(02-16-2018 02:55 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 12:36 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:59 AM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:17 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:59 AM)450bench Wrote:  Getting back to being a top 25 program, planning for NCAA tournaments, recruiting top100 talent, at minimum, and keeping most of the hometown talent home.
Memphis has a tradition of winning and talent and you can’t take away Cal or Kirk or Finch or Bartow or any other period for the sake of discussion. They all contributed to the programs success and tradition.

Then let's not take away Dean Ehlers, Moe Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, Johnny Jones, the probations associated with Kirk & Calipari - it's all part.

I too would love to have Calipari's last 4 yrs continuously & all the good that goes with it - without the NCAA probation. That said, Memphis historically is a .668 % win team. That's about 20 wins per season on avg. with a 30 game schedule & we've been to the NCAA 25 times in 64 seasons - including Calipar's last 4 yrs. Take those 4 yrs (well above avg) out, sub the historical avg & Memphis is at about .63 % & 21 NCAA appearances. Or maybe take out the years associated with probation.

Several other things. Memphis is currently playing a schedule (and have for several yrs) well below the historical Memphis SOS. That hurts consideration for the NCAA tourney & weakens the value of wins. This same dumbed-down schedule approach also hurts attendance. And regardless, the current criteria for NCAA tourney selection disadvantages a 20 win team playing a weak SOS schedule in favor of other weak conference champions. Relative to attendance, Calipari yrs were likely not the norm even for a winning Memphis program. Likely something approaching 12-14K is more likely given the increased competition for the entertainment $$. I don't care much about recruiting rankings & don't understand the obsessive addiction. It's the results that matter IMO, is Memphis competing, is Memphis winning. Sure recruiting is an indicator, but if it's the end-all, then Calipari should be fired at UK, he is severely underachieving. This thread is about be real, right?

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Every sports team at every level ebbs and flows throughout history... Historically Memphis is not a team that misses the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Historically we are not a team that can compete with top 25 teams. Historically we are not a program that lauds beating a 15-11 team down their two best players as a good and celebrated win.

You can set your bar based on the down years and be satisfied with Tubby so long as he performs at that level. The rest of fan base expects us to be competitive program on a consistent basis.

And to be fair. Legitimately, the only time I see people use the Cal era in any comparative form is when it is poster like you saying other fans have unreasonable expectations based on the Cal era. I never actually see fans saying they expect Tubby or JP (when he was here) perform at the same level. Nobody actually expects us to consistently win more games than any other NCAA program over a 4 year period or be competing for an NCAA title every year. So, stop with that lame argument.

To be fair - you either can't read or your bias is so great you read things that aren't said - and you attribute things that aren't said or implied. I simply stated the historical performance of the Memphis program - and made NO concluding, therefore-type statements about what it means. I didn't set the bar anywhere, again simply stated the historical averages for consideration by those reading this thread - a thread on being realist LOL. Further, I've made NO argument & no statement that says, "Historically Memphis is not a team that misses the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Historically we are not a team that can compete with top 25 teams. Historically we are not a program that lauds beating a 15-11 team down their two best players as a good and celebrated win." It's YOU making those statements, claims & drawing those conclusions & attributing them to me - they aren't mine. And BTW, Memphis is not, based upon historical averages, a school that recruited annually, multiple top 100 players, prior to Calipari. Maybe it happened but it is not supported by historical averages. Memphis historically recruited Memphis with an occasional exception. So Memphis' teams ebbed & flowed (in terms of wins) based upon Memphis talent (especially as relates to local big men). Today Memphis, the city's talent, is recruited nationally not just by Memphis. Sure I want Memphis to get a tourney invite every year but historically it's about 1 in 3 yrs. - with 2-3 of periods of 10 yrs or more without an invite & several periods where we had consecutive invites (the up years). And BTW, IMO with Memphis in the AAC, tourney invites are tougher to get than ever. Because the way Memphis is scheduling, unless Memphis wins the AAC or the AAC tourney, we will likely not have enough quality wins to get that invite unless we are close (like a UH type year) with a couple of in-conference quality wins.

But rather than falsely attribute some lowered expectations to me, why not look at the historical performance averages - and then compare your expectations to actual history. Oh and don't forget the probation years.......cheers.

You should try reading comprehension before you claim others do not have it...

You read his whole post? Kudos!

Absence of white space in a diatribe is hard to take. lol

He’s gone at the end of this year right?

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

(02-16-2018 10:59 AM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:17 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:59 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 08:41 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 08:10 AM)450bench Wrote:  "True Tiger fans" come in many forms and as one myself, I certainly recognize that a coaching change needs to be made at the end of the year. Has to be made, actually, for the program to progress back to where we all want it to be.

Honestly just curious - if you set aside the Calipari years (actually his last 4 yrs), what exactly do you see as "back to where we all want it to be"? What are the expectations expressed in that phrase?

Getting back to being a top 25 program, planning for NCAA tournaments, recruiting top100 talent, at minimum, and keeping most of the hometown talent home.
Memphis has a tradition of winning and talent and you can’t take away Cal or Kirk or Finch or Bartow or any other period for the sake of discussion. They all contributed to the programs success and tradition.

Then let's not take away Dean Ehlers, Moe Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, Johnny Jones, the probations associated with Kirk & Calipari - it's all part.

I too would love to have Calipari's last 4 yrs continuously & all the good that goes with it - without the NCAA probation. That said, Memphis historically is a .668 % win team. That's about 20 wins per season on avg. with a 30 game schedule & we've been to the NCAA 25 times in 64 seasons - including Calipar's last 4 yrs. Take those 4 yrs (well above avg) out, sub the historical avg & Memphis is at about .63 % & 21 NCAA appearances. Or maybe take out the years associated with probation.

Several other things. Memphis is currently playing a schedule (and have for several yrs) well below the historical Memphis SOS. That hurts consideration for the NCAA tourney & weakens the value of wins. This same dumbed-down schedule approach also hurts attendance. And regardless, the current criteria for NCAA tourney selection disadvantages a 20 win team playing a weak SOS schedule in favor of other weak conference champions. Relative to attendance, Calipari yrs were likely not the norm even for a winning Memphis program. Likely something approaching 12-14K is more likely given the increased competition for the entertainment $$. I don't care much about recruiting rankings & don't understand the obsessive addiction. It's the results that matter IMO, is Memphis competing, is Memphis winning. Sure recruiting is an indicator, but if it's the end-all, then Calipari should be fired at UK, he is severely underachieving. This thread is about be real, right?

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Every sports team at every level ebbs and flows throughout history... Historically Memphis is not a team that misses the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Historically we are not a team that can compete with top 25 teams. Historically we are not a program that lauds beating a 15-11 team down their two best players as a good and celebrated win.

You can set your bar based on the down years and be satisfied with Tubby so long as he performs at that level. The rest of fan base expects us to be competitive program on a consistent basis.

And to be fair. Legitimately, the only time I see people use the Cal era in any comparative form is when it is poster like you saying other fans have unreasonable expectations based on the Cal era. I never actually see fans saying they expect Tubby or JP (when he was here) perform at the same level. Nobody actually expects us to consistently win more games than any other NCAA program over a 4 year period or be competing for an NCAA title every year. So, stop with that lame argument.

Well you were right. We are not "historically" a top 25 team but a lot of people erroneously make the arguement that we are and should expect to be there all the time. They often use the Cal era as a reference to that point (even though it is not historically accurate) and I think that is the point he is trying to make.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

(02-16-2018 03:22 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

Wrong way Snow, they potentially make the payment to us, not vice versa.

(02-16-2018 03:24 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:22 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

Wrong way Snow, they potentially make the payment to us, not vice versa.

o. my bad. You're right.

Whichever way it goes, though...the results are the same.

We're out 850K

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

Outside of the Cal years, and Will Barton (thanks coach Cyp) and maybe Shaq Goodwin, when have national top level recruits said yes?

That's part of the problem with this discussion. People comparing now to a future that probably doesn't exist, regardless of who the replacement coach is.

(02-16-2018 07:28 AM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  "It's gonna get alot worse". - Jamammy

How can I keep this crap out of my feed? It's Bandwagon's Jumper dumb pic that shows below all his posts

(02-16-2018 03:27 PM)Shooters Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 07:28 AM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  "It's gonna get alot worse". - Jamammy

How can I keep this crap out of my feed?

Interesting.

(02-16-2018 03:26 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:24 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:22 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

Wrong way Snow, they potentially make the payment to us, not vice versa.

o. my bad. You're right.

Whichever way it goes, though...the results are the same.

We're out 850K

Yep, it's $600K if we average 6,000 butts in seats. But still a loss.

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

Bingo

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-16-2018 03:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:26 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:24 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:22 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  [/b]

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

Wrong way Snow, they potentially make the payment to us, not vice versa.

o. my bad. You're right.

Whichever way it goes, though...the results are the same.

We're out 850K

Yep, it's $600K if we average 6,000 butts in seats. But still a loss.

I just read 850 from someone who supposedly knows, but I myself am ignrant

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

Pierre may get them to say yes. It remains to be seen.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-16-2018 03:27 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

Outside of the Cal years, and Will Barton (thanks coach Cyp) and maybe Shaq Goodwin, when have national top level recruits said yes?

That's part of the problem with this discussion. People comparing now to a future that probably doesn't exist, regardless of who the replacement coach is.

Well you named a top 10 and top 25 in past 5 years prior to Tubby; Pastner had 2 Top 10 classes and Cal recruits with the best; that covers 17 OF THE PAST 19 YEARS. Don't act like its unusual here.

(02-16-2018 03:29 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:26 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:24 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:22 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  And we are probably gonna owe 850K to the Grizz.

Wrong way Snow, they potentially make the payment to us, not vice versa.

o. my bad. You're right.

Whichever way it goes, though...the results are the same.

We're out 850K

Yep, it's $600K if we average 6,000 butts in seats. But still a loss.

I just read 850 from someone who supposedly knows.

I believe it starts at $800K for 10,000 actual attendance average, and then drops $50K for each 1,000 less, to a minimum of $600K for 6,000 actual attendance, and going to zero to the U of M if under 6,000 actual attendance.

(02-16-2018 03:32 PM)Shooters Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:27 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

Outside of the Cal years, and Will Barton (thanks coach Cyp) and maybe Shaq Goodwin, when have national top level recruits said yes?

That's part of the problem with this discussion. People comparing now to a future that probably doesn't exist, regardless of who the replacement coach is.

Well you named a top 10 and top 25 in past 5 years prior to Tubby; Pastner had 2 Top 10 classes and Cal recruits with the best; that covers 17 OF THE PAST 19 YEARS. Don't act like its unusual here.

NATIONAL recruits, dude. Point is we have no real history of recruiting well nationally. To expect a replacement coach to do so is probably an unrealistic expectation.

(02-16-2018 12:36 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:59 AM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:17 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:59 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 08:41 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Honestly just curious - if you set aside the Calipari years (actually his last 4 yrs), what exactly do you see as "back to where we all want it to be"? What are the expectations expressed in that phrase?

Getting back to being a top 25 program, planning for NCAA tournaments, recruiting top100 talent, at minimum, and keeping most of the hometown talent home.
Memphis has a tradition of winning and talent and you can’t take away Cal or Kirk or Finch or Bartow or any other period for the sake of discussion. They all contributed to the programs success and tradition.

Then let's not take away Dean Ehlers, Moe Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, Johnny Jones, the probations associated with Kirk & Calipari - it's all part.

I too would love to have Calipari's last 4 yrs continuously & all the good that goes with it - without the NCAA probation. That said, Memphis historically is a .668 % win team. That's about 20 wins per season on avg. with a 30 game schedule & we've been to the NCAA 25 times in 64 seasons - including Calipar's last 4 yrs. Take those 4 yrs (well above avg) out, sub the historical avg & Memphis is at about .63 % & 21 NCAA appearances. Or maybe take out the years associated with probation.

Several other things. Memphis is currently playing a schedule (and have for several yrs) well below the historical Memphis SOS. That hurts consideration for the NCAA tourney & weakens the value of wins. This same dumbed-down schedule approach also hurts attendance. And regardless, the current criteria for NCAA tourney selection disadvantages a 20 win team playing a weak SOS schedule in favor of other weak conference champions. Relative to attendance, Calipari yrs were likely not the norm even for a winning Memphis program. Likely something approaching 12-14K is more likely given the increased competition for the entertainment $$. I don't care much about recruiting rankings & don't understand the obsessive addiction. It's the results that matter IMO, is Memphis competing, is Memphis winning. Sure recruiting is an indicator, but if it's the end-all, then Calipari should be fired at UK, he is severely underachieving. This thread is about be real, right?

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Every sports team at every level ebbs and flows throughout history... Historically Memphis is not a team that misses the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Historically we are not a team that can compete with top 25 teams. Historically we are not a program that lauds beating a 15-11 team down their two best players as a good and celebrated win.

You can set your bar based on the down years and be satisfied with Tubby so long as he performs at that level. The rest of fan base expects us to be competitive program on a consistent basis.

And to be fair. Legitimately, the only time I see people use the Cal era in any comparative form is when it is poster like you saying other fans have unreasonable expectations based on the Cal era. I never actually see fans saying they expect Tubby or JP (when he was here) perform at the same level. Nobody actually expects us to consistently win more games than any other NCAA program over a 4 year period or be competing for an NCAA title every year. So, stop with that lame argument.

To be fair - you either can't read or your bias is so great you read things that aren't said - and you attribute things that aren't said or implied. I simply stated the historical performance of the Memphis program - and made NO concluding, therefore-type statements about what it means. I didn't set the bar anywhere, again simply stated the historical averages for consideration by those reading this thread - a thread on being realist LOL. Further, I've made NO argument & no statement that says, "Historically Memphis is not a team that misses the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Historically we are not a team that can compete with top 25 teams. Historically we are not a program that lauds beating a 15-11 team down their two best players as a good and celebrated win." It's YOU making those statements, claims & drawing those conclusions & attributing them to me - they aren't mine. And BTW, Memphis is not, based upon historical averages, a school that recruited annually, multiple top 100 players, prior to Calipari. Maybe it happened but it is not supported by historical averages. Memphis historically recruited Memphis with an occasional exception. So Memphis' teams ebbed & flowed (in terms of wins) based upon Memphis talent (especially as relates to local big men). Today Memphis, the city's talent, is recruited nationally not just by Memphis. Sure I want Memphis to get a tourney invite every year but historically it's about 1 in 3 yrs. - with 2-3 of periods of 10 yrs or more without an invite & several periods where we had consecutive invites (the up years). And BTW, IMO with Memphis in the AAC, tourney invites are tougher to get than ever. Because the way Memphis is scheduling, unless Memphis wins the AAC or the AAC tourney, we will likely not have enough quality wins to get that invite unless we are close (like a UH type year) with a couple of in-conference quality wins.

But rather than falsely attribute some lowered expectations to me, why not look at the historical performance averages - and then compare your expectations to actual history. Oh and don't forget the probation years.......cheers.

You must be a millennial:
80's Dana recruited better than anyone except possibly Houston
80's-90's Larry was an outstanding recruiter; 2 McD AA in one year ; had some loaded teams. Penny.
2000 Cal enough said
2010-2015 Pastner outstanding recruiter-two top ten years.

(02-16-2018 10:49 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:17 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:59 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 08:41 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 08:10 AM)450bench Wrote:  "True Tiger fans" come in many forms and as one myself, I certainly recognize that a coaching change needs to be made at the end of the year. Has to be made, actually, for the program to progress back to where we all want it to be.

Honestly just curious - if you set aside the Calipari years (actually his last 4 yrs), what exactly do you see as "back to where we all want it to be"? What are the expectations expressed in that phrase?

Getting back to being a top 25 program, planning for NCAA tournaments, recruiting top100 talent, at minimum, and keeping most of the hometown talent home.
Memphis has a tradition of winning and talent and you can’t take away Cal or Kirk or Finch or Bartow or any other period for the sake of discussion. They all contributed to the programs success and tradition.

Then let's not take away Dean Ehlers, Moe Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, Johnny Jones, the probations associated with Kirk & Calipari - it's all part.

I too would love to have Calipari's last 4 yrs continuously & all the good that goes with it - without the NCAA probation. That said, Memphis historically is a .668 % win team. That's about 20 wins per season on avg. with a 30 game schedule & we've been to the NCAA 25 times in 64 seasons - including Calipar's last 4 yrs. Take those 4 yrs (well above avg) out, sub the historical avg & Memphis is at about .63 % & 21 NCAA appearances. Or maybe take out the years associated with probation.

Several other things. Memphis is currently playing a schedule (and have for several yrs) well below the historical Memphis SOS. That hurts consideration for the NCAA tourney & weakens the value of wins. This same dumbed-down schedule approach also hurts attendance. And regardless, the current criteria for NCAA tourney selection disadvantages a 20 win team playing a weak SOS schedule in favor of other weak conference champions. Relative to attendance, Calipari yrs were likely not the norm even for a winning Memphis program. Likely something approaching 12-14K is more likely given the increased competition for the entertainment $$. I don't care much about recruiting rankings & don't understand the obsessive addiction. It's the results that matter IMO, is Memphis competing, is Memphis winning. Sure recruiting is an indicator, but if it's the end-all, then Calipari should be fired at UK, he is severely underachieving. This thread is about be real, right?

Again, it's about getting back to being a top 25 program, period. About getting quality players and about being NCAA tourney relevant and whatever criteria that takes. That's what this program has historically been and what it should always be.
Tubby deserved the chance to succeed and he's a fine floor coach. Really good actually. Clearly a classy man. But he can't get players and has turned off the basketball community here and brings ZERO fire or energy to the program. His staff is bad on a historical level and that's on him. Totally. He's got one guy coming in. ONE GUY. That's pathetic and for that reason there is no real hope for the future. He's got to go, for that reason.
A lot of us were criticized for wanting to give the guy a chance and my comment to that was "if he doesn't produce and recruit, we'll all be wanting a change" and that has become reality. Nobody wants mediocrity and that's squarely what we have now. It started with pastner and now we have it with Tubby. That's unacceptable on every level.

Impossible to argue this ^

(02-16-2018 03:27 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:16 PM)wylioats Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 02:28 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 01:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  * It played out
* we're mediocre as some here predicted prior to it playing out
* There is no hope due to the staffs inability to recruit upper level talent
* it's time to cut bait
* period

May all be true, but if the money is not there, the money is not there.

We took years to fund a basketball IPF, including a $10M donation, and ended up costing only $21M, and years more to fund a football IPF.

The admin/boosters are not going to pay $9.75M to make a coach go away after his 2nd season, when he will have had winning records both years. You can divide it by 6 or 12 or 24, it's still not going to happen.

You can hope he resigns (won't happen either) or hope he gets another job (possible), but Memphis isn't cutting bait this year.

And in the mean time, top level recruits (local and national) will continue to say no. And in the mean time, Tiger fans will continue to walk away (look at loss of TSF donations, drop in season tix and current game attendance) and totally stop caring, this is called apathy. Apathy=program killer, and yes, we're currently at that point with this coach and his staff.

Outside of the Cal years, and Will Barton (thanks coach Cyp) and maybe Shaq Goodwin, when have national top level recruits said yes?

That's part of the problem with this discussion. People comparing now to a future that probably doesn't exist, regardless of who the replacement coach is.

My point being, under Tubby and his staff, there's not even a remote chance we'll land a top national recruit, and what's sad is, the top local guys are starting to say no also.