(08-12-2018 10:13 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 09:41 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 12:48 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-11-2018 09:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Iowa wanted to go FBS in 2013. Get West Texas A&M to move up? They could be a better fit for New Mexico State. Northern Arizona have an FBS dome. We do not know who might want to move over. I thought the WAC wanted to expand before July 1st, but they have not. It would be hard to get any D1 to jump to the WAc right now. You may have to invite D2 schools that have stadiums that is over 15,000 stadium or as low as 10,000 to move up. Central Oklahoma, Dixie State and Azusa Pacific have below 15,000, but they could expand. AP is not that far from the Rose Bowl to use until they get their stadium upgraded. There are a couple of Lone Star schools that do play in stadiums over 15,000 already. They could be the future WAC FBS as well.

You need to check the rules just once. A DII school can’t aspire to being FBS right when it a transitional DI because the NCAA requires a full DI school first. GCU is only eligible now, CBU would need to wait five more years. The DI transition is 2.5 times longer than the FBS transition.

If NMSU had wanted to fill the WAC with FCS schools from DII, it would have already happened.

You need to recheck the rules. You have flaunted rules out of thin air about your supposed Great North Conference scheme. As for D2 schools that have the money to move up to FBS right away after spending a year or 2 in FCS? Than they can be counted.

I kick NoDak in the shale deposits regularly for being wrong about conference continuity, but I don't know that he's wrong about having to be a full Division I member to apply for FBS (i.e. done with your Division I transition). Neither of you has given a cite to NCAA bylaws about what you're saying.

It's very plausible to me that the FBS rules require you to be a full Division I member. It's also very plausible that they don't, because who would even think that a Division I startup would be a credible FBS candidate?

Quote:NCAA have always given waivers.

Umm, no. NCAA waivers, or wholesale rewrites of the rules, happen regularly for those "inside the club" (Save-the-WAC rule, Big East automatic bid waiver) but very rarely for the benefit of those "outside the club" (Liberty to FBS--Liberty had a pretty good case to take to court about religious discrimination, and about Liberty meeting the legitimate purposes of the FBS restrictions--they've shown no problems funding or scheduling at an FBS level.)

Quote:Once Liberty was given the waiver? I could see other schools who wants to be FBS could challenge the rule. That includes D2 schools. The Liberty situation have opened the can of worms, and we could see more schools challenge the NCAA in the near future.

The point of granting Liberty a waiver was so that the NCAA didn't take the chance of losing in court, having the rules struck down and any run-down back-woods academic-toilet school jumping into FBS. So no.

Here's a link to the PDF, available for free download. Find out what the rules actually say.

EDIT: Oops. Here's the link

D2 schools could get an FBS invite. That is the only way they could join fBS skipping FCS. Back in 1996? UAB went from D3 Independent to become D1A Independent. That same year, UCF went from D2 Independent to 1A Independent. These schools could not do it today. North Alabama was thinking of asking the SBC if they will let them join. The issue is you can not join FBS unless you get an conference invite. If the WAC sends West Texas A&M an invite? Under the new rules? They can transaction to FBS from D1. The first year could be an a Independent year as long as they can get FBS schools to schedule them. I think New Mexico State, UTSA, New Mexico and UTEP could schedule them. They could also get Liberty and UMass. as well. They could play bodybag games with Arizona, Arizona State and Texas Tech. That would be like 9 easy to schedule. The other three could be against FCS opponents the first year. The second year it have to be 11 games or 10 games against FBS oppoenents and 2 against FCS. When the WAC finally gets to sponsor FBS football? D2 schools would be already finished the transition to D1.

(08-12-2018 02:10 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 10:13 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 09:41 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 12:48 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-11-2018 09:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Iowa wanted to go FBS in 2013. Get West Texas A&M to move up? They could be a better fit for New Mexico State. Northern Arizona have an FBS dome. We do not know who might want to move over. I thought the WAC wanted to expand before July 1st, but they have not. It would be hard to get any D1 to jump to the WAc right now. You may have to invite D2 schools that have stadiums that is over 15,000 stadium or as low as 10,000 to move up. Central Oklahoma, Dixie State and Azusa Pacific have below 15,000, but they could expand. AP is not that far from the Rose Bowl to use until they get their stadium upgraded. There are a couple of Lone Star schools that do play in stadiums over 15,000 already. They could be the future WAC FBS as well.

You need to check the rules just once. A DII school can’t aspire to being FBS right when it a transitional DI because the NCAA requires a full DI school first. GCU is only eligible now, CBU would need to wait five more years. The DI transition is 2.5 times longer than the FBS transition.

If NMSU had wanted to fill the WAC with FCS schools from DII, it would have already happened.

You need to recheck the rules. You have flaunted rules out of thin air about your supposed Great North Conference scheme. As for D2 schools that have the money to move up to FBS right away after spending a year or 2 in FCS? Than they can be counted.

I kick NoDak in the shale deposits regularly for being wrong about conference continuity, but I don't know that he's wrong about having to be a full Division I member to apply for FBS (i.e. done with your Division I transition). Neither of you has given a cite to NCAA bylaws about what you're saying.

It's very plausible to me that the FBS rules require you to be a full Division I member. It's also very plausible that they don't, because who would even think that a Division I startup would be a credible FBS candidate?

Quote:NCAA have always given waivers.

Umm, no. NCAA waivers, or wholesale rewrites of the rules, happen regularly for those "inside the club" (Save-the-WAC rule, Big East automatic bid waiver) but very rarely for the benefit of those "outside the club" (Liberty to FBS--Liberty had a pretty good case to take to court about religious discrimination, and about Liberty meeting the legitimate purposes of the FBS restrictions--they've shown no problems funding or scheduling at an FBS level.)

Quote:Once Liberty was given the waiver? I could see other schools who wants to be FBS could challenge the rule. That includes D2 schools. The Liberty situation have opened the can of worms, and we could see more schools challenge the NCAA in the near future.

The point of granting Liberty a waiver was so that the NCAA didn't take the chance of losing in court, having the rules struck down and any run-down back-woods academic-toilet school jumping into FBS. So no.

Here's a link to the PDF, available for free download. Find out what the rules actually say.

EDIT: Oops. Here's the link

D2 schools could get an FBS invite.

What rule says that? I sent you the link to the manual.

Quote:The issue is you can not join FBS unless you get an conference invite.

This is true. But it would help to have the text of the rule that says so.

Quote:If the WAC sends West Texas A&M an invite? Under the new rules? They can transaction to FBS from D1.

Do you have a cite on that?

Quote:The first year could be an a Independent year as long as they can get FBS schools to schedule them.

That's a lot less certain. And that's where the actual text of the rules comes in.

2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read of Sections 20.4-20.5 doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

UAB and UCF had already been non-football DI schools for years. Get a clue.

A new football stadium would be needed.
The dome would be the IPF/ basketball arena.

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For NAU to become FBS quote did not work.

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(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

NO, NO, NO

What happened in the past is meaningless today. Rules and regulations have changed

(08-12-2018 06:08 PM)CoastalVANDAL Wrote:  A new football stadium would be needed.
The dome would be the IPF/ basketball arena.

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Only way the existing dome would work would be to take the roof off, and build up/south end zone addition.

NAU needs a real basketball arena - that is first priority. Despite the size, endowment, etc, NAU is not FBS material at this time.

(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

West Texas A&M actually did drop their program for a year in 1991

DavidSt seems to be confusing the time when DI schools were allowed into DIII to play non scholarship football, and then move up to FBS. The NCAA has forbid that practice for almost two decades.

(08-12-2018 10:05 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  I think the only way the WAC goes FBS is to rip apart the MVFC. Northern Iowa, Missouri State, North Dakota, South Dakota, North Dakota State, and South Dakota State get the WAC to seven. Grab a couple of Southland schools to make it nine. UTRGV eventually makes it ten for football.

This brings the all-sports Missouri Valley down to eight. They grab Illinois-Chicago and Milwaukee. The Horizon takes Fort Wayne and Chicago State, and the Cougars survive their non-renewal from the WAC.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, Western Illinois, are in a bit of a pickle. They invite Grand Canyon, Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist to keep the lights on. Sacramento State and Northern Colorado join for baseball only.

Western Illinois, Youngstown State, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, and Indiana State join the OVC for football only, pushing the OVC to 14 in football.

WAC
North - Northern Iowa, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD
South - UTRGV, Southland #1, Southland #2, New Mexico State, Missouri State
Non-football - UMKC

Omaha and Denver eventually replace UMKC in the WAC, and then the WAC invites Arizona State, Colorado College, and Air Force for hockey only.

If this were to go down I highly doubt this group would keep UMKC as the non football school from the WAC. If there is a hold over from the WAC it would be GCU as the non football school.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, and Western Illinois would love UMKC in their league and with the adds of Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist you would have a midwest league with markets in Seattle/LA/Salt Lake City/Denver/Tulsa/Omaha/KC/and Macomb... Travel partners would be

Seattle/CBU
UVU/Denver
ORU/Omaha
UMKC/WIU

This said league would be ran by Seattle CBU UVU.

(08-12-2018 08:19 PM)Lopes87 Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 10:05 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  I think the only way the WAC goes FBS is to rip apart the MVFC. Northern Iowa, Missouri State, North Dakota, South Dakota, North Dakota State, and South Dakota State get the WAC to seven. Grab a couple of Southland schools to make it nine. UTRGV eventually makes it ten for football.

This brings the all-sports Missouri Valley down to eight. They grab Illinois-Chicago and Milwaukee. The Horizon takes Fort Wayne and Chicago State, and the Cougars survive their non-renewal from the WAC.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, Western Illinois, are in a bit of a pickle. They invite Grand Canyon, Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist to keep the lights on. Sacramento State and Northern Colorado join for baseball only.

Western Illinois, Youngstown State, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, and Indiana State join the OVC for football only, pushing the OVC to 14 in football.

WAC
North - Northern Iowa, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD
South - UTRGV, Southland #1, Southland #2, New Mexico State, Missouri State
Non-football - UMKC

Omaha and Denver eventually replace UMKC in the WAC, and then the WAC invites Arizona State, Colorado College, and Air Force for hockey only.

If this were to go down I highly doubt this group would keep UMKC as the non football school from the WAC. If there is a hold over from the WAC it would be GCU as the non football school.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, and Western Illinois would love UMKC in their league and with the adds of Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist you would have a midwest league with markets in Seattle/LA/Salt Lake City/Denver/Tulsa/Omaha/KC/and Macomb... Travel partners would be

Seattle/CBU
UVU/Denver
ORU/Omaha
UMKC/WIU

This said league would be ran by Seattle CBU UVU.

Travel partners would be this:
ORU/UMKC
Omaha/WIU

(08-12-2018 07:52 PM)NoDak Wrote:  DavidSt seems to be confusing the time when DI schools were allowed into DIII to play non scholarship football, and then move up to FBS. The NCAA has forbid that practice for almost two decades.

UCSB was a D3 in football after reviving it in the 80s, and dropped it again for good in 1992 after the NCAA ruling.

(08-12-2018 08:19 PM)Lopes87 Wrote:  If this were to go down I highly doubt this group would keep UMKC as the non football school from the WAC. If there is a hold over from the WAC it would be GCU as the non football school.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, and Western Illinois would love UMKC in their league and with the adds of Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist you would have a midwest league with markets in Seattle/LA/Salt Lake City/Denver/Tulsa/Omaha/KC/and Macomb... Travel partners would be

Seattle/CBU
UVU/Denver
ORU/Omaha
UMKC/WIU

This said league would be ran by Seattle CBU UVU.

I could definitely see that happening - I guess it comes down to whether UMKC would want to leave the reconstituted WAC at which they are basically at the geographic center, or the Summit. UMKC may be more palatable to the Summit (especially Denver) than GCU, even if the Summit is bleeding members.

I still think GCU would eventually get run off by a FBS league (see Sun Belt's treatment of Denver), although winning in basketball could go help the the other members "back east" overlook their differences.

(08-12-2018 11:26 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 08:19 PM)Lopes87 Wrote:  If this were to go down I highly doubt this group would keep UMKC as the non football school from the WAC. If there is a hold over from the WAC it would be GCU as the non football school.

Oral Roberts, Omaha, Denver, and Western Illinois would love UMKC in their league and with the adds of Utah Valley, Seattle, and Cal Baptist you would have a midwest league with markets in Seattle/LA/Salt Lake City/Denver/Tulsa/Omaha/KC/and Macomb... Travel partners would be

Seattle/CBU
UVU/Denver
ORU/Omaha
UMKC/WIU

This said league would be ran by Seattle CBU UVU.

I could definitely see that happening - I guess it comes down to whether UMKC would want to leave the reconstituted WAC at which they are basically at the geographic center, or the Summit. UMKC may be more palatable to the Summit (especially Denver) than GCU, even if the Summit is bleeding members.

I still think GCU would eventually get run off by a FBS league (see Sun Belt's treatment of Denver), although winning in basketball could go help the the other members "back east" overlook their differences.

I'm not sure Denver would care as much now as they did 5/6 years ago as GCU was FP and GCU wasnt the only reason why Denver wanted out of the WAC there was a school named UVU. I also don't think is this fictional land you and I are talking about UMKC still doesnt has any real say or input on where they go. They are a true tag along school.

(08-12-2018 11:20 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 07:52 PM)NoDak Wrote:  DavidSt seems to be confusing the time when DI schools were allowed into DIII to play non scholarship football, and then move up to FBS. The NCAA has forbid that practice for almost two decades.

UCSB was a D3 in football after reviving it in the 80s, and dropped it again for good in 1992 after the NCAA ruling.

Then, UAB football at D3 and upgraded to FBS.
UCF football at D2 and upgraded to FBS.

I remember Buffalo's football team was in D3. Saw scores between them and Buffalo State, a cross town rivals back then.

Now, since there are no rules saying a D2 school could be invited to FBS, but that NAIA and D3 schools can not since they have to make a stop at D2 for 8 years before they could move up. Right now, West Texas A&M, UTPB, University of Charleston, Kingsville, Commerce, Midwestern State, Valdosta State and maybe schools like Central Missouri, Azusa Pacific, Central Oklahoma, Grand Valley State, Dixie State and Slippery Rock all have stadiums at the FBS levels or could have temp seatings that could reach 15,000.

Azusa Pacific, LA TV market could be a future MWC candidate if the LA area Big West schools do not restart their programs.
West Texas A&M in the Amarillo tv market could be a future candidate. Build up the stadiums for the city and for the on-campus. Could be a future site for a Bowl game like The Western Sizzling Bowl, or a future home for Outback Steakhouse Bowl. That part of Texas is cattle country, and known for their steaks.
Charleston in West Virginia is a good target in the future for the MAC. They used to be rivals to West Virginia and Marshall in the old days. Charleston is one of the larger cities in the state.
Midwestern State in Wichita Falls is in the Dallas/Fort Worth tv market, but they also have their own tv stations. They are pretty far removed from the whole Dallas Metroplex.
Valdosta State could represent the large populated area in southern Georgia.
Central Oklahoma is in the OKC metro area. They would be on the northern end of the market. Having them up at the FBS level might help get both them and Tulsa get more competitive in all sports. They both are off the I45 corridor. The state of Oklahoma could form a new bowl game for G5 called The Sooner Bowl.

I think those schools would have a much better abilities to jump from D2 to FBS. You have the cities involvement, donors, students enrollment and in some cases, endowments to make the leap.

(08-12-2018 05:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

UAB and UCF had already been non-football DI schools for years. Get a clue.

That and UCF had been 1-AA for 6 years before moving up. Also, UAB was in transition as the rules changed to require D-1 schools with D-3 football to upgrade to D-1. UAB was already in Conference USA for all other sports and the Pioneer League wasn't gonna work if Legion Field was to be their home.

(08-13-2018 08:52 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 05:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

UAB and UCF had already been non-football DI schools for years. Get a clue.

That and UCF had been 1-AA for 6 years before moving up. Also, UAB was in transition as the rules changed to require D-1 schools with D-3 football to upgrade to D-1. UAB was already in Conference USA for all other sports and the Pioneer League wasn't gonna work if Legion Field was to be their home.

Some sites are saying differently with UCF. Said they went from D2 straight to FBS in 1996. Said they had no stop over in FCS. Other sites disagree on the status of West Texas A&M. Some said they were an Independent FBS team from 1978 to until they dropped down to D2 with all other sports in the MVC. Others said they were never an FBS Independent. MVC and Southern University were FBS conferences until 1982 some sites have said. With the 15,000 attendance rules, some schools made the cut while others did not. We wound up having a lot of Independent schools in football after 1982. I think Southland would have been considered an FBS conference between 1978 and 1982, or conference named before then. Several schools back then in the MVC, OVC, Southland, Southern, Patriot and CAA have wound up homeless in football with the rules changes. One of them was Appalachian State who was an FBS Independent in the early 1980s. Ivy League was also an FBS conference back between 1978 and 1982. They did not liked what the big dogs keep changing the rules on the NCAA.

(08-12-2018 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-12-2018 04:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  2018-19 DI manual here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D119.pdf

A cursory read doesn't seem to reveal any rule preventing a DII school reclassifying to DI from immediately joining the FBS. If there is indeed no such rule, then as John says, it's probably due to the absurdity of the notion.

May not be hard to heard of, but it have happened in the past with UAB and I believe UCF in 1996. UAB went from D3 Independent to 1A.

1996:
UAB football at the FBS level after moving up from D3 in 1993. Very short year span to do that.
So, West Texas A&M could go that route like being a D3 independent for a year, then FCS independent for a couple of years. Then joining the WAC in year 4 moving up. Unlike UAB or UCF and some others. West Texas A&M have never dropped their football, or starting it from scratch.

Buffalo went D-1 to D-3 to 1-AA to 1-A in their history

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/sports/17suny.html