[I don't think ND, Army, and Navy could compete with the Big Televen academic arrangements. It's not a put-down of those schools academics, but just the fact that they don't focus on graduate-level research. PSU has been involved in research partnerships that have increased the $$ coming into their programs...ND, Army, and Navy can't replace thatQUOTE]


--I can't argue with that...no conference can match the Big 10 in terms of academics (except the Ivy league of course)...however...the Big East does have some fairly solid academic schools themeselves...Pitt, Rutgers, syracuse and Uconn are highly ranked schools....all I'm saying that if Army and Navy were to join....and then ND....maybe we could put an alliance together that would make Penn St listen

-- I do know that the BE offered Penn St the same deal it offered Miami ....a large % of the BCS money regarless of where they finsihed in the standings....I think it was between 8-10 million guranteed...of course that would have gone up a little bit if they were confernce champs...of course PSU turned it down because there is no academic alliance in the BE....if one were to emerge + the added revenue of a BE championship in NYC....which probably would be Notre Dame vs Penn St most yrs....that may be enough to change the minds of the powers that be....of course the odds of this happening are very slim...but that I think would have to be the approach the BE takes if it wants any chance of getting PSU back

--Anyway...on to a more realistic subject....Army and Navy.....why would Army and Navy join the BE?
#1 The BE would provide both schools with more opportunites to be on TV and go to better bowl games (including the NYC bowl)...which would help recruiting
#2 Both schools are in the geographic footprint...and would enjoy higher attendance #s then they presently experance....many Uconn, Rutgers and Syracuse fans would make the trip to West Point....Navy would get a boost from Rutgers and Pitt fans...and also would have a guranteed sellout every time it played West Virginia in Annapolis
#3 BCS money/expsosure.....Air Force has been a solid top 50 football school for a decade...there is no reason why Army could not make that jump with some help from the Big East....Navy may already be there

Jackson

Army and navy would be realistic choices from both a geographic and competitive point of view. Notre Dame will be the next team out because they will get a better bowl agreement somewhere else. Doubtful they are going to want in the Indy bowl vs a MAC team.

WAVEFAN98 Wrote:Army and navy would be realistic choices from both a geographic and competitive point of view. Notre Dame will be the next team out because they will get a better bowl agreement somewhere else. Doubtful they are going to want in the Indy bowl vs a MAC team.

Who exactly is going to give Notre Dame a better bowl agreement than the Big East? What, is the ACC or Big 10 going to step in and give them their top bowl tie-ins if Notre Dame breaks .500? Get a grip my man.

:rolleyes:

WAVEFAN98 Wrote:Army and navy would be realistic choices from both a geographic and competitive point of view. Notre Dame will be the next team out because they will get a better bowl agreement somewhere else. Doubtful they are going to want in the Indy bowl vs a MAC team.

And that woudl be where? Seriously, where? The Big East is the only conference that will allow Notre Dame first dibs at a bowl, do you seriously believe the Big Ten or ACC or SEC will allow Notre Dame that option? And the Big East is the only conference that will allow Notre Dame to stay in All-Sports but football and keep their T.V. deal. Instead of making a blanket statement like that actually back it up with facts. The Indy Bowl is the lowest bowl, behind the BCS, Gator, Continental, Insight and eventually the Big Apple Bowl. Notre Dame shouldn't even be worried about the Indy bowl so saying the Indy Bowl would drive them off is idiotic.

[Army and navy would be realistic choices from both a geographic and competitive point of view. Notre Dame will be the next team out because they will get a better bowl agreement somewhere else. Doubtful they are going to want in the Indy bowl vs a MAC team. QUOTE]


--Personally...I think adding the academies would make the Big East more attractive to Notre Dame...not less

--Can you imagine the TV ratings, attendance and press coverage for a Notre Dame @ Army game played in NYC's Big Apple Bowl.....especially when one considers all the histoy those two schools have together


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:[I don't think ND, Army, and Navy could compete with the Big Televen academic arrangements. It's not a put-down of those schools academics, but just the fact that they don't focus on graduate-level research. PSU has been involved in research partnerships that have increased the $$ coming into their programs...ND, Army, and Navy can't replace thatQUOTE]


--I can't argue with that...no conference can match the Big 10 in terms of academics (except the Ivy league of course)...however...the Big East does have some fairly solid academic schools themeselves...Pitt, Rutgers, syracuse and Uconn are highly ranked schools....all I'm saying that if Army and Navy were to join....and then ND....maybe we could put an alliance together that would make Penn St listen

-- I do know that the BE offered Penn St the same deal it offered Miami ....a large % of the BCS money regarless of where they finsihed in the standings....I think it was between 8-10 million guranteed...of course that would have gone up a little bit if they were confernce champs...of course PSU turned it down because there is no academic alliance in the BE....if one were to emerge + the added revenue of a BE championship in NYC....which probably would be Notre Dame vs Penn St most yrs....that may be enough to change the minds of the powers that be....of course the odds of this happening are very slim...but that I think would have to be the approach the BE takes if it wants any chance of getting PSU back

--Anyway...on to a more realistic subject....Army and Navy.....why would Army and Navy join the BE?
#1 The BE would provide both schools with more opportunites to be on TV and go to better bowl games (including the NYC bowl)...which would help recruiting
#2 Both schools are in the geographic footprint...and would enjoy higher attendance #s then they presently experance....many Uconn, Rutgers and Syracuse fans would make the trip to West Point....Navy would get a boost from Rutgers and Pitt fans...and also would have a guranteed sellout every time it played West Virginia in Annapolis
#3 BCS money/expsosure.....Air Force has been a solid top 50 football school for a decade...there is no reason why Army could not make that jump with some help from the Big East....Navy may already be there

Jackson

Army/Navy will never join a conference......as Army learned the hard way 0-12 in 2003.......they got beat up to bad......they have the 4year service obligation, for all there players to finish........they can't recruit the type of players to play in the BE.......they stay indy cause if they do have a good year they go to any bowl they want........Army/Navy want to play teams they have a chance to beat,the SMUs,Northwestern's,Baylor's, not WVU. ND has nothing to gain by joining any conference.....they have there own TV deal........they have a good year they can go to any bowl game they want.........Army/Navy and ND could end up playing in the NYC bowl without ever joining the BE......but i think the BE goes to 12 adds Memphis, ECU , UCF, and whoever..............UMass??????......i don't think so, no fan intrest....no$$$$$......maby Villinova?????? they play D1AA now more fan support then Temple........they have the $$$$$$$$.....could bring the large Philly market???

[Army/Navy want to play teams they have a chance to beat,the SMUs,Northwestern's,Baylor's, not WVU. ND has nothing to gain by joining any conference.....they have there own TV deal........they have a good year they can go to any bowl game they want.........Army/Navy and ND could end up playing in the NYC bowl without ever joining the BE......but i think the BE goes to 12 adds Memphis, ECU , UCF, and whoever..............UMass??????......i don't think so, no fan intrest....no$$$$$......maby Villinova?????? they play D1AA now more fan support then Temple........they have the $$$$$$$$.....could bring the large Philly market??? QUOTE]



--Maybe it just me...but I don't think the academies are that helpless.....again Air Force has thirved in a conference....I saw Navy run over WVU at Moutaineer Field in (1997?)...and that was a WVU team that had Marc Bulger, Amos Zeroue and Jerry Porter ...Army needs work...no on can argue with that

-- I would have no problem with the BE adding Memphis and/or ECU...although going to 12 probably shouldn't happen unless Penn St or ND were to join ( big time longshot).... if I were a Pirate/Tigers fan I would be worried about what Mikey T has been saying about developing Eastern football/fan support/TV market....I'm not sure what the ratings would in the northeast corridor for a Memphis appearnce in the Big Apple Bowl

--Just a final thought on your 12th team.....Villanova decided some years ago that it did not want to go Divison I....Delaware has a great I-AA program ...they may be considered when the time comes...and of course you have the once great power Fordham.....but all that stuff has come out of NYC so no one knows how accurate the reports are

Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- I would have no problem with the BE adding Memphis and/or ECU...although going to 12 probably shouldn't happen unless Penn St or ND were to join ( big time longshot).... if I were a Pirate/Tigers fan I would be worried about what Mikey T has been saying about developing Eastern football/fan support/TV market....I'm not sure what the ratings would in the northeast corridor for a Memphis appearnce in the Big Apple Bowl

Nah, I'm not going to worry about it. But then again, I've expressed some indifference as to which conference we're in.

I do have one question...why was the Big East set against us? I've heard that BC was behind it...but I've never really seen proof of that. Just wanted to get some thoughts from here.

I've heard 99Tiger that the timezone was an issue. I know people point to South Florida but from what I heard it was a hard sell to get South Florida in originally but then USF showed their supporters along with potential (I think they were 16-7 the last 2 years) and they resided in a big market and that ultimately sold the Big East ADs. George Steinbrenner has some serious pull down there because I believe his kids went to South Florida or something like that. And they have some other big time, big name supporters. If not for that who knows who the 8th school would have been. Jackson would probably know more on that.

One of the things that people don't realize about Notre Dame is that their recruiting has dipped off partially because of their lack of a conference affiliation. It's hard to go to a BCS bowl at Notre Dame, I think they've only been to one BCS bowl since the BCS's inception? With the schedule they play and the need for money playing a schedule like that is a necessity, and as a result they severely reduce their chances at going to a premiere bowl, especially the BCS. That's why Notre Dame seriously considered playing a partial schedule against Boston College when all of this conference expansion started, that way they could say they're in a conference and it would improve their chances at getting a BCS bowl as an independant. But Boston College bailing caused that to completely fall apart and that's why Notre Dame was so upset with Boston College. Notre Dame fans are REALLY angry with BC.

[I've heard 99Tiger that the timezone was an issue. I know people point to South Florida but from what I heard it was a hard sell to get South Florida in originally but then USF showed their supporters along with potential (I think they were 16-7 the last 2 years) and they resided in a big market and that ultimately sold the Big East ADs. George Steinbrenner has some serious pull down there because I believe his kids went to South Florida or something like that. And they have some other big time, big name supporters. If not for that who knows who the 8th school would have been. Jackson would probably know more on that.
QUOTE]


-- I don't know if Steinbrenner had anything to do with USF or not....but I do know that USF was a tough sell....Coach Rod stated publicly many teams here in WV that he was against any other Flordia teams being added....

-- I also remember in the days right after BCs depature...some articles came out around the East that said the BE ADs were strongly considering adding Army and Navy to replace BC and go to 9 football playing members....Army's depature from CUSA seemed to support that and many assumed that the BE and Army had some kind behind the scenes deal going on

--In the end though the BE needed to develop another power football program...and no one can argue that USF has unlimited potential when it comes to that....considering how young there program is and the fact that they have another year in CUSA...there recruiting this year was GREAT


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:[Army/Navy want to play teams they have a chance to beat,the SMUs,Northwestern's,Baylor's, not WVU. ND has nothing to gain by joining any conference.....they have there own TV deal........they have a good year they can go to any bowl game they want.........Army/Navy and ND could end up playing in the NYC bowl without ever joining the BE......but i think the BE goes to 12 adds Memphis, ECU , UCF, and whoever..............UMass??????......i don't think so, no fan intrest....no$$$$$......maby Villinova?????? they play D1AA now more fan support then Temple........they have the $$$$$$$$.....could bring the large Philly market??? QUOTE]



--Maybe it just me...but I don't think the academies are that helpless.....again Air Force has thirved in a conference....I saw Navy run over WVU at Moutaineer Field in (1997?)...and that was a WVU team that had Marc Bulger, Amos Zeroue and Jerry Porter ...Army needs work...no on can argue with that

-- I would have no problem with the BE adding Memphis and/or ECU...although going to 12 probably shouldn't happen unless Penn St or ND were to join ( big time longshot).... if I were a Pirate/Tigers fan I would be worried about what Mikey T has been saying about developing Eastern football/fan support/TV market....I'm not sure what the ratings would in the northeast corridor for a Memphis appearnce in the Big Apple Bowl

--Just a final thought on your 12th team.....Villanova decided some years ago that it did not want to go Divison I....Delaware has a great I-AA program ...they may be considered when the time comes...and of course you have the once great power Fordham.....but all that stuff has come out of NYC so no one knows how accurate the reports are

Jackson

i think the BE splits goes to a 12 team all sports conference has a championship game in NYC.......i remember when Villanova shut down football all together in 1983......there allums raised hell.....they reinstated football.....now that the BE got rid of Temple......the large Philly market just 100 miles from NYC.....is wide open?........Nova......could rase loads of $$$$$$ in a hart beat for a large suburban stadium.....if they knew they would be 100% sure of a BE birth.........Delaware???? has very good fan support.....i think they have lots of$$$$$$$$to move up to D1......they could join the BE with Nova????? i just think the BE goes to 12 adds Memphis, ECU, Nova, and Delaware

think the BE splits goes to a 12 team all sports conference has a championship game in NYC.......i remember when Villanova shut down football all together in 1983......there allums raised hell.....they reinstated football.....now that the BE got rid of Temple......the large Philly market just 100 miles from NYC.....is wide open?........Nova......could rase loads of $$$$$$ in a hart beat for a large suburban stadium.....if they knew they would be 100% sure of a BE birth.........Delaware???? has very good fan support.....i think they have lots of$$$$$$$$to move up to D1......they could join the BE with Nova????? i just think the BE goes to 12 adds Memphis, ECU, Nova, and Delaware [QUOTE]

-- The Big East would love the idea of Villanova moving back up to Division 1....in the mid-90s the BE offered the bball onlys guranteed BE football membership if any of them wanted to jump to Divison I...the only clause in the agreement was that the move had to be announced by a certain date (don't recall what year it was)....well anyway...Uconn took advantage of the offer...there was some interest from Nova too...but as was mentioned above the Wildcat's staduim is in a surburban area...many of the residents there took to the streets to protest Novas move up to Divison I because of the increaded crowds which would be coming into there area and none of them knew what turns the Wildcats staduim expanions/revonvations and adding on additional parking would take...Nova never really solved that issue and it was a major reason why they didn't make the jump

-- From what I hear Delware has some great support for its football program and may be able to pull off a Marshall like transition to I-A....the only problem with the Blue Hens is there hoops program...the BE football schools are not going to add a team for all sports unless that school has at least decent hoops...so we will have to see how that plays out

--That's why I think a lot of fans were in the North East were hoping that Umass would find a way to make the jump....not only would they be a solid rival for Uconn, but they have a great hoops history....and the BE could have the pleasure of putting another BCS school in Boston College's back yard :laugh:


Jackson

as i remember Nova's stadium is on there own campus? i don't think they need permission to expand there stadium? UMass as apposed to UConn has little fan support or $$$$$ but BE afiliation could change all that? I remember there was a lot of alums at U of Richmond who wanted them to move up to D1 but there BOT overuled them and they went D1AA that school has big $$$$$$$$$$ a BE football bid would change all that? Delaware could be the diamond in the rough for the BE it so close to the Philly market, has good fan support....the Philly market is just to big a market for the BE to leave open.....Temple is toast the BE would never ever bring them back....Temple had its chance, stick a fork in Temple they are dunn.............i just think the BE goes to 12 and has a champinship game in the new NY Jets stadium + a $$$$$ bowl game there........the BE splits adds Delaware , Memphis, ECU and either Nova, Uof Richmond, and very doubtful UMass

I would love to have UMass in the Big East, I think that would improve their basketball and get it back to its former glory. It would also be hilarious if we dropped a school in BC's backyard just to rub it in their face. Not only would UMass take recruits and TV time from Boston College, but it would lock BC forever in the ACC area since the Big East would already have a team in that area and UMass wouldn't want BC back in the Big East if UMass were having success. UMass is so perfect for the Big East, in both basketball and football, I wish they were able to upgrade their football program to D-IA.

My first question is , why would you want to rub something in BC's face? Do you blame them for going to the ACC? Its a better league, you would go as well. Beyond that, yes, UMASS would be a good choice.

WAVEFAN98 Wrote:My first question is , why would you want to rub something in BC's face? Do you blame them for going to the ACC? Its a better league, you would go as well. Beyond that, yes, UMASS would be a good choice.

In hindsight it was a bad move for BC. They thought the Big East would lose it automatic status and went to the ACC for security. What happened the Big East kept it automatic status, it is going to keep it other Bowl bids and BC is now a Northeast Private school in a Southern league.

In the Big East they would have had a much easier path to a BCS Bowl, their travel cost would have been a lot less and they will now have a hard time scheduling schools in their area.

The best choice for a 9th Big East school outside of Notre Dame and Penn State is, was and forever will be Memphis.

[My first question is , why would you want to rub something in BC's face? Do you blame them for going to the ACC? Its a better league, you would go as well. Beyond that, yes, UMASS would be a good choice.QUOTE]


--Maybe I'm just crazy....but I do expect more loyalty from a school that was a founding member of the Big East conference and has played football with the Eastern Indepents for a half a century

-- Which makes the situation worse is that BC + Miami had been planning this thing with the ACC for years

-- Also...when Miami and VT were originally taken to the ACC...BC stepped to the plate and said they were committed to rebuilding the BE now....and well...look what happened three months later...BC left anyway....so basically a school that we have been associated with for 25 yrs (40-50 yrs if you are a BE team that plays football) lied to your face multiple times for many years and then stabs you in the back...yes...I think we have a right to be mad

Jackson

WAVEFAN98 Wrote:My first question is , why would you want to rub something in BC's face? Do you blame them for going to the ACC? Its a better league, you would go as well. Beyond that, yes, UMASS would be a good choice.

Yes I do blame them, for the way they left. If they had left in the first round of the Big East expansion people would have been ok with it, but to stay, lie and say you weren't going and then stab the Big East in the back at the last second, that's the problem. UC fans have a right to be angry as well, Boston College and UC administrations were close, they told the schools entering the Big East they would stay, then they lied and bailed just a month or so before expansion. It's not about a "better" conference it's about burning bridges and lying.

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