially compared to a 4th-6th place team from the Big 12.

Big 12 "lost" the Tangerine/Champs Sports Bowl slot to very bad traveling attendance.

As noted...FLA is basically home to SEC and ACC Bowl Games...with Big East hopefully holding onto a some share (or all of it) of the Gator Bowl...as the Big East can't afford to be stuck with just the St Pete Bowl (unknown future...while Gator Bowl will most certainly be around) in FLA.

Champs was a double hex. First, it was PreXmas. Second, it took a lower ranked conference team where fans are not going to travel hundreds of miles to watch their 7-5 or 6-6 team. I can understand the frustration that happens at times...but let's be honest with the circumstances and situation around the bowls. Every BCS conference tries to put its lower bowls within driving distance.

(08-13-2009 01:45 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:43 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  I agree that a Big East #4 will not be as attractive as BigTen or Big 12 #4. But sorry you are in big denial if you dont realize that a BE#2 with ND one year would trump the Big10 or Big12 #4 deals specially for a Florida bowl.
You are talking about almost guaranteed in a 4 year period to land
1. Notre Dame
2. West Virginia
3. USF ( which would bring large numbers to a Florida bowl vs BCS opponent)
4. Any of the 8 BE schools.

The Gator has this arrangement and it appears that they can't ditch it fast enough. They took Texas Tech (never known for its traveling fan base) over the Big East 2 years ago.

Correct and they got BURNED because Tech brought and drew flies to the gator. You want to compare numbers of the two years of UL,WV vs Nebraska and Tech and youll see the BE was the better deal.

And still the Gator is hesitant to reup with the Big East...why?

(08-13-2009 01:50 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:45 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:43 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  I agree that a Big East #4 will not be as attractive as BigTen or Big 12 #4. But sorry you are in big denial if you dont realize that a BE#2 with ND one year would trump the Big10 or Big12 #4 deals specially for a Florida bowl.
You are talking about almost guaranteed in a 4 year period to land
1. Notre Dame
2. West Virginia
3. USF ( which would bring large numbers to a Florida bowl vs BCS opponent)
4. Any of the 8 BE schools.

The Gator has this arrangement and it appears that they can't ditch it fast enough. They took Texas Tech (never known for its traveling fan base) over the Big East 2 years ago.

Correct and they got BURNED because Tech brought and drew flies to the gator. You want to compare numbers of the two years of UL,WV vs Nebraska and Tech and youll see the BE was the better deal.

And still the Gator is hesitant to reup with the Big East...why?

why? Because they want the SEC or ND twice. Thats why. You know I hope to God that they sign Big12 or BigTen #4-5 because Ill laugh my ass when they get similar results like they did with Texas Tech

(08-13-2009 01:49 PM)Tallgrass Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 11:36 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Ideally, a Florida bowl wants an SEC anchor, and then a Big 10 team, followed by a Big 12 team.

Disagree...especially if its the 5th or 6th placed team in the Big 12.

If the Big East "reforms" into a new football conf...that might give their #2 and even #3 pick more valuable to any FLA Bowl...especially compared to a 4th-6th place team from the Big 12.

Big 12 "lost" the Tangerine/Champs Sports Bowl slot to very bad traveling attendance.

As noted...FLA is basically home to SEC and ACC Bowl Games...with Big East hopefully holding onto a some share (or all of it) of the Gator Bowl...as the Big East can't afford to be stuck with just the St Pete Bowl (unknown future...while Gator Bowl will most certainly be around) in FLA.

Champs was a double hex. First, it was PreXmas. Second, it took a lower ranked conference team where fans are not going to travel hundreds of miles to watch their 7-5 or 6-6 team. I can understand the frustration that happens at times...but let's be honest with the circumstances and situation around the bowls. Every BCS conference tries to put its lower bowls within driving distance.

BINGO!!!!! and thats what im trying to tell you that a Big Ten #5 or Big12 #5 traveling to Jax as an 8-4 or 7-5 team will NOT be a huge draw to the locals and will not be bringing 15k+ to the city.

(08-13-2009 01:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

I think if they could get the Irish half the time, they would jump at that, and take their chances with Rutgers, UConn or whoever the other half.

but 1x4... I don't think the Gator is feeling it.

(08-13-2009 01:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 11:47 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Frank
I dont doubt that the BigTen has teams that travel well, but the reality is that they are NOT attractive to the general population in Jacksonville, specially if they would go head to head vs Capital One bowl with an SEC team playing.
As I said if its Ohio State, Penn State or Michigan those are teams that have a national following. Wisconsin, Iowa travel well but would do ZIPPO to excite the Jacksonville community. If the gator gets stuck with Purdue or Northwestern its a bad fiasco. I dont see the gator upping their payout to end up with BigTen 4-5

We'll just have to disagree here. Outside of Indiana and maybe Northwestern (who still sent a ton of fans and alums to the Alamo Bowl last season), the Big Ten travels well from top-to-bottom, which is why I believe that you'll see all of the bowls with open slots fighting over that tie-in. I don't think it matters much whether or not the local Jacksonville community gets excited about a particular team - part of the whole point of why the bowl system is so entrenched is that those games are essentially vehicles for local tourism boards that have a vested interest in getting the maximum number of tourists into town for a week. Do the local Orlando or Tampa communities really care which Big Ten team comes to town for their bowls in terms of "excitement", as well? Not really, but that's missing the point. All of the Florida bowls (along with ticket scalpers) might like having the Florida Gators for a game from a pure ticket selling perspective, but all of the other local entities that have an interest in the bowl game (i.e. hotels, restaurants, airport services, cab companies, bars, etc.) would be better off if a Wisconsin-type school (much less a Michigan or Ohio State) with tons of traveling fans comes to town and infuses a lot of outside tourism dollars. Even if we use the "local community" argument, there are already more Big Ten alums that live in Jacksonville and Florida in general than San Antonio. Peruse the alumni directory of any Big Ten school and you'll find that Florida is the #1 home to their alums outside of the Midwest - there are enough Big Ten alums in that state to support several bowl games even if people don't travel in from the Midwest. As a result, for all intents and purposes, the Big Ten has as much or even more drawing power in Florida bowl games than the ACC.

I'm not saying that the Gator Bowl would pick a Big Ten tie-in over an equivalent SEC tie-in. However, if we're talking about a Big Ten #4 or #5 with no option for an SEC tie-in, that's more valuable to the Gator Bowl than a Big 12 #4 or #5 or a pure Big East #2. If the Gator Bowl has the option to take ND every year, then a Big East #2/ND hybrid might trump a Big Ten #4/#5 (although that's not necessarily a guarantee simply because the Big Ten is a "safe" bet in terms of always drawing a reputable traveling fan base at the #4 or #5 spot, while the Gator Bowl has consistently shown that the only Big East team that it is ever somewhat interested in is West Virginia). I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

You also seem to forget FLA is also a traveling destination for many northern BE schools like UCONN and RU. I believe both could easily bring over 15K to a FLA bowl against a quality BCS opponent. Gator got screwed when they took Texas Tech from the B12. If they want to go with the B12 or a 7-5 B10 team, let them. I am sorry I don't see how that can be more attractive than a ranked #2 BE school.

(08-13-2009 02:00 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

I think if they could get the Irish half the time, they would jump at that, and take their chances with Rutgers, UConn or whoever the other half.

but 1x4... I don't think the Gator is feeling it.

Me neither. They, like the Sun Bowl, would rather have a 6-6 Notre Dame than any Big East squad.

(08-13-2009 02:03 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 02:00 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

I think if they could get the Irish half the time, they would jump at that, and take their chances with Rutgers, UConn or whoever the other half.

but 1x4... I don't think the Gator is feeling it.

Me neither. They, like the Sun Bowl, would rather have a 6-6 Notre Dame than any Big East squad.

and most if not all Big12 bowls would choice ND over any Big12#2 not called Texas

(08-13-2009 02:03 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 02:00 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't think that a Big East #2 with the option to only take ND every other year or every 4 years would trump a Big Ten #4/#5.

I think if they could get the Irish half the time, they would jump at that, and take their chances with Rutgers, UConn or whoever the other half.

but 1x4... I don't think the Gator is feeling it.

Me neither. They, like the Sun Bowl, would rather have a 6-6 Notre Dame than any Big East squad.

Perception changes over time. UC, UCONN and RU all have proved they can bring fans and travel. UL and WVU also bring a ton of fans. That's 5 BE teams that can bring some fans to a bowl. A FLA bowl is also more attractive than a bowl in Canada or in Alabama. I hope the BE will stand its ground and go after a top tier FLA bowl hard. ND once every 4 years is the only acceptable way.